Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[devilish]

I Completely understand your point...for a corporativism point of view. Just make a small point that the word Purge is quite disgusting when you are speaking of the lives of millions.

Said that and saying that I sort of understand your point of view, that is why I don't like EU more than for what it is a cold-hearted economic association

The hypocrisy of european values, and all united dancing in circles is BS, and that is why I would not like to be in this association. Is nice when everything goes alright and we are all european, Oh look the southern states, they are our friends now that we can sell them our most advance stuff and we can use their cheap labour and decent qualified (education paid with southern states taxes). We can go to their countries, buy a second residence for peanuts for our standards and raise the fecking housing market, party and puke everywhere and why not, retire there and drain the health care system (there are more British in Spain than the other way around). All happy happy

But when things goes south (pun intended), Oh but your are Greek, o but you are from the PIGS, etc... We don't want your cheap labour anymore now, your health care system is fecked up because you have 1 million pensioners from our countries? your problem, we were part of the problem that cause the price increase in your housing market making a bubble and it bursted and that shakened your economic system? your problem. And you know what? lets make a purge, we don't need you anymore. Oh, but european values all the way.

I am the most southern European that can come. Greece, Italy and co are all North from my country's perspective

Also i apologise for my choice of words. English is not my first language. All i am saying is that the EU grew too big and too soon. It lacks the infrastructure (and teeth) to cater for such diverse economies and needs radical reform

A leaner EU will allow the group to reform and regroup. It will also allow countries such Greece to do the necessary changes to their economy outside the eurozone and the EU rules. In time the EU might allow others to join but only those whose economy allows them to be an equal partner rather then a burden. The alternative to that would be more integration. Im not sure these countries are ready for that

I also think that its unfair to pin the incompetence of some of the Southern European nations on the EU.

 

[Sultan]

When you should be building bridges. This is all pointing to a hard Brexit.

 

[Kentonio]

I am the most southern European that can come. Greece, Italy and co are all North from my country's perspective

Also i apologise for my choice of words. English is not my first language. All i am saying is that the EU grew too big and too soon. It lacks the infrastructure (and teeth) to cater for such diverse economies and needs radical reform

A leaner EU will allow the group to reform and regroup. It will also allow countries such Greece to do the necessary changes to their economy outside the eurozone and the EU rules. In time the EU might allow others to join but only those whose economy allows them to be an equal partner rather then a burden. The alternative to that would be more integration. Im not sure these countries are ready for that

I also think that its unfair to pin the incompetence of some of the Southern European nations on the EU.

It will even out over time anyway, thats the whole point of the EU project. All that investment and free movement with eastern and southern Europe will inevitably lead to a much more level playing field, we just need the patience and courage to see out the process.

 

[fcbforever]

Jacob Rees-Mogg

Worst of the lot really.

 

[C3Pique]

Worst of the lot really.

The poster boy of the generation that culture left behind.

 

[4bars]

I am the most southern European that can come. Greece, Italy and co are all North from my country's perspective

Also i apologise for my choice of words. English is not my first language. All i am saying is that the EU grew too big and too soon. It lacks the infrastructure (and teeth) to cater for such diverse economies and needs radical reform

A leaner EU will allow the group to reform and regroup. It will also allow countries such Greece to do the necessary changes to their economy outside the eurozone and the EU rules. In time the EU might allow others to join but only those whose economy allows them to be an equal partner rather then a burden. The alternative to that would be more integration. Im not sure these countries are ready for that

I also think that its unfair to pin the incompetence of some of the Southern European nations on the EU.

Southern states is just an example, you had Ireland at the time or eastern europeans. Anyaway

More than incompetence is corruption of the government, Do not forget that we are talking about people that are paying for corruption (as Italy and Spain), they are responsible? yes, till a certain point, but at the moment of the truth, the estates and europe ran to bail out the companies and banks but feck the people. Most of the Greek debt is was from Germany that the knew what they were doing, and they forced them to austerity, and a 1rst Rescue that crippled more the economy and humiliate them, a 2nd rescue deepened the problem and the third they even trampled a referendum voted of +60%. That is what europe is. Lets save our friends and feck the people. Iceland let the banks fall, pursue bankers and PM and they recovered quicker than any other else. Yes, I know economies are not comparable, but in terms of morality is appalling what they did to the greeks (not Greek government). But hey, before the crisis, lets all enjoy Mikonos, cheap labour and they can eat immigration coming from Turkey and middle east.

We soon forget that we are talking about people with the good things and bad things. And don't get me wrong, we do the same with the rest of the world when we buy cheap clothing manufacturing, or Iphones etc... But if you associate with one country, when things goes wrong, man up and do your share, but is easy to see only macroeconomic indicators, but not that easy to count all the effects of mass tourism that brings income to the country, but it wrecks the ecosystems, put in stress the services of the country and kicks out local people of the centers of the city towns destroying the proper life tissue of the cities, making the life cost way higher than the wages and making families not capable to consum and develope the capitalist local commerces and industry.

