For what it's worth, if I'm not mistaken the main problem is not regarding degrees but about research and the fact that British Universities will most likely lose a certain amount of researchers. I could be wrong though.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
When i go to the supermarket i dont have to buy every item in the shop just to get the 10 items i may need.
^this
It really is the absolute same thing with our "excellence universities". Heavily marketed in Germany, everyone here thinks it's something special. The second you leave the country nobody gives a shit. Koblenz is a "excellence university". Ever heard of it? I doubt it. Göttingen isn't part of that group. The university of Oppenheimer, Heisenberg, Gauß, of multiple nobel price winners in the last 30 years. Is it less prestigious than Koblenz? Heidelberg is a member. But does it need to be to be prestigious? Nope.
Not a big deal multiplied across a lot of people is a big deal.
20 years ago you couldn't share documents to multiple people without photocopying and posting the lot, now you can share it instantly. It wasn't a big deal but I wouldn't want to go back to that waste of time
It's a bit of a perfect storm of issues of which Brexit is a huge one, but is made worse because of other issues that aren't related.
But the two huge Brexit issues are to do with funding and personnel. EU researchers who can go elsewhere are going elsewhere (and why not when they can have more certainty) and funding that comes from the EU is up in the air.
That's bad news, but might be mitigated relatively easily if the political will was there, but it isn't and, instead, the government are cutting (or trying to cut) other revenue streams for the universities.
What's ironic is that universities like Cambridge, Oxford, St Andrews etc... are incredible examples of soft-power, but in the name of whatever the feck people think they'll achieve with Brexit they're pissing that up the wall.
@I Believe
Unreadable. System can't qoute it.
Also, I won't edit it. Nobody gives a shit about Russells or the concept behind it, I doubt people are even aware it exists outside of GB. [EDIT: Quick google search in French and German confirms it: if you search Russells, even if you search only in those languages, the first page of google results still only displays English results almost entirely] They do care about some of it's individual universities though, like Glasgow, Edinburgh, Oxford or Cambridge. That's all I said and I stand by it. Here, because, yet again, you misqouted and left out essential parts (which is becoming really annoying, to a point where I consider putting you on ignore. And I'm Trump here??):
See the difference? Guess not.
You also still don't understand ERASMUS isn't a student exchange program solely, it's a cooperation of European Universities on numerous fields. Including the highly valuable common standard called ECTS.
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To bring this useless discussion to a conclusion: what I originally took offense for was the fact that you seemed to imply that GB doesn't need those systems because the "Russell Group" as such is prestigious enough to not reap any benefit from it. While that is true for some of them for sure, that's not down to the existence of Russells but their individual reputation. If you think this won't have an impact on Universities like Belfast, Exeter, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle, Cardiff, Bristol etc, I have to question your sanity. Because if I want to go abroad and I can chose between Lisbon, Lyon and Manchester, why would I chose Manchester when I have problems getting my courses and degrees recognized there. On reputation alone, most British Univiersities don't have any advantages over the continent.
Its really not a big deal and i preferred having to 'check in' with the police every so often. It gave a feeling of legality.
You obviously do, otherwise you wouldn't go to all this trouble to condemn it!
So for all your bluster and raging about being misunderstood, misquoted and making arguments which only you seem to think worth making,
you still haven't explained how its going to be harder for British students to study in the EU, post Brexit, that's always assuming they want to!
I've already acknowledge the Erasmus project was worthwhile, but unfortunately for whatever reason, few British students used it whilst we were in the EU, so why in heavens name would they suddenly want to make use of it when we are out?
You brought it up. And since you seem to insist it's something special, I just explained to you why it isn't....
And I have explained it. Twice. If UK insists on getting out of FOM; they will have to leave ERASMUS as well, thus meaning they lose ECTS as well, thus meaning they lose the automatic recognition of degrees and courses. Basically, so far, if you made your Bachelor in the UK so far, you were automatically eligible for every master program in the EU in your field of expertise, give or take. Same the other way round. Even if you switched mid-term and wanted to finish your bachelor/master elsewhere, you would get your prior archievements recognized with ease.
And that's not even accounting for the most important part: if you leave the FOM agreement (and I have explained this before as well) you won't fall under EU regulations any more, meaning you will have to enter the EU's universities on the same qoutas as every other non EU citizens. So far no EU country could neglect a UK citizens right to study abroad as nationalities don't matter there under EU law, now they can.
