Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


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If these taxes weren't avoidable, which they obviously are; then of course companies will take them into account. If the Government introduces a £15 minimum wage, what do you think the first thing every company will do? Increase prices to take this into account. If you feel that the collection of company owners in the UK will be happy reducing their salary then you're very much mistaken.

Second time I'm having to repeat myself with you. Wages are a cost. They are factored into the price of the product. Coporation tax is paid on profit. This is not a cost. This can't be added to the price of the product because of competition.


The statistics show that abolishing University tuition fee's will not increase the amount of people going to University or the amount of jobs that are available that require University education. Therefore you are incorrect when you say everyone gets richer.

Likewise the poorest in society generally aren't in a position to benefit for University education, so again they don't get richer. They get poorer as shit falls downwards so they end up paying for a service that they will not use. A much better idea is to put this money into Primary/Secondary School education in the poorest area's to give them a better chance.

It doesn't take a genius to figure that more people will take up a higher education if they didn't have to pay for it
 
Russia's bullying (which the UK agreed with the EU to stand against) started long before the invasion. Also note that

http://uk.businessinsider.com/britain-ukraine-plus-brexit-deal-2017-1?r=UK&IR=T

"The agreement with the Ukraine is unlikely to satisfy the United Kingdom as regards the scope of trade liberalisation because it contains numerous restrictions on market access particularly for cross-border services. The United Kingdom will probably require better access to the EU internal market, primarily in the interests of the British finance industry," the report notes.

So basically the UK will need to ask for more than what Ukraine got. Which lets be honest, it simply does not deserve. There again, Global Britain can live without preferential treatment with Europe right? That's what the likes of UKIP said.


Russia tries to bully every one of its former USSR members.

The EU either didn't know, didn't realise or simply chose to ignore what Putin's reaction was going to be.

As for the rest of your comment - precisely why does the UK not deserve, at least, a simliar trading status as Ukraine ?

I know - because....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/07/uk-must-pay-price-for-brexit-says-francois-hollande
 
Russia tries to bully every one of its former USSR members.

The EU either didn't know, didn't realise or simply chose to ignore what Putin's reaction was going to be.

As for the rest of your comment - precisely why does the UK not deserve, at least, a simliar trading status as Ukraine ?

I know - because....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/07/uk-must-pay-price-for-brexit-says-francois-hollande

The EU is slowly building its reputation as a big player at world's stage. It wasn't the case in the past when it acted as the US backing vocalist but now things are changing

Regarding the rest of your comment - If Scotland decides to leave the UK do you think that Westminster would provide it with a similar/better deal then it already has? Before you answer that, imagine if before that deal was signed, Nicole Sturgeon decides to compare the UK with a nazi regime and one of her MPs spent years insulting the UK in all possible ways.

Ukraine is perceived as a victim from an EU whose eager to become a big player as the US is and must therefore help potential allies in need. The UK is perceived as a competitor and in some ways as a turncloak.
 
The saddest thing about Brexit, is the rhetoric used by the Conservative party was complete guff. They never used the tools given to them to curb immigration, because they didn't want to.

Tool 1 - Changes to taxation.

I've mentioned this many times on here, but simply changing taxation could have cut immigration fairly drastically. They actually made it worse, by increasing the 'take home pay' from low paying jobs (not that I am against that).
Non-UK residents, who are citizens of EEA states, are entitled to a personal allowance and this allows residents in other EU countries to work temporarily in the UK without paying tax. This goes further than other EU states and the government would be entitled to remove the personal allowance from non-UK residents.

The government could go further and remove the personal allowance for new residents in the UK for a period of time. For example, a person who comes in the UK would not receive a personal allowance for say five years. Those who have left the UK and are returning to the UK could be entitled to the personal allowance if they have been resident in the UK for five years at some earlier time.

This would not prevent a person from coming to the UK, but it would mean that he would pay UK tax at a minimum of 20% on all his earnings and reduce the incentive for him to come.

Somebody earning £10,000 would pay tax of £2,000 and have take home pay (ignoring national insurance contributions) of £8,000. The relative impact of the abolition diminishes the more a person earns and has no impact on those earning so much that they do not get the personal allowance.

What is peculiar is that the UK should not need to come out of the EU to make this change. Tax is a UK matter and not a EU matter. Unlike benefits, it is not expressly dealt with in the treaty. Entitlement to the allowance would be denied by reference to residence rather than nationality. It might be attacked on the grounds of indirect discrimination, but special situations such as on the Irish border where people live outside the UK and have permanent jobs in the UK could be dealt with.
https://infacts.org/government-use-taxation-restrict-immigration/

Now there are sensible reasons not to have implemented this, you can question whether it's fair, whether it will increase poverty, how it will affect returning ex-pats and why the government should have to resort to such backwards taxation anyway... but it was a tool that no government chose to use to curb immigration.