The thing is that northern europe had been using cheap labour, from the south, increased the cost of living and stressed the public services in the main cities and used them as their playground. But now that it does not go well, chuck them away. Very nice

Not speaking the shameful dealing of the refugee crisis.

 

[Stanley Road]

It will even out over time anyway, thats the whole point of the EU project. All that investment and free movement with eastern and southern Europe will inevitably lead to a much more level playing field, we just need the patience and courage to see out the process.

When all the skilled and multilingual people have left the south to live in the richer north and west, there will be nothing left down south but the dregs if society, that fom for you.

 

[devilish]

Southern states is just an example, you had Ireland at the time or eastern europeans. Anyaway

More than incompetence is corruption of the government, Do not forget that we are talking about people that are paying for corruption (as Italy and Spain), they are responsible? yes, till a certain point, but at the moment of the truth, the estates and europe ran to bail out the companies and banks but feck the people. Most of the Greek debt is was from Germany that the knew what they were doing, and they forced them to austerity, and a 1rst Rescue that crippled more the economy and humiliate them, a 2nd rescue deepened the problem and the third they even trampled a referendum voted of +60%. That is what europe is. Lets save our friends and feck the people. Iceland let the banks fall, pursue bankers and PM and they recovered quicker than any other else. Yes, I know economies are not comparable, but in terms of morality is appalling what they did to the greeks (not Greek government). But hey, before the crisis, lets all enjoy Mikonos, cheap labour and they can eat immigration coming from Turkey and middle east.

We soon forget that we are talking about people with the good things and bad things. And don't get me wrong, we do the same with the rest of the world when we buy cheap clothing manufacturing, or Iphones etc... But if you associate with one country, when things goes wrong, man up and do your share, but is easy to see only macroeconomic indicators, but not that easy to count all the effects of mass tourism that brings income to the country, but it wrecks the ecosystems, put in stress the services of the country and kicks out local people of the centers of the city towns destroying the proper life tissue of the cities, making the life cost way higher than the wages and making families not capable to consum and develope the capitalist local commerces and industry.

The thing is that northern europe had been using cheap labour, from the south, increased the cost of living and stressed the public services in the main cities and used them as their playground. But now that it does not go well, chuck them away. Very nice

Not speaking the shameful dealing of the refugee crisis.

In my opinion this victim's attitude is why Southern Europe is in shambles.

A- This 'hatred' against the wealthier part of Europe doesn't even make sense. Their taxpayer's money is what transformed Eastern Europe's economy. FOM is allowing thousands of Italian young people with a job and is exactly what is keeping Greece afloat. Sure, things could have been done better. There again, Greece should have lived within its means which would have meant that it wouldn't need bailouts, Italy should have appointed decent politicians and finally killed off decades (if not centuries old) problems such as the mafia, the rampant racism between North-South etc and most of these countries should have stirred away from poisonous ideologies like fascism.

B- While solidarity is important within a union, the wealthier part of Europe doesn't owe these countries a living. Its up to them to sort their shit up. I don't know what's going on in Greece but I am perfectly aware what is going on in Italy, a country were corruption and organised crime is not only widespread but its fully embraced, not just by the politicians but also by the general public.

I agree that alot more could be done regarding immigration. Both Italy and Malta suffer from that same problem so we can understand the situation perfectly. However let me remind you that when mandatory burden sharing was introduced it was not Northern Europe who complained about it but the East. That stinks of hypocrisy considering that these same countries do not mind taking millions of euros in aid from the Western Europe's taxpayer and do not mind sending thousands of their own people to work there. There's over 2m Polish citizen in Germany alone and yet, their government still bitch about taking a measly few thousand desperate people from either Greece or Italy.

I think Southern Europe should stop blaming others for being in shambles and start working their way out of the big hole they dig themselves into. Ironically that can only occur once they cut their umbilical cord from those financing them and learn how to live within their means. That might sound harsh but it isn't. Independence had worked great in my own country as locals realised that they there's no choice but to live within their means. In fact Malta was prosperous long before it became an EU member. I've been to Sicily in numerous occasions and if I got a penny every time I heard that they dont mind doing this or that bad thing simply because Rome or Brussels is paying, Id be a millionaire by now.

 

[4bars]

In my opinion this victim's attitude is why Southern Europe is in shambles.

A- This 'hatred' against the wealthier part of Europe doesn't even make sense. Their taxpayer's money is what transformed Eastern Europe's economy. FOM is allowing thousands of Italian young people with a job and is exactly what is keeping Greece afloat. Sure, things could have been done better. There again, Greece should have lived within its means which would have meant that it wouldn't need bailouts, Italy should have appointed decent politicians and finally killed off decades (if not centuries old) problems such as the mafia, the rampant racism between North-South etc and most of these countries should have stirred away from poisonous ideologies like fascism.

B- While solidarity is important within a union, the wealthier part of Europe doesn't owe these countries a living. Its up to them to sort their shit up. I don't know what's going on in Greece but I am perfectly aware what is going on in Italy, a country were corruption and organised crime is not only widespread but its fully embraced, not just by the politicians but also by the general public.