It's funny I have to explain/defend that towards you, as I don't especially like that system as German education suffered quite a bit as we had to lower a lot of standards.
First of all thank you for a more considered approach to answering my question, less of the bluster and accusations.
If I have understood this correctly what you seem to be saying is that if Britain leaves the EU any first degree gained in Britain, as you state a Bachelor, will not be recognised in any EU country as the basis for attempting a second degree at Masters level in any EU University?
Secondly, British students seeking a degree place in any EU University, i.e. at first, second or PhD level will have to 'stand in line' with other non-EU applicants, regardless of what University has accredited their first or second level degree. This will have nothing to do with the qualifications being held or sought but primarily because their nationality would be a classed as non-EU. In other words the passport held by the student would be seen as the determining factor, even if the academic credentials were fulfilled?
Is that correct?
If so, would you expect that Britain will introduce a reciprocal system applied to EU students?
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Your European citizenship makes you legal in 28 countries without the need to check in. Progress
Pretty much exactly that. And that (introducing something similar in the UK) would only be natural. The problem here for a country like GB (as for any highly developed country, like Germany as well) is the folllowing: from a strictly selfish point of view, you want foreign people to study in your country. Because basically, you gain talent with a certain level of education that might decide to stay in your country. Those people are easily integrated, have an easy time finding a job and are, predominantly, young. You want those people, you need those people. UK maybe less than Germany, but still. Losing an advantage here is bad.
I'm pretty sure academic institutions in the EU recognise Chinese degrees usa degrees etc and that they will be happy to take post grads based on talent from the UK as well...
And equally I don't see our universities not recognising degrees from the EU...
It is of course quite probable there could be visa requirements for students but that would be a government decision
I wasn't even made aware of ERASMUS when I finished my A Levels 14 years or so ago - no wonder the take up was so poor in the UK if it wasn't offered.
Given the choice I would have definitely studied in Europe.
Given the choice I would have definitely studied in Europe.
I don't know much about other Universities but if I'm not mistaken mine doesn't recognise other degrees(out of ECTS), everything is done on a case by case basis. IIRC they are also out of Erasmus but have partnerships with some foreign Universities.
Thank you.
As you have pointed out previously I am getting on in years and so it could be said I have no interest in the future. That's not true I have two fantastic grandchildren one who will not be going to University, at least not right away, he has other things to do, but his sister will definitely be going (based on her academic record so far). So I consider I have a vested interest in the future.
As far as I can remember throughout my life time, those who were capable, who had the right spirit of adventure and someone to 'foot the bill', travelled and studied all around Europe and further afield, academic achievement where ever it was gained being recognised, specifically where the nature and the level of a degree were, well almost considered universal; eventually acceptance of vocational as well as other more academic degrees was not any longer an issue, as far as I was aware. Its true that projects like Erasmus and the link to things like ETCS have increased or widened the boundaries in terms of elements of degrees and access (via equivalency) and contributors such as Britain only had themselves to blame if not enough British students took advantage of such projects, when they could!
The irony may well turn out to be that Britain, on its own outside the EU, will need its brightest and best to travel and study abroad, but then return and now more than ever that should concentrate the minds of future British Governments in the policies and strategies they adopt. I believe (no pun intended) that once the money has been sorted out and the 'ruffled feathers' smoothed Britain will continue to work in harmony with its European neighbours, but under its own steam and with both Britain and the EU following their chosen paths. I would expect education both inside the EU and in Britain will begin to flourish, because Brexit will have forced a new reality, on both sides.
You people scare me.
Theresa May under pressure over ‘secret advice’ on halting Brexit
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/07/theresa-may-secret-advice-brexit-eu
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/07/theresa-may-secret-advice-brexit-eu
Frighten easily do you?
There is a comma missing it should have read "and 'ruffled feathers' smoothed, Britain will continue to work... etc.
Both sides have had their feathers ruffled, the dialogue Barnier and Davis use, in public at least, indicates that, but each side know its in both their interests to make things work.
Why, unless you are of a particular nervous disposition, should that be scary?
Oh, I am not nervous, I do not leave in Britain.
Anyway...your problem. Or your final solution for some (not saying you)
Then you have nothing to worry or be scared about, do you?
So, it's been a pointless exchange of posts really!
So how long till the EU decide sufficient progress has not been made and they wont discuss trade talks - is that at the end of this month?