And actually, when the worst part if EU immigration is the reduction in low-skilled wages over time, this would have reversed that.

Tool 2 - Ask migrants without a job for three months to leave.

David Cameron claimed he'd got a concession that allowed migrants that haven't had a job here for 6 months to be asked to leave. But we already had that right.

Directive 2004/38/EC introduces EU citizenship as the basic status for nationals of the Member States when they exercise their right to move and reside freely on EU territory. For the first three months, every EU citizen has the right to reside on the territory of another EU country with no conditions or formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport. For longer periods, the host Member State may require a citizen to register his or her presence within a reasonable and non-discriminatory period of time.

Migrant workers’ right to reside for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions, which vary depending on the citizen’s status: for EU citizens who are not workers or self-employed, the right of residence depends on their having sufficient resources not to become a burden on the host Member State’s social assistance system, and having sickness insurance. EU citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a period of five years of uninterrupted legal residence.
And we (Theresa May/David Cameron) just didn't use it.
Home Office figures do not show how many people have been deported on the basis of being a burden to the UK since the rules came in, but the numbers are thought to be low.

Tool 3 - Ask migrants to register with the local government,

Pretty much every other country requires you to register with the local government.

Tool 4 - Ask everyone to get Health Insurance (UK Citz would use the NHS)

A bit of a weird one. Healthcare is entirely devolved to the countries in question. This goes against the whole point of the NHS, but...

You are allowed to require people working in the UK to have private Health Insurance. You could also give everyone who has been in the UK for over a year "NHS Health Insurance." EU migrants would still get this NHS Health Insurance after a year, but would need to get their own Health Insurance to start with...

There are any number of tools available. And yet, the Conservative government didn't choose to use any of them. Why? Because Immigration is good for the UK.

It's all bollocks.
 
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The American system is an awful example of a liberal economy in truth. The corruption at the top of the Government ends up with numerous "programs" that are bad for the economy, don't help the people they're supposed to and end up perpetually being funded to placate vested interests. Likewise Federal and State lobbyists have far too much power in influencing their economy, which in turn restricts freedom.

I'm neither left or right wing. One of the most left wing policies imaginable is a basic income for the poorest in society which I am in favour of. A gradual decrease of public spending in favour of gradually giving more and more money to the poorest as a universal income would give them greater freedom, greater opportunities and would limit and in a perfect world eventually eradicate Government waste.

Government spending in 2009, prior to the mislabeled "austerity" measures was £634b, compared with over £760b in 2017. That's an increase of £126b or c. 2.5% per year. If we'd have kept spending at £634b think of what we'd be able to do for the the poorest 25% of men, women and children... They could have a universal basic income of £7,750 on top of benefits they already receive (although I'd amalgamate them together for a much higher basic income).

Currently the top 20% of all earners receive an average of c. £8,500 in benefits from the State, compared to the bottom 20% receiving £15,500. To me that's an absurd situation. The top 20% need no real help from the State. If we could realign this so the top 20% got a nice tax break and the bottom 20% received a little more then everyone wins in my view. Especially as the inefficiencies of Government and middle management is currently taking a slice of the cake.

When you think about Government spending to population it really is ridiculous the situation we're in. Spending this year will top £760b on 65m people. Do the Maths as to how much that means our Government is spending per person - well over £11,500 per person. The value for money is absolutely dreadful.

In other words you've bought into a form of well intentioned Libertarianism. The only problem with which is that it doesn't actually work. It doesn't work because the needs of individuals can be wildly different due to a whole range of reasons, and can fluctuate wildly over time.

Let's take your example of the amount of government spending on average spent on each person. Now the key word there is average. One person might require a huge amount of home care, or have a lot of kids that require more child benefit, or x, or y, or z. Now you've just handed that person a lump sum and said there you go, better hope you don't need more help than that because otherwise you're stuffed. Plus you've just handed it to people who didn't actually need it in the first place.

Oh and more than that, these things people need will no long have a government department arranging the help and using mass purchasing power or whatever, instead each person will just have to get on with it and provide for themselves using the cash given. They might be sick, or desperately trying to raise a houseful of kids, or look after a terminally ill family member, but they've had their money and they'll just have to make their own arrangements, right?

There's actually some good arguments for a universal basic income, but one that just replaces government spending would be extremely damaging to a huge number of people.
 
