Normally you would say so, but it just feels like nothing comes of any revelations atm. Everyone seems to be covering up both here and in the US. Hopefully Mueller gets something on Farage and dominoes start falling. I have no faith in UK.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Normally you would say so, but it just feels like nothing comes of any revelations atm. Everyone seems to be covering up both here and in the US. Hopefully Mueller gets something on Farage and dominoes start falling. I have no faith in UK.
Paul. Believing immigration is contributing to making things worse does not equate to not wanting foreigners in the UK.
As above. Community research on immigration shows people can see the pluses as well as the minuses. having concerns about immigration does not necessarily mean you are racist or xenophobic.
The shutting and shouting down of the debate, by the likes of yourself, only contributes to the entrenched positions of both sides.
Yes and the Brexit nonsense. Let's hope things move fast.
Why would people believe that immigration is contributing to making things worse unless they had been lied to. If they have been lied to the problem is the people who are lying to them and the people believe the lies because like all the other reasons that people believed contributed to Brexit they never checked whether they were being lied to.
Even then, if believing immigration is a contributor , why do these people not believe it is British people or their government that are causing their woes, my definition of xenophobia may not be the same as yours, people don't even realise they are.
No-one is shutting the debate, the whole theme of this thread has been to ask people why they voted/believed what they did, the usual outcome was that their beliefs were disproved and they'd disappear.
Lately it is basically full of remainers commenting on the latest developments.
Funnily enough Cameron is probably the only PM in a generation who has delivered on his election promise in delivering a referendum. Shame he picked an absolute stinker of an issue to follow through on
Isnt it a case of everyone else that was up for the job was an even bigger cnut? The tories I imagine want someone that can at least attempt to hide their contempt for the people of the UK.
The most shocking this there is that its the Mail reporting it.
I supposed they've accepted there's no stopping Brexit now and its time to destroy May, scapegoat her for everything and pave the way for Boris.
That is exactly what will happen. She will take the fall for everything.
They had a change of editor, this one is a remainer.
Mail online is a separate organization though. I’m not sure where they stand, as they mostly seem to be all about the half naked pictures and clickbait.
Now that is interesting, I missed this one.
Having had the chance to read through this completely , there is absolutely nothing that is at all surprising and is exactly as expected.
The answers on line and face-to-face are totally different, so which one is correct bearing in mind that how many people will admit to being xenophobic to someone's face rather than anonymously on line, likewise not many would admit it on here because they would be banned.
Extract - what a surprise.
These options also divided respondents along social lines and by political affiliation, much more so than the other policy choices we posed in the survey. Remain voters (59%), Labour voters (50%), 18-24s (47%), students (56%) and those living in large cities (45%) were more likely to favour compromising on freedom of movement in return for a better deal for business. In contrast 53% of Leave voters believed that the UK should not offer a preferential immigration deal to the EU, even if business would lose out, compared with 16% of Remain voters. Conservative voters, older people, those without higher level qualifications and those who live outside big cities were also more likely to favour this option.
In summary, overall it is a criticism of the handling of the government's immigration policy and these people are recommending stuff which is already there but not implemented. This further reveals their lack of understanding of the matter.
The real problem is the reason people think like this and this is what needs tackling but it is not in the interest of the government to tackle this matter.
Over two years after the referendum and how many people do you think have changed their attitude/mind, I would guess not many, do you? the evidence is all there to be seen but the Brexiters are not interested otherwise everyone would be calling for this idiotic decision to be overturned.
I don't know if there is a majority but lets not forget who the 2nd biggest party was in the last GE here. I'm sure there is no concerns when you live in the Booneys but in big cities it can be different, people living on top of each other get the nark sometimes.
Isn’t it usually the other way around when it comes to polling on immigration?
But as shown in the UK survey, it is those who don't live in the cities and who have least contact with foreigners that are more likely to be against immigration.
Le Pen came second in France too, but the anti-immigration sector of the public isn't directed towards Europeans. I'm not denying there is a section of French people who are anti-immigration.
Here we are talking about Brexit, not overall immigration, not asylum seekers nor refugees nor illegal immigrants nor immigrants from other parts of the world, that's another subject.