I agree that alot more could be done regarding immigration. Both Italy and Malta suffer from that same problem so we can understand the situation perfectly. However let me remind you that when mandatory burden sharing was introduced it was not Northern Europe who complained about it but the East. That stinks of hypocrisy considering that these same countries do not mind taking millions of euros in aid from the Western Europe's taxpayer and do not mind sending thousands of their own people to work there. There's over 2m Polish citizen in Germany alone and yet, their government still bitch about taking a measly few thousand desperate people from either Greece or Italy.

I think Southern Europe should stop blaming others for being in shambles and start working their way out of the big hole they dig themselves into. Ironically that can only occur once they cut their umbilical cord from those financing them and learn how to live within their means. That might sound harsh but it isn't. Independence had worked great in my own country as locals realised that they there's no choice but to live within their means. In fact Malta was prosperous long before it became an EU member. I've been to Sicily in numerous occasions and if I got a penny every time I heard that they dont mind doing this or that bad thing simply because Rome or Brussels is paying, Id be a millionaire by now.

Is not hatred, believe me, is accountability. 50% of our salaries goes just with rent, and I mean families. Here in Canada, me alone and having a medium lower income it would be 1/3 (or even 1/4 when I fancy do a extra part time), I could buy a car and have my leissure. What is not normal is that in Barcelona, we pay the same rate than a top city in europe (and more than Berlin) and the minimum salary is half than France. Wealthy people (and I consider myself a priviledge ) tend to forget that they are not making a favour contracting foreign people, this people costed hundreds of thousands (individually) to educate and they are paying taxes since the very first.

When I see people coming to a less better off country (and I repeat, I feel priviledged because even if middle class, I had all the opportunities that I wanted) like they are making them a favour I feel like that they are like that dumb guy that throw garbage on the street and says "oh I am creating jobs for garbagemen". No, is not victimism is accountability. Pay for something it does not allow you to think that there are no consequences.

Ironically I am coming from a wealthy region from Spain, we are above average in several economical aspects like GDP per capita, where we bailed up Spain for years, and I have that opinion. And I never claimed that we southern countries don't have to sort their shit out, they definitely do, but the northern/western countries have to accept their part of responsibility that is not small. You can't say "Oh, what an example Germany or France or whoever is when things go wrong, but oh how shit are the PIGS when things go wrong.

And the main points that I am trying to make, maybe because I did not explain myself clear:

- Southern countries have to sort their shit out: YES
- Northern countries have to be accountable of their actions towards south: YES

MAIN POINT: All together when things goes great but kick some of them when the things go wrong is disgusting. And if you want to do that, just don't be an hypocrite, and say that business is business and we don't care about the people and stop boasting about EU morals.

 

[devilish]

People keep returning to Spain, the standard of living (not economically speaking) is far superior there if you have a job. So no, we value family, good weather, and good food


Is not hatred, believe me, is accountability. 50% of our salaries goes just with rent, and I mean families. Here in Canada, me alone and having a medium lower income it would be 1/3 (or even 1/4 when I fancy do a extra part time), I could buy a car and have my leissure. What is not normal is that in Barcelona, we pay the same rate than a top city in europe (and more than Berlin) and the minimum salary is half than France. Wealthy people (and I consider myself a priviledge ) tend to forget that they are not making a favour contracting foreign people, this people costed hundreds of thousands (individually) to educate and they are paying taxes since the very first.

When I see people coming to a less better off country (and I repeat, I feel priviledged because even if middle class, I had all the opportunities that I wanted) like they are making them a favour I feel like that they are like that dumb guy that throw garbage on the street and says "oh I am creating jobs for garbagemen". No, is not victimism is accountability. Pay for something it does not allow you to think that there are no consequences.

Ironically I am coming from a wealthy region from Spain, we are above average in several economical aspects like GDP per capita, where we bailed up Spain for years, and I have that opinion. And I never claimed that we southern countries don't have to sort their shit out, they definitely do, but the northern/western countries have to accept their part of responsibility that is not small. You can't say "Oh, what an example Germany or France or whoever is when things go wrong, but oh how shit are the PIGS when things go wrong.

And the main points that I am trying to make, maybe because I did not explain myself clear:

- Southern countries have to sort their shit out: YES
- Northern countries have to be accountable of their actions towards south: YES

MAIN POINT: All together when things goes great but kick some of them when the things go wrong is disgusting. And if you want to do that, just don't be an hypocrite, and say that business is business and we don't care about the people and stop boasting about EU morals.

Rent is high everywhere. I know, I live in London and we pretty have the same ratio in terms of rent. I agree that things within the EU could have been done better. But be honest on this. Don't you think that most Southern European countries would still be in this sort of shit irrespective on whether the EU exist or not? I am 100% sure that Italy (especially the South) would be. I dare to say it would be far worse then they are now.

 

[4bars]

Rent is high everywhere. I know, I live in the UK and we pretty have the same ratio in terms of rent. I agree that things within the EU could have been done better. But be honest on this. Don't you think that most Southern European countries would still be in this sort of shit irrespective on whether the EU exist or not? I am 100% sure that Italy (especially the South) would be. I dare to say it would be far worse then it is now.