Regarding the rest of your comment - If Scotland decides to leave the UK do you think that Westminster would provide it with a similar/better deal then it already has? Before you answer that, imagine if before that deal was signed, Nicole Sturgeon decides to compare the UK with a nazi regime and one of her MPs spent years insulting the UK in all possible ways.


Her and Mr MacWobbly have had a whole career blaming England for everything - and there's unlikley to be any deal to sign now, so we'll never know.

But you have a point - no, the rest of the UK would probably tell Scotland ' It's what you wanted '....
 
Regarding the rest of your comment - If Scotland decides to leave the UK do you think that Westminster would provide it with a similar/better deal then it already has? Before you answer that, imagine if before that deal was signed, Nicole Sturgeon decides to compare the UK with a nazi regime and one of her MPs spent years insulting the UK in all possible ways.


Her and Mr MacWobbly have had a whole career blaming England for everything - and there's unlikley to be any deal to sign now, so we'll never know.

But you have a point - no, the rest of the UK would probably tell Scotland ' It's what you wanted '....

That what the UK did with the EU and that's the same reaction I expect (not want) the EU to have with the UK. Ultimately we're talking here about human beings (UK politicians, EU politicians etc) who have the tendency to allow emotions getting the better of them. In 5-10 years time things will probably cool down, the current politicians would not be in Westminster/Brussels anymore and the time will be ripe for both parties to sit around the negotiating table and act like mature people. However, I cant see such thing happening soon.

Also note that while I love the Scots, I don't think its fair for Scotland to have one foot inside the EU and another foot inside Brexit UK.
 
In other words you've bought into a form of well intentioned Libertarianism. The only problem with which is that it doesn't actually work. It doesn't work because the needs of individuals can be wildly different due to a whole range of reasons, and can fluctuate wildly over time.

Let's take your example of the amount of government spending on average spent on each person. Now the key word there is average. One person might require a huge amount of home care, or have a lot of kids that require more child benefit, or x, or y, or z. Now you've just handed that person a lump sum and said there you go, better hope you don't need more help than that because otherwise you're stuffed. Plus you've just handed it to people who didn't actually need it in the first place.

Oh and more than that, these things people need will no long have a government department arranging the help and using mass purchasing power or whatever, instead each person will just have to get on with it and provide for themselves using the cash given. They might be sick, or desperately trying to raise a houseful of kids, or look after a terminally ill family member, but they've had their money and they'll just have to make their own arrangements, right?

There's actually some good arguments for a universal basic income, but one that just replaces government spending would be extremely damaging to a huge number of people.
I used a simple example. Naturally there would be a degree of banding in terms of how the basic income would be distributed. Almost a negative taxation if you will, which would be banded just like positive taxation is banded.

Again I didn't say it is completely replacing all public spending - I said returning to merely 2009 levels of spending would allow us to provide the poorest a basic income at a level similar to the £7,750 stated previously. People would still have access to the public services, they'd just be curtailed to cater for the poor, rather than for everyone which naturally includes the wealthy and very wealthy.

In terms of the economies of scale you're talking about these are more than gobbled up by Government inefficiencies and competition, so people would be guaranteed to see a saving.
Can you please name me a country who uses your sort of reasoning? That would be easier for people like myself to understand exactly what you have in mind
I think Hong Kong did exceptionally well 1970 - 1997 with this kind of model, before they were "returned" to Chinese sovereignty. They saw incredibly high GDP growth fueled by a low tax economy. They have gone from a poor, irrelevant country to one whose GDP per capita is among the highest in the world. Much higher than almost any non-oil fueled country in the world, including the US, UK, Sweden, Germany, Denmark, Canada, France, Belgium, Austria etc. Their taxation level to GDP ratio is 13% for example, compared with the UK around 35%.

Don't assume this is me saying Hong Kong is a paragon of virtue (certainly now that they have Chinese involvement). It's a far "younger" economy where such rapid growth has caused it's own problems. They've kept taxation very low in order to fuel further rapid economic growth; with the view that a strong economy is better for everyone.

Their latest budget shows a large budget surplus of over £9b with fiscal reserves surpassing £100b on a GDP. This is on a GDP level around 12% that of the UK (so the surplus for comparison would be around £75b with fiscal reserves of £833b).

Can you imagine how fantastic it would be to have a fiscal reserve of £833b, rather than a debt of £1.56 trillion? Instead of a £43b annual interest bill we'd have interest receipts of over £20b. This additional c. £65b per year is more than our total current spend on our Education, Police, Fire & Legal system combined!
Second time I'm having to repeat myself with you. Wages are a cost. They are factored into the price of the product. Coporation tax is paid on profit. This is not a cost. This can't be added to the price of the product because of competition.

