Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Smores said:
How the Tories still have even limited popularity in the polls is astounding.
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Not really when you consider the alternatives;
Labour will try to win the next election by borrowing to such an extent our Great, Great, Great, Grandchildren will still be paying off the 'interest only' on the debt in 2080!
The Liberals want yet another Referendum on Brexit (some people never learn do they?) and are led by a man older than me (and that's saying something!).
The Greens want to fill the British islands with windmills on every conceivable hill top and turn off all electricity after 8.00pm each evening, to save energy and they want to save the planet for our 'up to their necks in debt' descendants.
SNP still want Scotland to float off over the north sea and join up with EU so they can enjoy an even greater subsidy to support their main export industry which is exporting Scotsmen/women (world -wide coverage, you can find Scots(persons) anywhere)
Then there is UKIP, that wants...? :lol:
 
GazTheLegend said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

55% of the French people voted against the ratification of the EU constitution.

They were ignored.

That's the definition of losing your sovereignty and your democracy. Rightly or wrongly, the next French government ratified the EU constitution anyway.

I believe that if you held a "Frexit" you would have a similar vote.

Perhaps that's because the people don't understand the consequences fully. The EU becoming more federalised COULD be a power of good, but it's hard to ignore the erosion of choice - especially with forced migration quotas being placed on Hungary, Poland etc.
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People voted against the government and it wasn't even hidden. Most people didn't care about the EU constitution and they still don't.
 
JPRouve said:
People voted against the government and it wasn't even hidden. Most people didn't care about the EU constitution and they still don't.
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That's conjecture. "Most people didn't care". Voter turnout was 69%. More people cared than didn't.
 
The Outsider said:
I have heard we play by the rules and the others don't
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My experience of working for the EU is admittedly dated, but back in the late 90's and early 00's the only two countries who were playing by the rules were Britain and Germany and when it felt like it France as well, but only when they were asked nicely!
 
GazTheLegend said:
That's conjecture. "Most people didn't care". Voter turnout was 69%. More people cared than didn't.
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And the conjuncture is that the government was despised, you noticed that we voted for pro EU presidents since then and in polls the majority is pro EU too. It's always important to know the context.
 
The Outsider said:
True though the cost of any transitional deal will need careful scrutiny and negotiation.
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In a simplier world, the UK would honor its dues that it agreed with (2020) and remain in the EU up till that time. Unfortunately Brexiteers wil not accept that . The EU cannot directly link paying ones dues to a transitional period either else a country like Hungary who barely pays anything into the EU pot will expect a 2-3 year transitional deal for free. What I think will happen is that the UK pays a lump sum in exchange for a transitional deal with no ties attached at the end of it. If anyone wants to leave + it wants a transitional deal to soften the blow then it will have to pay up just like the UK did.
 
C3Pique said:
I ain't your son you condescending piece of shit. And if I was I would be embarrassed to admit it. :)
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That's good, I would hate to think a son of mine used such language in a public place, go wash your mouth out sonny!;)

PS Kentonia and horsechoker seem to think different, they have proof... oh the shame of it!:eek:
 
I Believe said:
Yes, it is irritating when the piper calls the tune...isn't it! It could only be viewed as such in the EU!:lol:
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Its ridiculous irrespective on whom the piper is. The oldest and one of the richest continents in the world should not rely on a third country army to defend itself.

Its also ridiculous how Europe seem to be in some sort of permanent cold war with its powerful neighbour. Mexico doesn't like the US but there are no missles pointing against one another.

Sure Russia (under the Georgian dictator who treated Russians like filth too) did horrible things after WW2. However its been a historical ally to Europe for many many years prior to that. Russia shielded the Roman empire from nomad tribes that would have destroyed it in an instant for centuries. Its wars with the Ottoman empire kept such powerful and often aggressive empire from spreading further in Europe's territory. The Russians were also the main responsible in getting rid of Napoleon and Hitler. FFS Communism (a European concept) was able to conquer (and cripple) Russia because of a world war that Europe had started. Not to forget that they rarely start wars on our doorstep either.

Europe should rebuild a decent relationship with its powerful neighbour. If the US want to play soldiers with Russia then they should do it on their own soil with their own men.
 