Depends on which economic deals they would be able to struck. I repeat for...I do not know how many times? I do not discuss the EU as economic entity. Maybe because I lean to socialism, but I believe that is not all capitalism. Is not all about cost/benefit. And if I want a European project, it has to be according to my believes. So then, I repeat once more: When the things goes alright is easy to stick together. Kick them out when things are not ok, It goes against the standards of what I expect from Europe (And the standards that they want to sell)

 

[devilish]

Depends on which economic deals they would be able to struck. I repeat for...I do not know how many times? I do not discuss the EU as economic entity. Maybe because I lean to socialism, but I believe that is not all capitalism. Is not all about cost/benefit. And if I want a European project, it has to be according to my believes. So then, I repeat once more: When the things goes alright is easy to stick together. Kick them out when things are not ok, It goes against the standards of what I expect from Europe (And the standards that they want to sell)

But that's the thing. What happens if there are countries in the EU who only care about their own welfare and can't care less about showing solidarity to others (like for example Poland or Hungary do in terms of immigration)? What happens if some regions (as Sicily) has a big chip on its shoulder and therefore see any form of central government as a way of getting as many cash as possible without any care of reforming oneself? We're talking here about ancient problems some of which predates the very idea of having some form of unified Europe. Sicily has been hostile to any form of central government ever since it was duped into joining a unified Italy. Do you know what they call organized crime there? Cosa Nostra ie our thing. Do you know why? Because its a government within a government ie their own government. Good luck convincing them to change their ways.

The EU as it is won't survive for long under such state. Unless reformed the wealthy countries will get tired of throwing money in endless wells and those whose morals aren't in line with those of mainstream Europe will leave once they can afford it. So we've got 3 choices

a- we dismantle this whole project up
b- we go for further integration which will strengthen the EU structure, making it fairer and more efficient but will piss off those who are against such move
c- we embrace that the one fits all system doesn't really work and we start considering alternatives to EU membership. Under such scenario Greece can default, Poland can refuse immigrants etc. There again, different packages also come with different rights and responsibilities. For example should countries who refuse immigrants simply because they are Muslims still enjoy the many benefits unrestricted FOM bring? Should countries who can't manage their own money be allowed to tap in EU funds? etc

 

[4bars]

But that's the thing. What happens if there are countries in the EU who only care about their own welfare and can't care less about showing solidarity to others (like for example Poland or Hungary do in terms of immigration)? What happens if some regions (as Sicily) has a big chip on its shoulder and therefore see any form of central government as a way of getting as many cash as possible without any care of reforming oneself? We're talking here about ancient problems some of which predates the very idea of having some form of unified Europe. Sicily has been hostile to any form of central government ever since it was duped into joining a unified Italy. Do you know what they call organized crime there? Cosa Nostra ie our thing. Do you know why? Because its a government within a government ie their own government. Good luck convincing them to change their ways.

The EU as it is won't survive for long under such state. Sooner or later those who are paying will get tired paying for others and those whose morals aren't in line with those of mainstream Europe will leave once they can afford it. So we've got 3 choices

a- we dismantle this whole project up
b- we go for further integration which will strengthen the EU structure, making it fairer and more efficient but will piss off those who are against such move
c- we embrace that the one fits all system doesn't really work and we start giving up different packages with different duties and responsibilities. In that case Greece would be able to default, Poland can refuse immigrants etc. Of course it will also come with a reduction of rights too. For example is it fair to allow countries who refuse to show solidarity towards immigrants unrestricted FOM to their own people? Should countries like Greece ever be trusted with EU taxpayer's money unless of course they seriously change their ways?

In my opinion, if we reached the crisis is not because people missbehaved (they did, but not the main cause) but because governments allowed private companies to take advantage of the system. In Spain, we rescued the banks for 50 billion. Saying that they will recover till the last penny. Last month, they said that they will not recover more than 40 billion...And all this time the banks had revenue!! they sunk the economy because they were not investing the money that the Central Bank lend them, using it to protect themselves. And meanwhile people could be kicked out of their homes for the same banks So we converted private debt in public debt. And not only the banks

If you go against the private companies, they will flee your country, I agree. But if it is the WHOLE Europe, where they will go? In the whole crisis, the richer got richer, the big companies didn't stop having revenue and the middle class destroyed and it had been more and more diusparity. How is possible that in a crisis, the superrich and rich increased faster than anytime? why they are allowed this to happen?

If Europe want to be a solid project according their boasted values, it does not matter on further integration or decentralization. Both models works, you can see it in France and Germany (Though I am a big fan of decentralization). What it needs to be is unify criteria to avoid transfers of companies (fiscal unity for example) and transparency and accountability. But this will never happen because governments eat at the same table than them. It was not a problem of Countries, it was a problem of governments and private sectors. And this private sectors were not greek or spanish, etc...were european, backed up by european governments. As I said, Germany was harsh with Greece,m because lot of its debt came from Germany banks. And guess what? they protected german companies over Greek people, and if you pretend to be european, we all are.