It doesn't take a genius to figure that more people will take up a higher education if they didn't have to pay for it
If you genuinely believe that increasing corporation tax doesn't change people's behavior then there's no point discussing the issue further. Put it this way - the largest companies that I know firstly decide what they want to pay in corporation tax; then they work backwards as to what to declare to make this a reality.

If the Government found a way of changing how companies announce their profits then the same companies would find a way around this to allow their owners to earn the same net income. The wealthiest and most powerful people in society aren't going to allow a Government policy to hit them in their pockets. In fact I'd say pissing them off would have the reverse effect.
 
If you genuinely believe that increasing corporation tax doesn't change people's behavior then there's no point discussing the issue further. Put it this way - the largest companies that I know firstly decide what they want to pay in corporation tax; then they work backwards as to what to declare to make this a reality.

If the Government found a way of changing how companies announce their profits then the same companies would find a way around this to allow their owners to earn the same net income. The wealthiest and most powerful people in society aren't going to allow a Government policy to hit them in their pockets. In fact I'd say pissing them off would have the reverse effect.

You're shifting the argument because you were wrong on the original point. You decided a company can pass on the 'cost' of corporation tax to the consumer to which I showed they can't. You've now decided to make this an argument about tax dodging as you have no answer to the first point.

Just because they dodge it doesn't mean you give in to it. Keep simplifying the tax code, keep forcing greater transparency and you'll get them eventually
 
finneh said:
In terms of the economies of scale you're talking about these are more than gobbled up by Government inefficiencies and competition, so people would be guaranteed to see a saving.

Based on what exactly? Every Libertarian is convinced government is implicitly wasteful, yet in the main example we have, healthcare, the UK spends considerably less than the free market driven approach taken by America and with considerably better coverage and outcomes in most areas.
 
You're shifting the argument because you were wrong on the original point. You decided a company can pass on the 'cost' of corporation tax to the consumer to which I showed they can't. You've now decided to make this an argument about tax dodging as you have no answer to the first point.

Just because they dodge it doesn't mean you give in to it. Keep simplifying the tax code, keep forcing greater transparency and you'll get them eventually

You're plain wrong.

Insurance Premium Tax has increased from 5% to 10% over the last few years. Do you know what has happened to insurance premiums? They've increased by exactly the same amount.

Not a single insurance company has "swallowed" these increases... They've merely passed them straight on to their customers - businesses and consumers alike.

Again a policy that appeared to be hitting those nasty multi-national insurers who could afford it has actually hit small businesses and the poorest in society who could barely afford their car and home insurance as it was.

Shit flows downwards... Every single time.
 
Second time I'm having to repeat myself with you. Wages are a cost. They are factored into the price of the product. Coporation tax is paid on profit. This is not a cost. This can't be added to the price of the product because of competition.
Well, tax is a cost of doing business tbf. Companies can and do raise prices. Competition works well in some sectors, eg supermarkets, but there are plenty of things that people don't buy on price, from iPhones to United shirts and Nike trainers.
 
It might be fairer to have a reduction in Corpn Tax rates and introduce a new Turnover Tax in addition to the Corpn Tax.

That would make tax avoidance for 'those' companies who take the piss ( and we all know who they are ) with clever Transfer Pricing and Internal /IntraGroup charges for things such as Trade Marks, Patents, Corporate Marketing and Advertising, etc, a little more difficult.
 
Based on what exactly? Every Libertarian is convinced government is implicitly wasteful, yet in the main example we have, healthcare, the UK spends considerably less than the free market driven approach taken by America and with considerably better coverage and outcomes in most areas.

Do you know the reason that we have competition laws throughout the world that actively break up and discourage monopolies? It's because having one company who has an absolute captive market is bad for competition and awful for the consumer.

Imagine a theoretical scenario whereby Eon bought every other energy supplier in the UK. Then imagine over the next 30 years due to consistent managerial incompetency they end up with ridiculous overheads. However naturally as there is no other competition these overheads are covered annually by increasing the cost of electricity to the consumer. No-one would have a clue whether they were incredibly efficient or not, all we'd know is that the price of energy is going up every year, whilst the service levels were getting worse every year.

Now apply this example to the NHS. Imagine for one second it is a completely mismanaged. How would we know? Well first of all we'd probably see them requesting additional funds from the treasury every year just to keep their heads above water. Secondly whilst receiving these extra funds every single year we'd probably see the service level getting worse every year. Does this sound familiar at all? NHS targets being missed by greater and greater margins whilst spending on the NHS increases every single year.