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devilish said:
Unfortunately Brexiteers wil not accept that .
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Who says they won't? Boris heh heh heh!

For many Brexit voters getting out of the EU is the main thing, so a temporary solution is we take back control of our borders and start to make trade deals elsewhere, now and we then remain in the EU until 2020, paying only what we owe/promised until the end of the current budget and then have a 'leaving do' at the end of 2020... simples!
 
I Believe said:
Who says they won't? Boris heh heh heh!

For many Brexit voters people getting out of the EU is the main thing, so a temporary solution is we take back control of our borders and start to make trade deals elsewhere, now and we then remain in the EU until 2020, paying only what we owe/promised until the end of the current budget and then have a 'leaving do' at the end of 2020... simples!
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Staying in the EU till 2020 will mean abiding to FOM rules and an inability to sign trade deals. You can't be in and out at the same time.
 
devilish said:
You can't be in and out at the same time.
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Want to bet? There is no other way around it except everyone falling off the end of the proverbial cliff... lets be honest nobody really wants that, so both will have to blink at the same time, us on payments, the EU on movement of peoples and trade deals.. like I said simples!
 
I Believe said:
Its not the piper, who is the issue, its who pays him! Don't think you really understood that one?;)
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The US has its own interest to safeguard and Europe has theirs. Its warmongering in Africa and the ME might make sense for them but it had burdened Europe with millions of immigrants. Not to forget that under the current situation its almost impossible to find an amicable solution with Russia whom, prior the cold war, had mostly been a great ally to Europe. No wonder why Turkey is slowly but surely turning its allegiance elsewhere.
 
I Believe said:
Want to bet? There is no other way around it except everyone falling off the end of the proverbial cliff... lets be honest nobody really wants that, so both will have to blink at the same time, us on payments, the EU on movement of peoples and trade deals.. like I said simples!
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There's a third solution which I think will be the more likely to happen. The UK will pay a lump sum (which is basically the money it agreed to spend prior to Brexit but whom the EU will be careful not to mention it) and it will get a transitional deal in exchange. That will give the UK some breathing space to test the waters by trying to sign trade deals by itself. If its successful it will sign a CETA deal with the EU. If it isnt successful then the Tory party will lose the next GE, JC will move to an EFTA/EEA deal and the situation will remain pretty much the same to what it is now.

In my opinion this plan is already happening. No wonder why the incompetent but highly ambitious Boris is throwing his dummy at TM. If he + Fox fail to do their job then they will be the ones to blame for the Tory defeat in next GE and the failure of hard Brexit. That will ruin their political career for good. It would be very hard for someone who thinks he's Churchill Mark 2 to be remembered as the Chamberlain Mk2 (ie a person who placed so much effort on something that was pretty useless)
 
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JPRouve said:
And the conjuncture is that the government was despised, you noticed that we voted for pro EU presidents since then and in polls the majority is pro EU too. It's always important to know the context.
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That's conjecture -again- though. Just because since then, the French have voted in pro European presidents, that does not make the French people themselves pro European Union.

Correlation does not imply causation.

I would say that I could assume that since brexit, a lot of French may feel more affinity towards the Eu project, but I really don't know. It's quite possible. But the popularity of Marine le Pen did cause me to wonder. She is an awful candidate and a holocaust denier - and she still came extremely close to becoming your president!
 
devilish said:
That will give the UK some breathing space to test the waters by trying to sign trade deals by itself
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Thought you said we couldn't be 'in and out' at the same time?

I agree breathing space is necessary, but on the control of borders/ free movement issues as well as trade deals, otherwise your original proposition about being unacceptable to the Brexiteers is true. If Britain is to part with a penny, as continuing normal budget payments or a one off, it will need quid pro quo on Trade and Movement of peoples to get it acceptable to everyone! It depends on how much the EU really does want a deal , Junker blew it with Cameron, can't see Merkel a) letting Junker decide, b) making the same mistake again, unless of course, she really does want Germany to be the 'super power' in Europe, albeit through the guise of an integrated EU? But that's a different conspiracy theory, definitely requiring Britain being on the outside!;)
 
devilish said:
Its warmongering in Africa and the ME might make sense for them
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That was under previous administrations/presidents, don't think it will be the same with Trump, he said he's not into nation building and will 'squash' anyone who tries to attack the USA. Military planning on the back of a fag packet!
 
