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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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JPRouve said:
Today, he would be a foreigner and will have no right to enter the territory.
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So you think that the German national will be turned back at the airport???

I believe you are mistaken.

There are no EU laws that apply directly as such. The EU decides on something and then each country has to implement this law into its own laws. So already the UK laws are the same as the EU laws. This will not change if the UK does not change any laws.
 
Also adding to the above, each country can close the border or impose duties, or do whatever, even while inside the EU. Any country's laws are above whatever the EU decides. Then the EU can decide to impose penalties to this country, but that's that.

An example is Hungary that closed its borders to immigrants, even if the EU directives and the Schengen agreement forbids it. The Schengen agreement is valid because each country has absorbed it into its own laws. Every country can change its own laws any time, and the only thing the other countries can do is to expel it from the Schengen area. There is no EU law that applies directly and automatically to every country.
 
CA_vampire said:
So you think that the German national will be turned back at the airport???

I believe you are mistaken.

There are no EU laws that apply directly as such. The EU decides on something and then each country has to implement this law into its own laws. So already the UK laws are the same as the EU laws. This will not change if the UK does not change any laws.
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That's not how international laws work and that's not what the EU did, these agreements are between member states and in international treaties. The status of EU citizens is an agreement between member states, that is enshrined in the treaties that the UK are repealing with Brexit, that's in part what Brexit means. They do not recognize the treaties that they signed with the other 27 members, one of these agreement is that they unilaterally grant free access to their territory to EU citizens and also that the right of these EU citizens are under the ECJ jurisdiction.
 
Gee Male said:
So if Mexico decide that they're going to allow free movement into the US, that'd be good right?
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They can't decide for the US. But they can definitely decide for themselves, for example to allow everyone from the US get into Mexico without checking anything.

Another example. Pakistan may decide to follow every EU law and directive and incorporate it into their laws. They may also decide to have the Euro as their national currency. That's fine. They can do that. Of course, the EU does not have to reciprocate.
 
JPRouve said:
That's not how international laws work and that's not what the EU did, these agreements are between member states and in international treaties. The status of EU citizens is an agreement between member states, that is enshrined in the treaties that the UK are repealing with Brexit, that's in part what Brexit means. They do not recognize the treaties that they signed with the other 27 members, one of these agreement is that they unilaterally grant free access to their territory to EU citizens and also that the right of these EU citizens are under the ECJ jurisdiction.
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I believe you are mistaken.

There are national laws and only national laws apply inside each country. The UK national laws allow people from Germany to enter under some particular requirements. This is not going to change. (Except if UK changes the laws. )
 
International Treaties mean absolutely nothing if they are not reflected into the National Laws. Only National Laws apply inside each country.

That's why Trump and the Congress can forbid some country's nationals to enter USA. Sure, there are treaties about it... but they have any practical effect only if the national law conforms.
 
CA_vampire said:
International Treaties mean absolutely nothing if they are not reflected into the National Laws. Only National Laws apply inside each country.

That's why Trump and the Congress can forbid some country's nationals to enter USA. Sure, there are treaties about it... but they have any practical effect only if the national law conforms.
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Not sure you understand how the EU works. Being part of it means you accept supremacy of European laws. Apart from that, the US is in a position of power, the UK is not. Its position is in fact incredibly weak here.
 
CA_vampire said:
They can't decide for the US. But they can definitely decide for themselves, for example to allow everyone from the US get into Mexico without checking anything.

Another example. Pakistan may decide to follow every EU law and directive and incorporate it into their laws. They may also decide to have the Euro as their national currency. That's fine. They can do that. Of course, the EU does not have to reciprocate.
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What I will say will be very oversimplified as I think you lack the most basic knowledge of how relationships between two countries (or blocks of countries) work

DO you know that UK chossed Brexit because they want to restrict Freedom of Movement?

If a German goes to London and UK applies restriction of movement (Brexit), he will be turned back.

UK can give as much freedom of movement in people, goods, services, etc...is as you say their choice. And they said ALL THE TIME that they will restrict freedom of movement.

As Mexico can't decide for US, UK can't decide for EU. So if UK goes out (Brexit) of the Customs Union, UK is out. EU could decide to give freedom of movement, freedom of goods. feck! is what actually is happening now and the EU is willing to continue like this. But if the UK doesn't want to give 1 of the 4 freedoms, the EU will not give neither the same freedom (is basically, reciprocity), but it happens that the 4 freedoms in the EU comes in a pack, you can't divide them or 0 or 4, you can't cherry pick.