Healthcare spending:

1985 - £40b or 4% of GDP
1995 - £60b or 5% of GDP
2005 - £110b or 6.5% of GDP
2015 - £145b or over 7.5% of GDP

See the picture? We are hugely increasing spending on healthcare not only in terms of spending but also in terms of spending as a proportion of GDP. At the same time we're seeing declining standards and people lambasting the current Government for "ruining or NHS", despite them throwing record levels of money at the problem both as a % of GDP, per capita, compared to inflation and in pounds and pennies.

Now imagine we kept the NHS exactly as it is but the Government agreed that any private company that matched the current Government costs for procedures, surgeries, checkups etc; they would pay this cost for them. The consumer would have absolute free reign to choose whether to visit a Government health centre or a private one.

I can guarantee the NHS would either become much more efficient as a result of a bit of healthy competition, or it would get closed down due to people preferring a much better private service for the same cost. What would happen to private competitors if they couldn't compete with the NHS? They'd close down.

I literally can see no downside to allowing this consumer freedom. If the NHS is incredibly efficient then it has absolutely nothing to worry about; private sector firms will open up but quickly close down due to an inability to compete and consumers preferring the NHS option. If the NHS isn't then the consumer gets a better service for the same cost.

The US is dreadful in terms of healthcare provision, for a plethora of reasons that aren't related to consumer choice.
 
It might be fairer to have a reduction in Corpn Tax rates and introduce a new Turnover Tax in addition to the Corpn Tax.

That would make tax avoidance for 'those' companies who take the piss ( and we all know who they are ) with clever Transfer Pricing and Internal /IntraGroup charges for things such as Trade Marks, Patents, Corporate Marketing and Advertising, etc, a little more difficult.
A turnover tax would cripple high volume, low margin businesses tbf- turnover is no measure of profitability.
To properly combat corporate tax avoidance, you need full international co-operation and a concerted global push to truly tackle it.
 
Do you know the reason that we have competition laws throughout the world that actively break up and discourage monopolies? It's because having one company who has an absolute captive market is bad for competition and awful for the consumer.

It's bad for the consumer, because if you control the entire market then after you wipe out your competition you can set prices basically wherever you like. Something that isn't a problem for a public service.

Imagine a theoretical scenario whereby Eon bought every other energy supplier in the UK. Then imagine over the next 30 years due to consistent managerial incompetency they end up with ridiculous overheads. However naturally as there is no other competition these overheads are covered annually by increasing the cost of electricity to the consumer. No-one would have a clue whether they were incredibly efficient or not, all we'd know is that the price of energy is going up every year, whilst the service levels were getting worse every year.

Now apply this example to the NHS. Imagine for one second it is a completely mismanaged. How would we know? Well first of all we'd probably see them requesting additional funds from the treasury every year just to keep the heads above water. Secondly whilst receiving these extra funds every single year we'd probably see the service level getting worse every year. Does this sound familiar at all? NHS targets being missed by greater and greater margins whilst spending on the NHS increases every single year.

We can measure result with public services on various metrics from waiting times, survival rates etc dependant on the type of service. Instead of switching to a new supplier you're supposed to get off your arse and vote for a party that runs it better. Or go private if you wish, which last I checked wasn't illegal.

Healthcare spending:

1985 - £40b or 4% of GDP
1995 - £60b or 5% of GDP
2005 - £110b or 6.5% of GDP
2015 - £145b or over 7.5% of GDP

See the picture? We are hugely increasing spending on healthcare not only in terms of spending but also in terms of spending as a proportion of GDP. At the same time we're seeing declining standards and people lambasting the current Government for "ruining or NHS", despite them throwing record levels of money at the problem both as a % of GDP, per capita, compared to inflation and in pounds and pennies.

This is completely disingenuous. The cost is going up because of our aging population, largely because of the NHS doing an excellent job of keeping people alive.

Now imagine we kept the NHS exactly as it is but the Government agreed that any private company that matched the current Government costs for procedures, surgeries, checkups etc; they would pay this cost for them. The consumer would have absolute free reign to choose whether to visit a Government health centre or a private one.

I can guarantee the NHS would either become much more efficient as a result of a bit of healthy competition, or it would get closed down due to people preferring a much better private service for the same cost. What would happen to private competitors if they couldn't compete with the NHS? They'd close down.

I literally can see no downside to allowing this consumer freedom. If the NHS is incredibly efficient then it has absolutely nothing to worry about; private sector firms will open up but quickly close down due to an inability to compete and consumers preferring the NHS option. If the NHS isn't then the consumer gets a better service for the same cost.