I Believe said:
Thought you said we couldn't be 'in and out' at the same time?

I agree breathing space is necessary, but on the control of borders/ free movement issues as well as trade deals, otherwise your original proposition about being unacceptable to the Brexiteers is true. If Britain is to part with a penny, as continuing normal budget payments or a one off, it will need quid pro quo on Trade and Movement of peoples to get it acceptable to everyone! It depends on how much the EU really does want a deal , Junker blew it with Cameron, can't see Merkel a) letting Junker decide, b) making the same mistake again, unless of course, she really does want Germany to be the 'super power' in Europe, albeit through the guise of an integrated EU? But that's a different conspiracy theory, definitely requiring Britain being on the outside!;)
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Transitional deal will be out of the EU (no rebates, no EU vote, no MEPs etc) but with temporary access to the single market. Its more similar to a temporary EEA/EFTA deal with rights to sign trade deals (or at least negotiating them). I also believe that the UK will have to backtrack on FOM but will retain its ability to sign trade deals during that period.

Also Juncker didn't blew anything with Cameron. Cameron expected the rules to change in a record short period of time and he tied it all of that to a threat which would hurt the UK more then it would hurt the EU. That wasn't feasable. Its would be like NS coming to Westminster saying that the UK should allow Scotland to remain in the EU else it will leave the UK. We all know what the answer to that would be.

Brexit was all Tory government doing. They promised a referendum to keep Ukip at bay. Then they expected the EU to bail them out which it didn't. Then they turned it into a frigging cat fight and went on losing the referendum.
 
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GazTheLegend said:
That's conjecture -again- though. Just because since then, the French have voted in pro European presidents, that does not make the French people themselves pro European Union.

Correlation does not imply causation.

I would say that I could assume that since brexit, a lot of French may feel more affinity towards the Eu project, but I really don't know. It's quite possible. But the popularity of Marine le Pen did cause me to wonder. She is an awful candidate and a holocaust denier - and she still came extremely close to becoming your president!
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Le Pen is a great example, her party is currently in a shamble because they want to pivot toward a EU friendly agenda and some leaders don't like it. The reason they want to be closer to the EU is because the french are closer to the EU.
Once again while I see your point, you are wrong because you don't know the country you are talking about, which is fine since we are not exactly easy to read.

PS: Le Pen isn't popular.
 
I Believe said:
That was under previous administrations/presidents, don't think it will be the same with Trump, he said he's not into nation building and will 'squash' anyone who tries to attack the USA. Military planning on the back of a fag packet!
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Just this week he said he wasn't into nation building or telling other countries how to run their affairs, and then about 5 minutes later insulted Venezuela and threatened to take action against them unless they restored democracy. He also threatened to wipe out North Korea, and impose sanctions on Cuba. None of these are what you'd traditionally consider 'isolationist' actions.
 
I Believe said:
Not really when you consider the alternatives;
Labour will try to win the next election by borrowing to such an extent our Great, Great, Great, Grandchildren will still be paying off the 'interest only' on the debt in 2080!
The Liberals want yet another Referendum on Brexit (some people never learn do they?) and are led by a man older than me (and that's saying something!).
The Greens want to fill the British islands with windmills on every conceivable hill top and turn off all electricity after 8.00pm each evening, to save energy and they want to save the planet for our 'up to their necks in debt' descendants.
SNP still want Scotland to float off over the north sea and join up with EU so they can enjoy an even greater subsidy to support their main export industry which is exporting Scotsmen/women (world -wide coverage, you can find Scots(persons) anywhere)
Then there is UKIP, that wants...? :lol:
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Are you the Daily Mail? I always worried it would become sentient
 
devilish said:
Transitional deal will be out of the EU (no rebates, no EU vote, no MEPs etc) but with temporary access to the single market
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If transitional deal means we are out, then no payments, we are either 'in' with special compensation on movement and trade and continue to pay our dues, or we are out and no payments, cliff edge looming!

devilish said:
Also Juncker didn't blew anything with Cameron.
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Oh, so why did we have a referendum then?

