Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
It's always fun to trace how Brexiteers have adapted their arguments throughout the process. Gradually this has gone from something with the potential to transform the UK for the better to something that won't quite be as disastrous as everyone's making out.

Which isn't that unusual but it's the fact they then mock others for predictions backed up by the treasury, businesses, economists and do so arrogantly. Most discussion in here is backed up in some fashion or other.

No doubt this I'll be that unwelcoming leftists being mean to the right leaning nonsense :nervous:
 
It's always fun to trace how Brexiteers have adapted their arguments throughout the process. Gradually this has gone from something with the potential to transform the UK for the better to something that won't quite be as disastrous as everyone's making out.

That's because its gone from the mansion house speech, to cheques, to May's shit all out surrender deal.
 
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/brexit/the-eu/the-meaningful-vote-deferred-what-now/

The “meaningful vote” deferred: What now?
December 13, 2018 Graeme Cowie


On Monday 10 December, the Prime Minister told the House of Commons she would no longer be asking it to vote on the motion to approve her deal with the EU on Tuesday 11 December. The House had been expected, under the Business Motion it approved the previous week, to debate the approval of the negotiated withdrawal agreement and framework for the future relationship for two further sitting days and to vote on it on the evening of Tuesday 11 December.

The Prime Minister is now seeking further “assurances” from the EU as to the legal status and effect of the Northern Ireland backstop provision, which means it is not clear whether the Government believes that it still has “political agreement” with the EU.

So where are we now in terms of the approval process? This Insight looks at what might happen next.

A frozen debate, but no decision
The House did not formally take any decision on either the Government’s approval motion or any amendments to it. By deferring the debate, but not specifying when it will resume, the Government has effectively “frozen” that debate. No resolution has been adopted, but equally no motion or amendment has been rejected. Simply put, the Commons has not taken a decision.

This means that section 13(4) of the Withdrawal Act is not (yet) engaged: the Government does not currently have to make a statement as to any contingency plans it has in the absence of Parliamentary approval for its negotiated deal.

What significance does “political agreement” have?
Under the Withdrawal Act, the presence or absence of “political agreement” or “agreement in principle” between the UK Government and the EU is important for two distinct reasons.

Firstly, if the Government wishes to ratify a withdrawal agreement, one of the things it must first do is make a “statement that political agreement has been reached” for the purposes of section 13(1)(a) of the Act. This is one of three documents that must be laid before Parliament, alongside the “negotiated withdrawal agreement” and the “framework for the future relationship”. The Government made a statement that political agreement had been reached on 26 November 2018.

Secondly, if the Government concludes that “no agreement in principle can be reached”, or if we reach 21 January and “no agreement in principle has been reached”, then the Government must make a statement as to how it intends to proceed, and then hold a debate for the Commons to discuss its implications. This is also, separately, what the Government must do if the Commons formally decides not to approve the deal (as explained earlier).

Do we still have “political agreement” between the UK Government and the EU?
Given that the Prime Minister is now seeking further “assurances” from the EU as to the legal status and effect of the Northern Ireland Backstop provision, it is not clear whether the Government believes that it still has “political agreement” with the EU for the purposes of section 13(1)(a).

If it does still have that agreement, and its statement of 26 November to that effect still holds, it suggests that the Government is not legally required, as things stand, to make any statement on 21 January 2019 in the absence of further political developments. Any commitment to make a statement to the House on contingency plans before or by 21 January would be a political one, not the result of a legal obligation.

However, in both the Prime Minister’s remarks on 10 December and those of DExEU Minister Robin Walker on 11 December, the Government appears to be attaching continued legal significance to the deadline of 21 January 2019. Theresa May mentioned “21 January” on four occasions in the Chamber, and during the Urgent Question debate, Robin Walker said the following (emphasis added):

“In the unlikely and highly undesirable circumstances that, as of 21 January, there is no deal before the House, the Government would bring a statement to the House and arrange for a debate, as specified by the law.”

The fact that the Government is still treating the 21 January 2019 as a legally relevant deadline as regards what it must do in Parliament implies that political agreement may already have lapsed. Alternatively, it may suggest that such agreement could lapse (depending on the outcome of the Prime Minister’s further discussions with the EU) at some point between now and 21 January 2019.

If political agreement has lapsed and is not re-established what must happen?
If political agreement has lapsed, and no new statement of political agreement is reached, the Government must, within five calendar days of 21 January, make a statement setting out how it proposes to proceed. It must then move a motion for debate on its statement within five sitting days of 21 January.

When might the Government bring back a deal?
The Government could, legally, bring back a proposal to approve a deal any time before the UK formally leaves the EU. At the moment, that would mean any time before 29 March 2019. However, there are other requirements the Government must meet before it can ratify any deal. Most importantly it must also procure the passage through Parliament of the proposed EU (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill to implement the deal in domestic law. The Withdrawal Act 2018 requires this legislation to be passed before the Government can ratify the withdrawal agreement.