And I finish with. Of course countries should not do whatever they want, that is why there are rules to follow with a certain flexibility, if a country blatantly refuse to follow them because they don't want (not because they can't), it should be considered to kick them out, specially related with human rights. And one example is about Poland and Hungary as you said, but again will continue with the hypocrisy of the EU, allegedly funding mercenaries in Lybia to patrol the coast sinking refugees boats or forcing them to go back and closing them in private 3rd world prisons mixt gender where women are raped daily like animals. And yes, I repeat, funded by the EU. Like EU funding Trukey for Syrian refugees.


I want a EU of values and integrity towards that, not only the economic sense, only with that we would survive, if not we would become just an Elite of countries leaving people (not countries) behind

 

[4bars]

Well, I think we went to much of topic. sorry about that. I will not discuss that anymore

 

[devilish]

Well, I think we went to much of topic. sorry about that. I will not discuss that anymore

agreed.

 

[I Believe]

Wilson stepped down several years after the Vietnam war had ended (in 1976).

Yes I was referring to how it was an 'out of the blue' resignation, no one saw it coming!

There were lots of conspiracy theories going at the time, including revenge by the CIA, that Wilson was having a secret affair with a female colleague, that he had secretly been working for the Russians (where have we heard that recently?) and also that the South African (the Apartheid lot, pre Mandela) and/or Ian Smith (Rhodesia etc.) were after him as well.. mmmn! pays your money you takes your choice... or maybe he just had enough!

 

[I Believe]

I know brexiters are stupid but please don't try to think that the rest of us are too.

Oh dear Paul and here's me thinking you had intellect and intelligence; you, claim to 'know' something you cannot possibly know, and 'to think' what other people are thinking... mind reading perhaps?

I would suggest that if ever your career in trading falters, you might consider a career on the stage, absolutely laughable!

 

[Kentonio]

When all the skilled and multilingual people have left the south to live in the richer north and west, there will be nothing left down south but the dregs if society, that fom for you.

You're not thinking it through to its obvious conclusion. Initially you'll definitely see (and we already have) lots of people moving from poor areas to richer ones. As that process continues though, you also see business and investment starting to build in the poorer countries as people take advantage of lower costs and prices. Initially that may seem like a negative, but over time as wealth in those countries increases and as ex-pats return to their countries of origin with the money they made abroad, the playing field starts to level out.

It's a very long process of course and there's pain along the way, but the final destination is a much more equal and balanced Europe.

 

[Stanley Road]

You're not thinking it through to its obvious conclusion. Initially you'll definitely see (and we already have) lots of people moving from poor areas to richer ones. As that process continues though, you also see business and investment starting to build in the poorer countries as people take advantage of lower costs and prices. Initially that may seem like a negative, but over time as wealth in those countries increases and as ex-pats return to their countries of origin with the money they made abroad, the playing field starts to level out.

It's a very long process of course and there's pain along the way, but the final destination is a much more equal and balanced Europe.

You described race to the bottom very well in the middle of that. If / when expats return home and business is investing in cheap markets, wages will be driven up and poorer markets sought by said firms. When recession hits we will face austerity and people will move again. Rinse repeat, forever.

 

[JPRouve]

You described race to the bottom very well in the middle of that. If / when expats return home and business is investing in cheap markets, wages will be driven up and poorer markets sought by said firms. When recession hits we will face austerity and people will move again. Rinse repeat, forever.

AKA Economic cycle, it doesn't matter where you are or what you do, the rinse and repeat will occur.

 

[Stanley Road]

AKA Economic cycle, it doesn't matter where you are or what you do, the rinse and repeat will occur.

Only i font believe those skilled people would return. Why would they once they've experienced better lives in better countries?

 

[JPRouve]

Only i font believe those skilled people would return. Why would they once they've experienced better lives in better countries?

Because the same thing happens in the "better" countries, the cycle that you described is true for everyone North and South, foreigners come when there are jobs and leave when there aren't jobs(Obviously a non negligible part stays no matter what because they built a family) . Also the migration between countries isn't that big in Europe, so your premise that all skilled people would leave the south is completely fallacious, the actual mobility of workers in Europe is relatively poor, we are not the US where someone from New York is easily willing to move to Houston for a job.

 

[Kentonio]

You described race to the bottom very well in the middle of that. If / when expats return home and business is investing in cheap markets, wages will be driven up and poorer markets sought by said firms. When recession hits we will face austerity and people will move again. Rinse repeat, forever.

The EU is a closed system, there comes a point where there is no cheaper place to move to. That's the whole point. As for why people would move back there, there are a whole host of reasons. People often want to return to the country of their birth later in life, especially if they can have a higher standard of living there after making money abroad. You can already see large numbers of well educated and qualified Polish people returning to Poland after spending some years making money in the U.K. and elsewhere. They often use that money to establish their own businesses and make investments back in Poland.

 

[Stanley Road]

so your premise that all skilled people would leave the south is completely fallacious, the actual mobility of workers in Europe is relatively poor, we are not the US where someone from New York is easily willing to move to Houston for a job.

Sorry my mistake, I am just basing my opinion on factual experience. I work with loads of foreigners and trust me they are not hoping their place of birth really succeeds so they can go back.