So after Brexit, they can decide which freedom (and how much freedom ) can give to anyone/anything, but the EU will do the same. And without a treaty that states how much freedom of movement you can't have, there is NO MOVEMENT AT ALL. UK is blocked from the EU, nothing can't enter to the EU from the UK if the EU doesn't allow it and viceversa.

The "emegency treaty" after brexit is the WTO (You look it yourself) where the EU and the UK are part of it and is not 100% but a certain amount of freedom at a price (taxes, burocracy, etc...) so people, goods, services, capitals, will have to be controlled and to be controlled you need a BORDER.

But WTO only contemplates a few things. for example without an agreement (probably it will be an emergency one, even verbal one) 1 second after the 29th of March, the UK planes, can't fly over europe and viceversa. And that is just an example. Basically because the agreement that allows planes to fly to europe and viceversa will be burnt after Brexit
 
CA_vampire said:
I believe you are mistaken.

There are national laws and only national laws apply inside each country. The UK national laws allow people from Germany to enter under some particular requirements. This is not going to change. (Except if UK changes the laws. )
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The UK already changed the law by repealing EU treaties. Here the issue concerns the relationship between two different jurisdictions and two different territories, it's not about what happens within each jurisdiction, it's about the legal environment of transborder flux.
At the end of the withdrawal period, all the treaties signed between the UK and the EU are void, that's what triggering art.50 of the Lisbon treaty leads to but that's also confirmed by the withdrawal bill that the UK passed months ago. So when you suggest that the laws don't change it's kind of way too late.
 
JPRouve said:
The UK already changed the law by repealing EU treaties. Here the issue concerns the relationship between two different jurisdictions and two different territories, it's not about what happens within each jurisdiction, it's about the legal environment of transborder flux.
At the end of the withdrawal period, all the treaties signed between the UK and the EU are void, that's what triggering art.50 of the Lisbon treaty leads to but that's also confirmed by the withdrawal bill that the UK passed months ago. So when you suggest that the laws don't change it's kind of way too late.
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You talk about treaties. I am talking about the UK National Laws.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Not sure you understand how the EU works. Being part of it means you accept supremacy of European laws. Apart from that, the US is in a position of power, the UK is not. Its position is in fact incredibly weak here.
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Yes, I know how EU works. Every country has to incorporate the EU laws into their National Laws. Otherwise they are not valid. And sometimes it takes years till they actually incorporate the EU laws into their own laws.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/applying-eu-law_en

"Each directive contains a deadline by which EU countries must incorporate its provisions into their national legislation and inform the Commission to that effect.

The Commission assists member countries in correctly implementing all EU laws. It provides online information, implementation plans, guidance documents and organises expert‑group meetings.

The Commission will take steps if an EU country:

  • does not fully incorporate a directive into its national law by the set deadline
  • might not have applied EU law correctly
"

There are multiple examples that EU countries failed to incorporate EU laws into their own laws.
 
CA_vampire said:
So you think that the German national will be turned back at the airport???

I believe you are mistaken.

There are no EU laws that apply directly as such. The EU decides on something and then each country has to implement this law into its own laws. So already the UK laws are the same as the EU laws. This will not change if the UK does not change any laws.
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Errr... unless they sort out the mess about flying before then, said German won’t be able to fly to the UK
 
CA_vampire said:
Yes, I know how EU works. Every country has to incorporate the EU laws into their National Laws. Otherwise they are not valid. And sometimes it takes years till they actually incorporate the EU laws into their own laws.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/applying-eu-law_en

"Each directive contains a deadline by which EU countries must incorporate its provisions into their national legislation and inform the Commission to that effect.

The Commission assists member countries in correctly implementing all EU laws. It provides online information, implementation plans, guidance documents and organises expert‑group meetings.

The Commission will take steps if an EU country:

  • does not fully incorporate a directive into its national law by the set deadline
  • might not have applied EU law correctly
"

There are multiple examples that EU countries failed to incorporate EU laws into their own laws.
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I mean, not only it's irrelevant but have you read the part under "applying EU law".
 
CA_vampire said:
Yes, I know how EU works. Every country has to incorporate the EU laws into their National Laws. Otherwise they are not valid. And sometimes it takes years till they actually incorporate the EU laws into their own laws.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/applying-eu-law_en

"Each directive contains a deadline by which EU countries must incorporate its provisions into their national legislation and inform the Commission to that effect.