I'd argue the opposite re the disparity in online and face to face survey results (No matter the subject online debate invariably leans towards more extreme and polarised positions) You seem obsessed with this idea that significant numbers of people who voted to leave lie about their reasons and have stated this on numerous occasions. On what are you basing this other than more guesswork? Do you think remain voters have lied about why they voted remain and if not why not?
There are 47 recommendations which are new recommendations based on the National Conversation findings with particular emphasis on addressing local "pressure points" and massively improving local integration.
What do you mean by "these people are recommending stuff which is already there but not implemented"? This doesn't make sense so give me just, say, six examples from the forty seven? Initiatives, proposals, policy change etc etc
Re those who have changed their mind I'm of the opinion that significant numbers have and that a vote tomorrow would be a vote to remain. That's guesswork though. You guess not many because that fits your narrative.
There are many factors in peoples choices its not just about anti foreigners. Just wait till job markets crash around europe and youll see a different sentiment.
Not everyone was who voted Brexit was a racist/xenophobe but every racists/xenophobe did vote for Brexit.
My question was if Dutch people wanted European people to leave.
If you hadn't noticed that the UK is boasting about their low unemployment and NL is even lower - is this the immigrants' fault?
whereas France is 9%, strangely in France the people blame the government.
The irony is amusing.
The answer is some do. During tougher times when dutch builders have less work, eastern europeans have work cos they undercut. So the answer is not as black and white as you seem to think. At the moment healthcare and hospitality are desperate for people but now we've emptied eastern europe what do we do? I heard someone in the supermarket getting trained in english the other day. Some bar staff only speak english, they weren't europeans. So eu countries should employ people from other lands but on a need be basis and i think that rule should apply to europeans too.
That suits your narrative and that's your opinion , disagree totally. What are you basing this on, guesswork?
It's more difficult to tell if someone is lying online but face to face is very easy. You just have to ask the right questions. This is vital.
You also omitted to mention the extract I quoted, would this be because it doesn't suit your narrative and agrees with my opinion? And this is assuming people told the truth.
A lot of the points don't just deal with Brexit but with overall immigration. Imo I would guess that it would be easier for a German,for example, to live in Britain than someone from a central African country or a Muslim Asian country, for example. Germany may seem like another planet to some but to me it's not that different to the UK. We'll just concentrate on EU citizens so number of points is rather limited. However, here we go:
13. Involve the public in decisions about future EU migration policy through an official National Conversation on Immigration, and a public information campaign after the Brexit negotiations are concluded.
It is called electing the government and all their policies.
14. Give a unilateral commitment to EU nationals currently living in the UK that
their status is secure in the event of the UK leaving the EU without a final deal.
Did May lie then?
15. Introduce a mandatory Home Office registration system and Canadian-style criminal vetting for future migration from the EU.
The UK have no idea who's in the country, who's departed and who is a criminal, as I said the incompetence of the UK government, the controls they already have.
16. Introduce controls on some or all low-skilled migration from the EU, through a bar on recruiting EU nationals into jobs that pay less than the National Living Wage and/or a work visa system.
Minimum Wage may give a clue to this, isn't it illegal to pay someone less than the minimum wage in the UK?
17. Simplify the Tier 2 visa system covering the recruitment of migrant workers from outside the EU and reduce the £30,000 pay threshold for Tier 2 visas.
Why should anyone have to earn £30k to be able to live in the UK?
18. Make sure that all migrant workers – from outside and within the EU - have clear and affordable routes to settlement and British citizenship, which should act as a lever to encourage integration in the UK.
Yes it cost me €55 to become French. Yes much more expensive in the UK. Strangely I chose to become French and also didn't suddenly become capable of speaking french or integrating into french life after I became a french national. Jesus wept.
There's a guy on here who lives in Germany but wants to stay British, believe he's lived there 25 years, have a feeling he may have integrated by now. But who cares about him?
19. Make sure that HMRC and the Gangmaster and Labour Abuse Authority have sufficient resources to enforce that National Minimum Wage and National Living Wage and other labour standards.