The US is dreadful in terms of healthcare provision, for a plethora of reasons that aren't related to consumer choice.

Jesus fecking christ, its like listening to a right wing American. Healthcare is not about bloody choice, its about sick and vulnerable people getting the help they need to not be sick or die. The idea that any one of us outside the healthcare field have the information to tell which of various healthcare companies provided a better likelihood of us not being sick or dying is nonsensical, all it means is the company with the best advertising and the best salespeople get the customers. And meanwhile the NHS gets bled of desperately needed resources because Johney feckForBrains decided that HealthForYouStars.ltd must be better because they have that nice celebrity on the TV adverts.

Look at bloody America for what 'choice' does, look at the sick people who wake up in hospital to find an insurance company agent badgering them to fill out endless forms, the same companies who will then try with every trick they have to avoid paying out on any particular service the hospital told you you needed. All those people going bankrupt each year, all those people running desperate charity appeals to try and get enough money to save their loved ones.

I don't say this as a personal attack on you, but seriously feck private healthcare and feck anyone who tries to contaminate the UK with it at the expense of the NHS. This is the thickest red line I have ideologically, and I am the moral enemy of anyone who tries to break up the system that has kept my family and friends alive for the last 70+ years.
 
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It's bad for the consumer, because if you control the entire market then after you wipe out your competition you can set prices basically wherever you like. Something that isn't a problem for a public service.



We can measure result with public services on various metrics from waiting times, survival rates etc dependant on the type of service. Instead of switching to a new supplier you're supposed to get off your arse and vote for a party that runs it better. Or go private if you wish, which last I checked wasn't illegal.



This is completely disingenuous. The cost is going up because of our aging population, largely because of the NHS doing an excellent job of keeping people alive.



I can guarantee the NHS would either become much more efficient as a result of a bit of healthy competition, or it would get closed down due to people preferring a much better private service for the same cost. What would happen to private competitors if they couldn't compete with the NHS? They'd close down.

I literally can see no downside to allowing this consumer freedom. If the NHS is incredibly efficient then it has absolutely nothing to worry about; private sector firms will open up but quickly close down due to an inability to compete and consumers preferring the NHS option. If the NHS isn't then the consumer gets a better service for the same cost.

The US is dreadful in terms of healthcare provision, for a plethora of reasons that aren't related to consumer choice.

Jesus fecking christ, its like listening to a right wing American. Healthcare is not about bloody choice, its about sick and vulnerable people getting the help they need to not be sick or die. The idea that any one of us outside the healthcare field have the information to tell which of various healthcare companies provided a better likelihood of us not being sick or dying is nonsensical, all it means is the company with the best advertising and the best salespeople get the customers. And meanwhile the NHS gets bled of desperately needed resources because Johney feckForBrains decided that HealthForYouStars.ltd must be better because they have that nice celebrity on the TV adverts.

Look at bloody America for what 'choice' does, look at the sick people who wake up in hospital to find an insurance company agent badgering them to fill out endless forms, the same companies who will then try with every trick they have to avoid paying out on any particular service the hospital told you you needed. All those people going bankrupt each year, all those people running desperate charity appeals to try and get enough money to save their loved ones.

I don't say this as a personal attack on you, but seriously feck private healthcare and feck anyone who tries to contaminate the UK with it at the expense of the NHS. This is the thickest red line I have ideologically, and I am the moral enemy of anyone who tries to break up the system that has kept my family and friends alive for the last 70+ years.[/QUOTE]

:lol:When I read that last quote you messed up a bit, I thought it was you saying it and you'd suddenly done a gigantic May-esque U-turn.
 
Seems we've cluttered the Brexit thread with enough of our opinions. All I will say is that I believe all Governments run it equally awfully and it's a question of who can patch over the inefficiencies with the biggest pot of gold. Naturally though this isn't sustainable even medium term of we're finding out.

The only choice I therefore have to get better healthcare is to go private, which I do. But I'm saddened that not everyone has that same freedom due to their finances.
 
A turnover tax would cripple high volume, low margin businesses tbf- turnover is no measure of profitability.
To properly combat corporate tax avoidance, you need full international co-operation and a concerted global push to truly tackle it.


Tell me about it - we're in the airline business, and 2.5% Net Profit, Pre Tax, has us jumping for joy.

But you could tinker with it....

Perhaps allow them to deduct from the total Turnover Tax amount payable in each country, the amount already paid in taxes in that country - such as Real Estate Taxes and/or Employer National Insurance Contributions and/or Fuel Taxes.