 

[Stanley Road]

You can already see large numbers of well educated and qualified Polish people returning to Poland after spending some years making money in the U.K. and elsewhere. They often use that money to establish their own businesses and make investments back in Poland.

I'm seeing more polish people arriving in Holland than ever before. A colleague of mine was told "Name your price" to go and work in Poland, he turned it down. These countries may improve their standards of life over time but they will never catch up with the north and west of Europe, never.

 

[Kentonio]

I'm seeing more polish people arriving in Holland than ever before. A colleague of mine was told "Name your price" to go and work in Poland, he turned it down. These countries may improve their standards of life over time but they will never catch up with the north and west of Europe, never.

Never say never. Things change over time, but we're talking decades not years. It's about reshaping an entire continent, this isn't overnight stuff.

 

[Stanley Road]

Never say never. Things change over time, but we're talking decades not years. It's about reshaping an entire continent, this isn't overnight stuff.

I'll be retired by then, maybe I will start posting as Stan De Wolf when I retire.

 

[Kentonio]

I'll be retired by then, maybe I will start posting as Stan De Wolf when I retire.

You'll probably be dead by then, and the rest of us too.

 

[JPRouve]

Sorry my mistake, I am just basing my opinion on factual experience. I work with loads of foreigners and trust me they are not hoping their place of birth really succeeds so they can go back.

That's not what I'm telling you and that's not what you assumed either. You made the point that all skilled people would leave southern countries and that they wouldn't go back, that's wrong. First because a minority of skilled people actually move(not all) and because like the crisis of 2007-2008 showed foreigners go back to their countries when the job market isn't good.

I'll be retired by then, maybe I will start posting as Stan De Wolf when I retire.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Oh dear Paul and here's me thinking you had intellect and intelligence; you, claim to 'know' something you cannot possibly know, and 'to think' what other people are thinking... mind reading perhaps?

I would suggest that if ever your career in trading falters, you might consider a career on the stage, absolutely laughable!

You can keep making cheap snide remarks if that keeps you happy - if you had kept up with the thread you would know I retired last year.

What do you think has been happening on here. Every single claim by Brexiters has been debunked, there is no rational argument.
It is clear that they don't understand how trade works, they don't understand how the immigration laws work, they don't understand how parliament works and certainly not the EU system.

Then we come to dear Mr Farage - as all he offers the world is bile against foreigners and he is your hero, what logical conclusion would you come to - he is your hero because he is what....a moronic waste of space who is a racist and xenophobic. It is not Poles, Muslims or Asians or whatever offends him which is a threat to the UK, it is disgusting pathetic shit-stirrers like him who revel in promoting hatred.

 

[I Believe]

if you had kept up with the thread you would know I retired last year.

Good for you, join the club!

What do you think has been happening on here

On this thread I assume you mean?

Well what I think is that the majority posting are remainers, interspaced by some remoaners, most of who seemed to have left Britain anyway. Like a lot, but not all of their ilk (notice I'm not trying to 'tar everyone with the same brush' as you appear to want to do) who can't accept they lost the referendum and that they lost precisely because they tend to think they know better than anyone else, always a dangerous position to adopt, they have fired off a salvo of opinions, some no doubt honestly held, about what they think will happen after Brexit!

The problem seems to be that for most remainers/remoaners they are looking at things entirely through self absorbing/reflecting lenses, in other words 'seeing what they want to see, believing what they want to believe' precisely (almost) what they are accusing 'Leavers' of doing.

Farage stepped into the chasm left by our so called liberal politicians, between what they wanted to do and what the majority of Britain's living in Britain, didn't want to do and he applied political pressure until the pips squeaked. I don't agree with everything Nigel says, not by a long way, but he almost single-handedly and suffering much personal abuse in the process, forced a question to be put, the answer to which has brought forth an idea whose time has come... and there is little that is more powerful than that.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Good for you, join the club!



On this thread I assume you mean?

Well what I think is that the majority posting are remainers, interspaced by some remoaners, most of who seemed to have left Britain anyway. Like a lot, but not all of their ilk (notice I'm not trying to 'tar everyone with the same brush' as you appear to want to do) who can't accept they lost the referendum and that they lost precisely because they tend to think they know better than anyone else, always a dangerous position to adopt, they have fired off a salvo of opinions, some no doubt honestly held, about what they think will happen after Brexit!

The problem seems to be that for most remainers/remoaners they are looking at things entirely through self absorbing/reflecting lenses, in other words 'seeing what they want to see, believing what they want to believe' precisely (almost) what they are accusing 'Leavers' of doing.

Farage stepped into the chasm left by our so called liberal politicians, between what they wanted to do and what the majority of Britain's living in Britain, didn't want to do and he applied political pressure until the pips squeaked. I don't agree with everything Nigel says, not by a long way, but he almost single-handedly and suffering much personal abuse in the process, forced a question to be put, the answer to which has brought forth an idea whose time has come... and there is little that is more powerful than that.