Already exists, government failure again.
20. Sector skills councils should be required to work with the Government, the further education sector, employers and professional bodies to reduce the UK’s dependence on migrant workers.
This is laugh a minute, no mention of aging population. There are loads of vacancies in the NHS, what are they waiting for?
21. Prioritise tackling unemployment, under-employment and precarious work among young people.
Not really specifically EU related?
This is not to mention the ability of the UK government to send back EU nationals who cannot support themselves or who are criminals or are a burden on the state.
As I said in summary it is all about government failure and deliberate misleading of the public including through their media mouthpieces.
If people could be bothered to check this out we may not be where we are. But they don't want to do they.
Now if you are right and that the public mood has swung massively towards remain, what the bloody hell are you all doing, we must accept our fate and suffer heroically and maybe in another 40 years we can change it all, I despair.
Yes of course. Local people also work 'on the black' so they can undercharge as well. As you know I was in commerce and even had companies trying to undercut us by them making a loss. All good fun.
As the NHS is emptying itself of EU workers they can go to NL. When I employed people, the criteria was only how capable they were at doing the job, not their origin , colour or anything else.
As the rules currently exist, as long as the said EU immigrant is not a burden on the country he has gone to then why should people object?
But in this opinion (agreed by @Barca84 ) of yours you are not denying xenophobia, just justifying why there is xenophobia. So if it is a major factor that caused xenophobia, we double down xenophobia as 2 major reasons. Xenophobia per se, and xenophobia cause by the crisis + is in our nature (wowee)
I've posted multiple times now that xenophobia has been a factor in the Brexit vote. Nobody denies that. The extent of that xenophobia and of outright racism, which despite Paul's recent protestations has long been an accusation he's levelled at the leave vote, is highly debateable. I've taken specific and particular disagreement with a statement by Paul and been quite clear about the basis on which I've done that. It's a narrative he's been peddling on here for years and it needs pulling up.
Who is "you"? I voted to remain. Neither did I say there has been a "massive" swing. You're making things up.
You keep avoiding my question about why you think leave voters would lie? For the third time this is. One simple question and little room to deflect or obfuscate. How does the face to face research in this report differ from the online surveys?
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I suspect this is a reflection of your locality there in France, the colour of your skin and your faith/lack of it. Based on a three year survey of over 100 countries where people were asked "How worried are you about being subject to a physical attack because of your skin colour, ethnic origin or religion?" the French results reported significantly greater fear of hate crime in France than in the UK.
Reasons to be fearful in France from the wiki:
For each year since 1990, the French National Commission on Human Rights (French: Commission nationale et consultative des droits de l'Homme) publishes a report regarding the state of Racism in France.[5]
In 2016, the commission reported that, 33% of the French believe that races do not exist while 8% believe that some races are superior to others.[5] It is believed that the 2015 terrorist attacks in France led to a greater presence of Islamophobia, and also raised the number of racist acts. Complaints of anti-Muslim acts and threats increased by 223% and the incidence of violent racist attacks were higher in the month following each terrorist attack.[5]
According to the commission, this data does not show the full reality as its only based on police data and people does not systematically report racist issues.[5]
The commission also reported that, 34% of the French population consider Islam as something negative, and 50% of them consider it a menace against national identity. In addition, 41% of the population believe that Jews have a singular relationship with money and 20% of them believe that Jews have too much power in France.[5]
Sounds very similar to the picture you portray of the UK to me with France's own special leaning towards long standing anti-semitism. Basically if you're a Muslim, Jewish or brown skinned there's a good chance you wouldn't be feeling such a welcoming community spirit.
@Paul the Wolf, here you will notice the wiki somehow managed to completely ignore one side of the research which is actually the title of the article.
About being xenophobic and racist?
My own family lies about this, the whole "I'm not racist but...."
When asked by anyone in public as to why the voted leave, a whole bunch of wishy washy nonsense answers come out.
Same reason all of the polls showed Hilary would clearly win the last Presidential election, people lie, especially when covering up darker sides of their personalities.