We'll never be able to stop companies from moving their Corporation Tax Point to the lowest tax country. But allowing them to shift costs around between subsidiaries to selectivly increase or reduce costs in specific countries can be stopped.

You think Starbucks, for instance, would shut up shop in the UK if the UK set an example along the lines I'm suggesting ?

After all, Income Tax is based on how much individuals earn - irrespective of how much they spend. Let's do something along the same lines for companies.

And as this is supposed to be the BREXIT thread, I'll throw in one word - Luxemburg.
 
Tell me about it - we're in the airline business, and 2.5% Net Profit, Pre Tax, has us jumping for joy.

But you could tinker with it....

Perhaps allow them to deduct from the total Turnover Tax amount payable in each country, the amount already paid in taxes in that country - such as Real Estate Taxes and/or Employer National Insurance Contributions and/or Fuel Taxes.

We'll never be able to stop companies from moving their Corporation Tax Point to the lowest tax country. But allowing them to shift costs around between subsidiaries to selectivly increase or reduce costs in specific countries can be stopped.

You think Starbucks, for instance, would shut up shop in the UK if the UK set an example along the lines I'm suggesting ?

After all, Income Tax is based on how much individuals earn - irrespective of how much they spend. Let's do something along the same lines for companies.

And as this is supposed to be the BREXIT thread, I'll throw in one word - Luxemburg.
Reminds me of Richard Branson's quote about 'the best way to become a millionaire is to start as a billionaire and launch an airline'.
Car insurance had an average margin of 0.01% a decade ago, from memory. A real volume game.
Agree that creative accounting needs clamped down on.
 
You're plain wrong.

Insurance Premium Tax has increased from 5% to 10% over the last few years. Do you know what has happened to insurance premiums? They've increased by exactly the same amount.

Not a single insurance company has "swallowed" these increases... They've merely passed them straight on to their customers - businesses and consumers alike.

Again a policy that appeared to be hitting those nasty multi-national insurers who could afford it has actually hit small businesses and the poorest in society who could barely afford their car and home insurance as it was.

Shit flows downwards... Every single time.

Again you're missing the point. Insurance premium tax is a cost. It has to be passed on to the consumer. Coporation tax isn't a cost, it's a tax on profit. It can't be passed on because a competitor can come along and undercut you on price
 
You're plain wrong.

Insurance Premium Tax has increased from 5% to 10% over the last few years. Do you know what has happened to insurance premiums? They've increased by exactly the same amount.

Not a single insurance company has "swallowed" these increases... They've merely passed them straight on to their customers - businesses and consumers alike.

Again a policy that appeared to be hitting those nasty multi-national insurers who could afford it has actually hit small businesses and the poorest in society who could barely afford their car and home insurance as it was.

Shit flows downwards... Every single time.

Insurance tax has nothing to do with insurance companies. The tax is compulsory and past straight on to the HM Revenue. To notion that insurance companies should compensate an increase in insurance tax is ludicrous and ignorant!!!!!!
 
It's like VAT, you can't absorb it it's just wacked on the price and payed by the consumer. Coporation tax is paid by the business
 
Insurance tax has nothing to do with insurance companies. The tax is compulsory and past straight on to the HM Revenue. To notion that insurance companies should compensate an increase in insurance tax is ludicrous and ignorant!!!!!!

Of course they shouldn't... That was my point. The notion that increasing any kind of tax on a business doesn't affect the prices they sell their goods at is ludicrous.
It's like VAT, you can't absorb it it's just wacked on the price and payed by the consumer. Coporation tax is paid by the business

The point is that businesses won't absorb any extra cost that you try to levy on them. They will just put it onto the cost of goods.

Whether it's an extra £10k in business rates or an extra £10k in corporation tax, they go straight on to the price of goods in order for a company to maintain is dividend level and share price.
 
Of course they shouldn't... That was my point. The notion that increasing any kind of tax on a business doesn't affect the prices they sell their goods at is ludicrous.


The point is that businesses won't absorb any extra cost that you try to levy on them. They will just put it onto the cost of goods.

Whether it's an extra £10k in business rates or an extra £10k in corporation tax, they go straight on to the price of goods in order for a company to maintain is dividend level and share price.

There is absolutely no evidence that insurance tax has any affect what so ever on insurance premiums. End of!
 
The point is that businesses won't absorb any extra cost that you try to levy on them. They will just put it onto the cost of goods.

Whether it's an extra £10k in business rates or an extra £10k in corporation tax, they go straight on to the price of goods in order for a company to maintain is dividend level and share price.