The Commission assists member countries in correctly implementing all EU laws. It provides online information, implementation plans, guidance documents and organises expert‑group meetings.

The Commission will take steps if an EU country:

  • does not fully incorporate a directive into its national law by the set deadline
  • might not have applied EU law correctly
"

There are multiple examples that EU countries failed to incorporate EU laws into their own laws.
Click to expand...

If you do understand the EU, I don't know how you were asking the border questions you started with in this thread earlier today. They related to the fundamentals of the EU.
 
JPRouve said:
I mean, not only it's irrelevant but have you read the part under "applying EU law".
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Yes I did. The National Courts apply the EU law. There are no EU courts in every country (only a central one and yes, you can escalate it to that in some cases).

This is quite different from the USA, where there are Federal Laws, and Federal Courts. There is no equivalent in the EU. There are no EU Courts in every country. It is up to National Courts.
 
CA_vampire said:
Yes I did. The National Courts apply the EU law. There are no EU courts in every country (only a central one and yes, you can escalate it to that in some cases).

This is quite different from the USA, where there are Federal Laws, and Federal Courts. There is no equivalent in the EU. There are no EU Courts in every country. It is up to National Courts.
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The CJEU.
 
Here is some more reading for you:

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/germany-leading-breaker-eu-rules-883837

"New figures from Germany’s Economics Ministry reveal that Angela Merkel’s government currently faces no less than 74 infringement proceedings for failing to adequately and timely convert EU rules into German law. “We’re no longer the model pupil – we’re bottom of the class,” Green Party politician Markus Tressel told Handelsblatt. The Green Party requested the numbers from the ministry.

The latest available EU-wide data, which uses figures from the end of 2016, already shows Germany topping the list of violators, together with Spain. And though the ministry’s new figures show a decrease, it’s still 20-percent higher than in 2012. “The government performs badly in converting EU directives into national law, especially in the areas of traffic and environment,” said Mr. Tressel."




Reality Check: How much UK law comes from the EU?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36473105
 
CA_vampire said:
Yes I did. The National Courts apply the EU law. There are no EU courts in every country (only a central one and yes, you can escalate it to that in some cases).

This is quite different from the USA, where there are Federal Laws, and Federal Courts. There is no equivalent in the EU. There are no EU Courts in every country. It is up to National Courts.
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And by having that facility to refer cases, the countries abide by the fact that EU laws have supremacy. Which the UK will remove themselves from through Brexit, which will also cause the problem for them that there are fecking gaping gaps in their own national laws that they haven't made the slightest effort to plug and will be another huge mess.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
And by having that facility to refer cases, the countries abide by the fact that EU laws have supremacy. Which the UK will remove themselves from through Brexit, which will also cause the problem for them that there are fecking gaping gaps in their own national laws that they haven't made the slightest effort to plug and will be another huge mess.
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Yes, but if the UK does not change its law, the current laws will apply.

There are no gaps. Either the UK has already incorporated the EU law in its own National laws, or it hasn't. If it hasn't, there is a gap right now, while still in the EU.

Of course many countries take their time incorporating those laws, read the article for Germany in the link I gave above:

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/germany-leading-breaker-eu-rules-883837
 
CA_vampire said:
So you think that the German national will be turned back at the airport???

I believe you are mistaken.

There are no EU laws that apply directly as such. The EU decides on something and then each country has to implement this law into its own laws. So already the UK laws are the same as the EU laws. This will not change if the UK does not change any laws.
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Pretty sure you are mistaken, we have to repeal UK laws post Brexit
 
CA_vampire said:
Yes, but if the UK does not change its law, the current laws will apply.

There are no gaps. Either the UK has already incorporated the EU law in its own National laws, or it hasn't. If it hasn't, there is a gap right now, while still in the EU.

Of course many countries take their time incorporating those laws, read the article for Germany in the link I gave above:

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/germany-leading-breaker-eu-rules-883837
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How would the current laws still apply when they're no longer in the EU? What a landmine for the legal profession there.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/jan/13/brexit-eu-human-rights-act-european-charter

I'm familiar too with tardiness implemeting EU laws - Ireland have been fined for it in the past
 
"Angela Merkel’s government currently faces no less than 74 infringement proceedings for failing to adequately and timely convert EU rules into German law."

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/germany-leading-breaker-eu-rules-883837

Every country applies their own National Laws within their borders. They have their National Courts and their National Law Enforcement Agencies. There is no European Federal Agencies like in the USA, no FBI or no Federal Courts.