Juncker will go down in history as the first EU leader to lose a member of the EU on his watch (and a big one, paying in surpluses at that) can't see him surviving after we leave can you, much less getting the top job in the new unified State of Europe?
 
I Believe said:
If transitional deal means we are out, then no payments, we are either 'in' with special compensation on movement and trade and continue to pay our dues, or we are out and no payments, cliff edge looming!



Oh, so why did we have a referendum then?

Juncker will go down in history as the first EU leader to lose a member of the EU on his watch (and a big one, paying in surpluses at that) can't see him surviving after we leave can you, much lass getting the top job in the new unified State of Europe?
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a- No one is forcing the UK to sign anything. The UK is free not to pay their dues as much as the EU is free not to give a transitional deal + a trade deal afterwards.

b- The Tory party wanted to make sure to win the GE without any risk of having a hung government so it decided to cripple Ukip by offering a referendum on Brexit. Since its suicide to leave the EU, Cameron expected the EU to bail him out afterwards but that failed miserably. That ended up well for the Tory party and Cameron didn't it?

c- Every country is free to leave the EU by activating article 50. Its not Juncker's fault that the UK was lead by an incompetent person who overplayed his hand to win the next GE.
 
I Believe said:
If transitional deal means we are out, then no payments, we are either 'in' with special compensation on movement and trade and continue to pay our dues, or we are out and no payments, cliff edge looming!



Oh, so why did we have a referendum then?

Juncker will go down in history as the first EU leader to lose a member of the EU on his watch (and a big one, paying in surpluses at that) can't see him surviving after we leave can you, much less getting the top job in the new unified State of Europe?
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You realize that no one cares about Juncker at the exception of brexiters, who for some reason have a passion for the man. No one excepts Juncker himself, wants him to survive.
 
I Believe said:
Whoa! Stop Press, for goodness sake someone text Theresa, before she says anything she regrets, we ARE HOME FREE! YIPEE!
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I dont think ive said anything that is so outrageous to deserve 3 posts.

I think that both barnier and davies confirmed that most of it is moral obligation. Same thing can be said about the eu offering a transitional period to the uk. The UK is free not to pay most of the it. The EU is also free not to offer a transitional period. Having said that any decision taken by either party will have consequences.
 
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GazTheLegend said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

55% of the French people voted against the ratification of the EU constitution.

They were ignored.

That's the definition of losing your sovereignty and your democracy. Rightly or wrongly, the next French government ratified the EU constitution anyway.

I believe that if you held a "Frexit" you would have a similar vote.

Perhaps that's because the people don't understand the consequences fully. The EU becoming more federalised COULD be a power of good, but it's hard to ignore the erosion of choice - especially with forced migration quotas being placed on Hungary, Poland etc.
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As per @JPRouve - the incorrect wild assumptions continue.
 
devilish said:
I dont think ive said anything that is so outrageous to deserve 3 posts
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Sorry Devilish, my apologies, it was a technical hitch with my laptop, silly me kept pressing re-send, I was so excited about your apparent conversion, but alas not so!
 
I Believe said:
Sorry Devilish, my apologies, it was a technical hitch with my laptop, silly me kept pressing re-send, I was so excited about your apparent conversion, but alas not so!
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No worries mate :)
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Has Theresa's speech started yet - could do with a good chuckle.
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Paul you realise it will be in English, that is still the official business language of the EU... wonder what they will change it to after we've left? It will annoy Junker so much if they have to keep using it..!
Will they have to translate all those OJEC documents into the new business language? Suppose they will try and stick that bill on us as well!
 
I Believe said:
Paul you realise it will be in English, that is still the official business language of the EU... wonder what they will change it to after we've left? It will annoy Junker so much if they have to keep using it..!
Will they have to translate all those OJEC documents into the new business language? Suppose they will try and stick that bill on us as well!
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I have a feeling it won't be in English, French or German - I'll plump for gibberish.

As JPR said, no-one really cares about Juncker apart from the British - he'll be gone soon as will May , which we agree on, not for the same reasons though.
The Uk will pay for their access to the market etc etc so will effectively still be part of the EU after their "departure" in March 2019 - the only difference being is that they won't have any MEP's or say in what happens. Just think no Farage - scratch that, he's never there anyway.
 
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