Yes on here I mean.
Why call remainers remoaners - 17.4 million people have decided to put the country they live in and the so-called remoaners , in dire danger, they have a right to moan about it, it's insane.
If you think that no-one has a right to moan then Brexiters should have accepted the 1975 referendum result and just shut up. Suck it up as Brexiters say.
There are very few remainers on here that have moved abroad, as far as I know there's only myself and Kentonio who live abroad and I didn't vote , I can't remember if Kentonio did or not. There's a couple of anti-EU rather than pro-Brexit posters living abroad posting on here in FBR and Stan but they didn't vote.
Other posters; non-British people living outside the UK are quite welcome to join the discussion and express their opinion. Strange, Brexiters don't seem to like that.

The difference between remainers and leavers is that the leavers can't put forward one single point of benefit for the Leave campaign , nothing adds up, it's so easy to disprove. There is some opinion but most of it is actual things Brexiters claim the UK will do when quite clearly they won't be able to do.
I could claim I'm going to win the lottery and I'll be sorted for the rest of my life, it's not going to happen , living in some dream world and ignoring all obvious outcomes won't make it happen.

Back to Farage- he receives a lot of personal abuse because he is a racist and a xenophobe, very simple.
He used people's prejudices to advance his political career, not very successfully but let's say notoriety and hid behind UKIP to revel in his hatred for foreigners. He couldn't openly act like the National Front or other neo-Nazi organisations and tried to distance himself from them, constantly denying he is a racist or xenophobic, just a born liar.
So we're at the point now where the Uk will leave the EU, the Uk will be so called independent, he has no further purpose.

So if someone said Adolf Hitler was their hero, what would you say, because they liked the way he played music, I was born yesterday, didn't you know.

 

[Stanley Road]

Talking of Adolf, Austrians vote tomorrow and it looks likely to be a far right anti eu vote.

 

[I Believe]

Why call remainers remoaners

Because they are remoaners, you just said "they have a right to moan", hence they are called 'remoaners', its not rocket science Paul!

If you think that no-one has a right to moan then Brexiters should have accepted the 1975 referendum result and just shut up. Suck it up as Brexiters say

First of all I didn't say they didn't have the right to moan, its just that it becomes repetitive and pointless, when the losing side keep moaning and the referendum has been held and the result known.

If, as you say the brexiteers, should have accepted the results of the first referendum, they probably would have if it had been about creating a super state, but it was about joining a common market.

There are very few remainers on here that have moved abroad

Thank you for clearing that up!

leavers is that the leavers can't put forward one single point of benefit for the Leave campaign

Control of our own borders; Make our own laws; dispense our own justice; make our own trade deals; save around £8-10B in subs! (you should know these by now Paul)

Back to Farage- he receives a lot of personal abuse because he is a racist and a xenophobe, very simple.

No one in public life should have to be subject to personal abuse and their families suffer threats, no matter how much you disagree with their ideals, that is a slippery slope, as I am sure you are old enough to realise Paul. Disagree by all means, as I said I don't agree with everything Nigel says, but he has been a catalyst for millions to have their views listened to and that's what I suspect you and the other 'remainers/remoaners'
cannot forgive.

So we're at the point now where the Uk will leave the EU, the Uk will be so called independent, he has no further purpose.

That may well be true! However I suspect it won't be, unless the UK is not so called independent, but is actually independent!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Because they are remoaners, you just said "they have a right to moan", hence they are called 'remoaners', its not rocket science Paul!

First of all I didn't say they didn't have the right to moan, its just that it becomes repetitive and pointless, when the losing side keep moaning and the referendum has been held and the result known.

If, as you say the brexiteers, should have accepted the results of the first referendum, they probably would have if it had been about creating a super state, but it was about joining a common market.

Thank you for clearing that up!

Control of our own borders; Make our own laws; dispense our own justice; make our own trade deals; save around £8-10B in subs! (you should know these by now Paul)

No one in public life should have to be subject to personal abuse and their families suffer threats, no matter how much you disagree with their ideals, that is a slippery slope, as I am sure you are old enough to realise Paul. Disagree by all means, as I said I don't agree with everything Nigel says, but he has been a catalyst for millions to have their views listened to and that's what I suspect you and the other 'remainers/remoaners'
cannot forgive.

That may well be true! However I suspect it won't be, unless the UK is not so called independent, but is actually independent!

So let's be equally childish and call the Brexiters bremoaners because they must be moaning about the EU, duh!
Who cares if the referendum result is known, it's not going to change people's minds and it's not going to stop them protesting about it - it's not going to help to sit back and let a bunch of gullible fools destroy their country.

I didn't say they should accept the result from 1975 and shut up. I said you can't complain, sorry moan, that the 2016 result is not accepted either, you can't have it both ways.

The items you list are exactly confirm the incorrectness. The Uk does control its own borders - one down, the UK does makes its own laws, two down, dispense your own justice, enemies of the state, three down, save £8-£10bn - already lost that and far more to lose - four down - I'll give you the fifth that you can make your own trade deals , of course that will be after the UK has regained it's WTO some time in the future, better hope that transitional deal comes through and lasts long enough, don't forgot that you'll need all those many teams of negotiators dealing with every country individually - the few you've got at the moment work for the EU. Better start the customs and civil servant recruitment and building all those facilities, yet more expense, going to prove very expensive saving all that money.