Yes, there is a central european court, but usually you have to escalate only after you go through the national courts.

I don't know why people are so confused about this.

When UK leaves the EU, the UK National Law will still apply. This National Law already contains the EU directives and laws and treaties. It will still apply, till the UK Parliament changes some laws.
 
CA_vampire said:
Yes, but if the UK does not change its law, the current laws will apply.

There are no gaps. Either the UK has already incorporated the EU law in its own National laws, or it hasn't. If it hasn't, there is a gap right now, while still in the EU.

Of course many countries take their time incorporating those laws, read the article for Germany in the link I gave above:

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/germany-leading-breaker-eu-rules-883837
Click to expand...
CA_vampire said:
"Angela Merkel’s government currently faces no less than 74 infringement proceedings for failing to adequately and timely convert EU rules into German law."

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/germany-leading-breaker-eu-rules-883837

Every country applies their own National Laws within their borders. They have their National Courts and their National Law Enforcement Agencies. There is no European Federal Agencies like in the USA, no FBI or no Federal Courts.

Yes, there is a central european court, but usually you have to escalate only after you go through the national courts.

I don't know why people are so confused about this.

When UK leaves the EU, the UK National Law will still apply. This National Law already contains the EU directives and laws and treaties. It will still apply, till the UK Parliament changes some laws.
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But the UK have decided they don't want the EU law related to Freedom Of Movement to apply to them, for example. It won't apply.
 
CA_vampire said:
Okay, here is another take: The problems with the borders and NI arise only if UK changes its laws (for people or goods). Right now, UK has the same laws as the rest of the EU on many issues.

Assume the following:

1. UK leaves EU in March, without a deal, but it does not change any of its laws. Ie. UK effectively still conforms to EU laws, taxes, and so on.
2. Later in 2019, UK holds a new referendum, about re-joining the EU or creating hard borders. Hopefully, people will be more informed then.
3. If rejoining wins, it applies again to the EU. If hard borders wins, well... good luck!

Is this practical?
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If the UK leaves the EU without a deal it is paralysed. There can be no flights or ships or trains or anything between the two.
They cannot sell anything to the EU because its standards will not be recognised by the EU.

It doesn't matter if the UK doesn't change its laws. All agreements with the EU will be void.
The German cannot fly to the UK so will not be at the airport.
The immigrants Hungary refused are not EU citizens they are refugees from outside the EU. THe EU wanted to share them out amongst various countries. Schengen has nothing to do with it.

If the UK leave with no deal there will be a hard border, it is obligatory. From 30th March 2019.
The border issue isn't only about people and goods, it's about movement of capital and services and legal jurisdiction.

These are a tiny fraction of the problems that no deal will cause- if you care to read back then you will see what they are.
No you do not understand the EU.
 
CA_vampire said:
"Angela Merkel’s government currently faces no less than 74 infringement proceedings for failing to adequately and timely convert EU rules into German law."

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/germany-leading-breaker-eu-rules-883837

Every country applies their own National Laws within their borders. They have their National Courts and their National Law Enforcement Agencies. There is no European Federal Agencies like in the USA, no FBI or no Federal Courts.

Yes, there is a central european court, but usually you have to escalate only after you go through the national courts.

I don't know why people are so confused about this.

When UK leaves the EU, the UK National Law will still apply. This National Law already contains the EU directives and laws and treaties. It will still apply, till the UK Parliament changes some laws.
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That part is totally wrong, there is a hierarchy of norm, conventional international laws are above ordinary laws; also according to the CJEU, EU directives that aren't transposed in national laws come into force anyway and are to be applied by national courts, countries have around 2 months.

But again that's irrelevant because the issue isn't about directives or decisions.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
How would the current laws still apply when they're no longer in the EU? What a landmine for the legal profession there.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/jan/13/brexit-eu-human-rights-act-european-charter

I'm familiar too with tardiness implemeting EU laws - Ireland have been fined for it in the past
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Yes, exactly, Ireland and many other countries have been fined because their National Law does not conform to the EU Law. It happens all the time, for all countries. No countries have National Laws that are 100% in conformance with the EU laws and directives. It is the Ireland Law that applies inside Ireland. The EU law is powerless, if it is not implemented inside the Ireland National Law. That's why the EU gives fines, the only tool they have, in order for Ireland to change their National Laws and be in conformance with the EU Law.