Thanks
Here is the article kindly provided by JPRouve - the title translates as "The French are more tolerant despite a tense climate" and continues on to say that since 2014 after the recession they are becoming more tolerant.http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fr...actes-de-violences-atteignent-des-records.php
If you had read one of my posts yesterday I said I did not deny there was a section of French people who are anti-immigrant, usually led by the feeling that they were sponging off the state, rings a few bells.
Interesting you should talk about other ethnic groups, when I moved here in 2007 I don't think there were any non-Europeans in the village and surrounding areas, now there are at least half a dozen families of Caribbean/African/Arab/South Pacific and everyone is just as welcomed as anyone else.
We have English, Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch, Belgians as well as French. I am even learning some phrases in the local patois "dialect" - and I m not offended when other people speak a different language.
Now I have walked into a pub in some country village in the UK many a time and the whole place goes deathly quiet. I didn't even have to be of a different colour or speak a different language.
Yep, I'm making it up.
I know you voted Remain, that's what I meant, why don't the Remainers do something , if as you say even though you say you didn't that Remain would now win, now in a democratic world if the public has changed their mind surely you don't sit back and accept your fate gracefully.
If you read my posts correctly, I said yesterday that you can't be racist against people of the same race and that you didn't seem to understand the difference , and apparently that seems to be the case.
I said why voters would lie, face to face they don't have the guts to admit it unless they're some raving neo-Nazi.
I don't know if you are deliberately trying to be obtuse but you correctly brought up the fact that the results of the two surveys were different and I agree.
Ignoring the fact that they seem to have been done over different periods of time and to different sets of people it is hardly surprising they are different. The face to face poll seems very moderate but there could be many factors to this including that a lot of the people asked were not white British people.
Asking a question like ' Do you like people of a different skin tone to yours" rate it from 1 to 10 is useless. If you're online anonymously people will feel more free to answer them without worry Now if the question was asked face to face by say someone of Asian or Caribbean origin, there is a possibility that that answer could be different.
Questions have to be much more subtle and and discuss it with people face to face. Someone with a reasonable amount of intelligence can pick up quite quickly whether people are lying or hiding something.
By the way you've still ignored all my points particularly about the 53% of Leave voters against 16% of Remain voters preferring to sacrifice trade against immigration policy per the survey you quoted. Probably my imagination, making it up.
You accept the research in the Le Figaro article but refuse to apply to that your scepticism for the UK research which you have dismissed for a variety of nebulous reasons including it's methodology and, as is the norm with yourself, a continued insistence that the UK public is lying. Who's to say that the "more than one French in two claims not to be racist "at all" are in fact lying? Apply the same criteria or this appears both hypocritical and inconsistent. As an aside I note the research period ends 2016 and just this year there have been numerous reports on a frightening upsurge in anti-semitism.
As backup you produce these anecdotes of yours, which are great but are just that..anecdotes. Invariably when I walk into a UK pub I end up chatting with someone. Our German relatives look forward to visiting due partly to the warm welcome they've received wherever they've been be it shops, cafes, pubs - a welcome and friendliness from strangers that they don't experience at home. In the social spaces that I frequent I encounter a wide variety of nationalities and ethnicities and all are welcomed. These are snapshots though, anecdotes, isolated personal experiences which is why, as interesting as they may be, don't paint an overall picture. I don't claim that this is typical nor evidence of of a wider societal norm.
We generally find people much more welcoming and polite in the uk when we visit.
The pub argument is hit and miss tho, depends where you go.
The pub argument is hit and miss tho, depends where you go.
Of course I have also worked and experienced life all over France but because you found an article that suits your agenda you know better, brilliant.
But that's beside the point. You keep straying from the subject at hand. Here we are talking about Brexit. British people objecting to Europeans. Now can you find one of your articles that says that French people object to European people being amongst them.
The subject at hand is this..
That's what I've taken you to task on. Part of your response has been to infer that France is more pro foreigner than the UK. You've used your experience of your current place of residence in comparison to your former as some form of anecdotal and highly subjective evidence that the UK is less welcoming. I've provided some data that suggests otherwise.
Stop making things up
I'll get back to you later, now watching the match
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