Corporation tax is not a cost. It's a tax on profit. VAT, IPT are consumption taxes paid by the consumer. Business rates are a cost, like rent or utilities and are taken off before you calculate profit

Lets work through your thinking. You decide to make an extra 10k in profit to cover the 10k in corporation tax. You're now liable to extra coporation tax on the extra 10k you've made in profit, another £1900. So you decide to charge the consumer another 1900 hundred. Except now you're liable to another 19% on that 1900 hundred. So you wack the price of you goods up another 200. Now your products are uncompetitivly priced so you don't sell anything and you lose your business. Congratulations
 
Corporation tax is not a cost. It's a tax on profit. VAT, IPT are consumption taxes paid by the consumer. Business rates are a cost, like rent or utilities and are taken off before you calculate profit

Lets work through your thinking. You decide to make an extra 10k in profit to cover the 10k in corporation tax. You're now liable to extra coporation tax on the extra 10k you've made in profit, another £1900. So you decide to charge the consumer another 1900 hundred. Except now you're liable to another 19% on that 1900 hundred. So you wack the price of you goods up another 200. Now your products are uncompetitivly priced so you don't sell anything and you lose your business. Congratulations

Or to put it another way.

You and your competitors have a profit after tax figure of £10m which allows you to pay a solid dividend to all your shareholders. The Government increases taxation which would mean based on the same year you'd only have a profit after tax figure of £8m and would result in a dividend decrease for all shareholders.

What do you and your competitors do? You either cut costs in the form of redundancies, cut costs in the form of wage stagnation or lower bonuses, but if you naturally feel these would harm the business further (ie result in further reduced profits) then you and all your competitors have a clear choice: increase prices or reduce profitability. Businesses tend not to like the latter so as soon as one increases prices, the rest follow suit.

It's somewhat academic though... The Government will never be able to force business to pay more in corporation tax. A comment I heard this week "we pay corporation tax for no other reason than to illustrate to our suppliers and customers that we're a profitable and solid business".
 
Or to put it another way.

You and your competitors have a profit after tax figure of £10m which allows you to pay a solid dividend to all your shareholders. The Government increases taxation which would mean based on the same year you'd only have a profit after tax figure of £8m and would result in a dividend decrease for all shareholders.

What do you and your competitors do? You either cut costs in the form of redundancies, cut costs in the form of wage stagnation or lower bonuses, but if you naturally feel these would harm the business further (ie result in further reduced profits) then you and all your competitors have a clear choice: increase prices or reduce profitability. Businesses tend not to like the latter so as soon as one increases prices, the rest follow suit.

It's somewhat academic though... The Government will never be able to force business to pay more in corporation tax. A comment I heard this week "we pay corporation tax for no other reason than to illustrate to our suppliers and customers that we're a profitable and solid business".

If all businesses raise prices in line then they are not competing but acting as a cartel. Time for the competition authority to step in.
 
Is there any chance that the GBP to EUR conversion rate could improve (after another presumably heavy fall in the coming weeks) to be above current levels before the end of August?

If so, is there a reliable source that forecasts these things somewhere?
 
Is there any chance that the GBP to EUR conversion rate could improve (after another presumably heavy fall in the coming weeks) to be above current levels before the end of August?

I sincerely hope not, I have to regularly send money back to the UK, and the shitty pound is a godsend. ;)
 
You've repeated the point I made earlier, that the main problem is the government charging too much interest on loans, where I think the fair rate should be the lowest possible rate the government itself pays for borrowing, maybe even less with subsidy.

As for the bolded, this would make sense if fewer people were going to university, but the truth is the opposite, in the UK we are now at 50%.

What I take issue with is people who are telling others they shouldn't go to university because they are poor, which is just plain wrong.

But the poorer your upbringing the less likely you are to take on such debt. The stats are conclusive.

And to whatever number of places we decide there should be no fee and a subsistence level non-means tested grant. Education used to be the great leveler and now it is turning into a great divider.
 
I still think it's ridiculous that our government gave this incredibly complex issue to the people of the UK to vote on.
 
Is there any chance that the GBP to EUR conversion rate could improve (after another presumably heavy fall in the coming weeks) to be above current levels before the end of August?

If so, is there a reliable source that forecasts these things somewhere?

Depends which way the negotiations appear to be heading, if it looks to be tending towards a soft Brexit, the pound will probably improve, if it's a hard Brexit the pound will probably suffer.
 
I still think it's ridiculous that our government gave this incredibly complex issue to the people of the UK to vote on.
It's ridiculous that the Conservative government made a big deal out of immigration for 5 years (and even longer than that), then expected to win a pro-immigration vote.

But yeah, it is ridiculous.