Let's say that tomorrow EU decides that the minimum salary will be 15 euros per hour. Each country will create a new law that makes the minimum salary 15 euros per hour, for that country. If a country leaves the EU next year, their national law will still say that the minimum salary is 15 euros per hour (till they change that law to something else, if they ever do change it).
 
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CA_vampire said:
Every country applies their own National Laws within their borders. They have their National Courts and their National Law Enforcement Agencies. There is no European Federal Agencies like in the USA, no FBI or no Federal Courts.

Yes, there is a central european court, but usually you have to escalate only after you go through the national courts.
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Pretty sure in the US there is the Federal Court, but usually you have to escalate only after you go through the state courts. That’s kinda how high courts work anywhere.

The idea that Britain leaves the EU with no deal but just decides to leave things as they are (even if they could) cause “hell, let’s keep Freedom of Movement for all EU nationals & their goods. We don’t care that they won’t be doing the same and our ecomony will drop off the face of the planet” is mind boggling man.

And for your knowledge...

EU law and its application
  • regulations and decisions become binding automatically throughout the EU on the date they enter into force
  • directives must be incorporated by EU countries into their national legislation
What that is telling you is that regulations & decisions are NOT written into national law. Only directives are as the countries themselves have some leeway on how to implement those directives into their national law.

Freedom of Movement for example is a regulation.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:141:0001:0012:EN:PDF
 
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Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Pretty sure in the US there is the Federal Court, but usually you have to escalate only after you go through the state courts. That’s kinda how high courts work anywhere.
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You are mistaken.

USA has multiple Federal Courts and Federal Judges in every State, and multiple Federal Agencies (FBI, ICE, DEA, Customs etc) again in every State. There are Federal Crimes and State crimes. For Federal Crimes (for example printing counterfeit dollars) you go to a Federal Court, not to local court. There are Federal Prisons and local prisons and so on.

Europe has nothing similar. There are no EU Courts in individual countries, and no EU Law Enforcement Agencies in the individual countries (or anywhere). Even the Customs officers are not EU Officers, they are local officers under their localized laws of the individual counties. EU is very very very different from USA.

For example, for California:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_courthouses_in_California
 
CA_vampire said:
You are mistaken.

USA has multiple Federal Courts and Federal Judges in every State, and multiple Federal Agencies (FBI, ICE, DEA, Customs etc) again in every State. There are Federal Crimes and State crimes. For Federal Crimes (for example printing counterfeit dollars) you go to a Federal Court, not to local court. There are Federal Prisons and local prisons and so on.

Europe has nothing similar. There are no EU Courts in individual countries, and no EU Law Enforcement Agencies in the individual countries (or anywhere). Even the Customs officers are not EU Officers, they are local officers under their localized laws of the individual counties. EU is very very very different from USA.

For example, for California:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_courthouses_in_California
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The EU is not a country, you are comparing international law with domestic law, which is again irrelevant to this thread.
 
CA_vampire said:
You are mistaken.

USA has multiple Federal Courts and Federal Judges in every State, and multiple Federal Agencies (FBI, ICE, DEA, Customs etc) again in every State. There are Federal Crimes and State crimes. For Federal Crimes (for example printing counterfeit dollars) you go to a Federal Court, not to local court
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Yet you can escalate appeals etc from State to Federal, which was my point.

It wasn’t an important point anyhow and is not at all relevant here, just an observation. So why ignore the rest of my post @CA_vampire which contained all of the actual stuff you have been questioning?
 
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CA_vampire said:
You are mistaken.

USA has multiple Federal Courts and Federal Judges in every State, and multiple Federal Agencies (FBI, ICE, DEA, Customs etc) again in every State. There are Federal Crimes and State crimes. For Federal Crimes (for example printing counterfeit dollars) you go to a Federal Court, not to local court. There are Federal Prisons and local prisons and so on.

Europe has nothing similar. There are no EU Courts in individual countries, and no EU Law Enforcement Agencies in the individual countries (or anywhere). Even the Customs officers are not EU Officers, they are local officers under their localized laws of the individual counties. EU is very very very different from USA.

For example, for California:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_federal_courthouses_in_California
Click to expand...
I was watching “making a murderer part 2” last night and they said that he’d been repeatedly denied/failed appeals at local court/state level. They were now escalating to the federal court. They pointed out that the federal court doesn’t hear the case as such - they just deal with if your rights in the constitution have been denied and if you can prove that they can order a retrial in state
 
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