Probably accompanied by a 5%-10% fall in the pound - all the remainers (remoners) saying i told you so (we are not going to get a good deal) - and all the brexiters (racists) saying I told you so (the EU is trying to punish us)
I guess the only real questions is how long after May has to resign - days or can she cling on for a couple of weeks
Probably accompanied by a 5%-10% fall in the pound - all the remainers (remoners) saying i told you so (we are not going to get a good deal) - and all the brexiters (racists) saying I told you so (the EU is trying to punish us)
I guess the only real questions is how long after May has to resign - days or can she cling on for a couple of weeks
The main thing she has going for her is that no one else seems to want the job yet. Looks like the successors have decided it's best to wait until after Brexit has been an obvious failure, then pouncing.
Will be days, even she knows shes been a disaster. Whoever replaces her could end up deciding the future of the country.
Past ten years. "We should leave because we would get a sweet bespoke deal".
Now: "We should leave because the EU are tyrants and they're trying to punish us".
Now: "We should leave because the EU are tyrants and they're trying to punish us".
I think Farage said leave and watch all the German business leaders stampede to Merkel and co to give Britain a good deal, to avoid tariffs.
I believe the delay is down to the City interest and trying to give them a soft landing. The same interest via the Banking crisis that massively pushed up our national debt.
I believe the delay is down to the City interest and trying to give them a soft landing. The same interest via the Banking crisis that massively pushed up our national debt.
I think you are right, the 'moneymen' are in control now, it will all boil down to money, the amounts and who runs the show?
May and even Boris will go where they are pushed, the EU has to get its act together and present a defined bill, unfortunately it has no idea what they think we owe them, so they have been picking figures out of the air, £60B, £90B. £100B+, which Davis keeps swatting back with a 'show me how you get to that figure' and of course they can't... I think it will go to penalties, after extra time (transition period), by then the soft landing will have been negotiated under the counter, so to speak.
Over the next ten years: "Which idiot thought leaving the EU was a good idea?"
Not you Paul, you are in the clear mate, relax and have some cognac!
Any deal, 'sweet' or otherwise, will have nothing to do with you, like Pilot you have washed hands of it all, in public, no one will be able to blame you, not even after two thousand years, you will be still able to claim you were in 'Bexit denial'.
I'm perfectly relaxed, see Davis didn't bother going to Brussels today. Waiting for the next episode of the farce
We wait and we wait, what brilliant idea is he going to come up with next. Surely a Brexiteer must have a solution to the Irish border problem, seemingly not , didn't think about that, did they? No the EU have to be creative and imaginative because the Uk have not got a clue what to do.
The Uk leaves the EU in name only in 2019 - in an earlier thread I suggested 2025 when they actually leave, I think that may now be too optimistic.
Im not convinced a "transition deal" will be in place by 2019 so perhaps we will actually leave then...
probably followed a few months after with a hasty (and badly drawn up) transition deal that we will probably never leave as it eventually becomes morphs into whatever new relationship we have - 2025 actually sounds sounds too optimistic to me as well
I don't see how a transitional deal can be done by then either, remembering also that the EU wants 6 months from the end of negotiations to put it to the 27 other members which means by this time next year - so far 16 months after the referendum and not counting the time before the referendum to come up with a plan, the best the Uk government has come up with is, "Cake and Eat It" or "We don't know, the EU have to be creative and imaginative"
2019....2025....2035....2050....??
The UK will leave in 2019. That is certain.
How long before the UK finally disentangles itself from the EU depends entirely on the EU - so maybe 2019 if they feel they don't need the UK any more, or maybe 2050 if they find out they need the UK's market and consumers to avoid their own repercussions of ' NO deal is better than a bad deal '
As for the Irish border problem - why not leave it to the two Irelands to sort it out between themselves, or is that too obvious ?
I'm looking for work just now and a lot of investment banks are looking for process re-engineering as though they are going to split processes and move parts to Europe. Perhaps after the industry bigwigs say sorted, we will come out as I just can't see 27 countries most of which want money are never all going to agree with what we want!
indeed - I also suspect that at the end of the month they will say we have not made sufficient progress on key issues (Irish border for example) to start trade talks - so again that will compress the time to put a trade deal in place even further (and its already very compressed)... perhaps the only "transition deal" possible would be to go to EEA terms as they are already existing?