If you think the membership of the EU means a USE then that is another assumption and you say that is not what you voted for. The UK could have blocked that if that would have ever been the case.

Now let's get back to 2016.
Some Leavers voted for the £350m or at least this imaginary money to be spent on the NHS - can they change their mind as this money doesn't exist and if it did it won't be spent on the NHS.
Some thought that the UK didn't control its borders, some thought that immigrants were criminals, some thought that the Uk had no control over their laws, some even thought that all the immigrants would go home or immigration would stop altogether, etc etc
As all of these people were wrong, they haven't voted for what they thought they were voting for.

Farage deserves everything he gets - he promotes hatred and because of his actions thousands of people receive far worse abuse than he has, all he has to do is shut up and disappear.
If you don't condemn what he is then you are complicit.

The Uk will revert to what it was pre the EEC - US puppet, if that is what you think is independent

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Talking of Adolf, Austrians vote tomorrow and it looks likely to be a far right anti eu vote.

I don't follow Austrian politics very closely - does that mean that all neo-Nazis are anti EU, weird that they call the EU fascists.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I'll be retired by then, maybe I will start posting as Stan De Wolf when I retire.

You could change it to Stanny de la Rue

 

[I Believe]

Who cares if the referendum result is known,

Clearly you do, but are 'sniping from behind cover', sorry, from over the water!

I didn't say they should accept the result from 1975 and shut up. I

Sorry, I thought that is what you meant, perhaps these should be referred to as the 'Common Marketeers'?

The Uk does control its own borders -

Only as far as non-EU immigrants are concerned.. this is old hat Paul, clutching at straws!

the UK does makes its own laws

Only those that do not impinge on EU matters, everything else is governed by Brussels Directives that the UK is then required to turn into, or to incorporate into existing UK law ... no choice...Paul you really have not grasped this EU Directive lark have you?

dispense your own justice,

Subject to overarching European Law and to final appeals to the ECJ

enemies of the state,

Not quite sure what you mean by this, in the context of the EU?

save £8-£10bn - already lost that and far more to lose

As far as the negotiations are concerned no agreements have been reached yet. Theresa has offered to pay what we owe, if it can be shown that we owe it; obviously the EU can't do this, or if it can it is reluctant to present an itemised bill. I suspect financially the EU 'bean counters' couldn't find their own a*** with both hands.

I'll give you the fifth that you can make your own trade deals

Thank you, point noted.

If you think the (1) membership of the EU means a USE then that is another assumption and (2) you say that is not what you voted for . (3) The UK could have blocked that if that would have ever been the case.

(1) It does mean precisely that, that is the end goal, that's what the EU will be able to go 'full steam ahead' for when we are gone!
(2) Never asked if we wanted to vote for this, until June 2016!
(3) The British public never got to debate this whole total integration into USE thing, until it became an ' in or out' situation. No political party in Britain, except UKIP, ever planned to ask, or even to discuss this with the British people, until Cameron and he had his hand forced by Nigel and some within his own party. Some 'opt outs' of various issues were negotiated, at various treaty's along the way, but this had the effect of depicting the British as being 'poor or reluctant' Europeans and was in fact, the beginning of the end. Britain was effectively relegated to the second division in the EU and if we had stayed, we would never have gained promotion, especially whilst still retaining the pound sterling.

Now let's get back to 2016.

Some remainers believed Britain would float off into the Atlantic after 23rd June, some remainers actually stated that industry would crumble, millions made unemployed, within days or weeks of the vote being known, some remainers said we would lose all our current EU workers, they would leave in droves, some remaoners can't get over that they lost, some remoaners want to continue a debate and keep having referendums, until they get the result that they want, no remainers ever gave a single positive reason for remaining in the EU, every utterance they made was in terms of 'project fear', all remoaners can't accept that Brexit is an idea whose time has come!

Farage deserves everything he gets

Farage deserves praise for sticking to his ideas, but above all for becoming the catalyst that gave millions of people in Britain a voice!

The Uk will revert to what it was pre the EEC - US puppet, if that is what you think is independent

Hah, Hah... or we could become the '52nd State', or was it 'runway 52'? You've forgot those two. I should stay where you are Paul, you can always come back for a visit on your British Passport (that's if you retain it!)

 

[Paul the Wolf]

@I Believe
Back to your old tricks of half quoting, the others gave up with you taking everything out of context
Sorry I'm going to stop as well, you clearly hold the same views as Farage which are totally unacceptable.
Like all Brexiters though you refuse to accept anything approaching reality and as usual revert to snide remarks because you lose the debate.
The Brexiters deserve everything that's coming their way, unfortunately the remainers have to suffer too because they won as well apparently .
Don't worry there is no way I will ever come back.

 

[I Believe]

Don't worry there is no way I will ever come back.

Sorry about that, I enjoyed our exchanges, you are right we will never convince one another, but then we never would, would we?

Enjoy your retirement Paul.
Best wishes.