The Government has, however, suggested that it will bring back any deal it wishes Parliament to approve “before 21 January”. DExEU Minister Robin Walker said on Tuesday (emphasis added):

“Put simply, in keeping with the clear intention of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, the Government will ensure that the question whether to accept an agreement is brought back to this House before 21 January. If Parliament accepts that deal, we will introduce the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill to implement the withdrawal agreement in domestic legislation.”

This is a political commitment that goes beyond the legal requirements of the Withdrawal Act. The Act does not require a “meaningful vote” to take place on any deal before the 21 January.

For example, the Government could, legally, have made a statement that political agreement has been reached on 20 January and then scheduled a “meaningful vote” for some point in February or March. This would have superseded any requirement to make a statement on its contingency plans, even though the Commons had not expressed a view on that deal by 21 January.


There are only two hard constraints on the holding of the “meaningful vote”, whether by resuming the frozen debate or bringing forward a new one. The first is that the Government must “so far as is practicable” seek to hold that vote before the European Parliament votes on whether to consent to the deal (we had expected them not to do this until early March). Secondly, the vote must take place before the UK formally exits the EU, since the withdrawal agreement must be ratified before then.

I do wonder how late they might string this out to leave the choice as hard brexit or mays deal.
 
Labour are only interested in toppling the government. They wouldn't back any deal that divides Tories.
No deal is an option, but no one will back it, and the EU know it, so they can demand what they like.

We are heading for a second referendum, that is what I think is going to happen.

And what is wrong with Labour trying to topple the government.
Isn't that what opposition parties are supposed to do.
Or does that only apply when the Tory party is the opposition....
 
And what is wrong with Labour trying to topple the government.
Isn't that what opposition parties are supposed to do.
Or does that only apply when the Tory party is the opposition....

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it.
It does present a complication however.
 
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/brexit/the-eu/the-meaningful-vote-deferred-what-now/
I do wonder how late they might string this out to leave the choice as hard brexit or mays deal.
That could well be the effect but I don't think it's the intention. I think May wants May's deal and is just trying to achieve agreement on that as best she can. Which she probably won't of course, but I don't think it's some sort of deliberate stringing out to help the hard brexiters, who she disagrees with.
 
To be fair he also determinedly stated multiple times that we'd start trade talks last October. That's the interesting thing about threads this long, when you arrogantly mock posters your own post history better look damn good.

It's why I've been consistent throughout.
 
Last edited:
Any leaks about the Tory debauchery at their Xmas party last night?

May going around with a glass of champers in one hand and giving the finger to her colleagues with the other?
 
And what is wrong with Labour trying to topple the government.
Isn't that what opposition parties are supposed to do.
Or does that only apply when the Tory party is the opposition....
One would certainly expect an opposition to try and topple a government, by offering a better realistic alternative. Labour have consistently offered no alternative on Brexit at all apart from an impossible have cake and eat it plan which absolutely no one thinks will happen, not even Labour themselves.
 
So who erects a border if no one wants one?

The UK will. If they don't, then either (a) they don't have any borders with any other country in the world under WTO rules, or (b) they reject WTO rules and become effectively a pariah state like North Korea.

This is basic stuff. It's your move.
 
That could well be the effect but I don't think it's the intention. I think May wants May's deal and is just trying to achieve agreement on that as best she can. Which she probably won't of course, but I don't think it's some sort of deliberate stringing out to help the hard brexiters, who she disagrees with.
It must feel frustrating to many. We have 27 countries plus the PM of the 28th and say 75% of that Government's MP's that would pass this deal.

When this started I would never thought there could be anything like that degree of agreement.

This is all about the DUP and Tory headbangers.

Whatever tinkering she brings back is not going to satisfy most of them.

She should declare a free vote and maybe pick up some moderate Labour votes.
 
Any leaks about the Tory debauchery at their Xmas party last night?

May going around with a glass of champers in one hand and giving the finger to her colleagues with the other?
I heard that TM cheekily edged her skirt up above the knee to do the okey-cokey - even worse than running through wheat fields. What a 'serrlag'
 
It must feel frustrating to many. We have 27 countries plus the PM of the 28th and say 75% of that Government's MP's that would pass this deal.

When this started I would never thought there could be anything like that degree of agreement.

This is all about the DUP and Tory headbangers.

Whatever tinkering she brings back is not going to satisfy most of them.

She should declare a free vote and maybe pick up some moderate Labour votes.
That's the only plan I can think she has really, and to be fair she can't have had that much time in the last few days to work out how to go about it. I suspect it will be her, and her staff's, christmas holiday project.
 
That's the only plan I can think she has really, and to be fair she can't have had that much time in the last few days to work out how to go about it. I suspect it will be her, and her staff's, christmas holiday project.

Prime Minister, have you considered...killing all the poor?
 
One would certainly expect an opposition to try and topple a government, by offering a better realistic alternative. Labour have consistently offered no alternative on Brexit at all apart from an impossible have cake and eat it plan which absolutely no one thinks will happen, not even Labour themselves.

I'd say their plan for a permanent custom union is a significant difference to May's plan.

But to be fair how can they oppose or propose alternatives if May won't bring her deal to parliament :lol:
 
That's the only plan I can think she has really, and to be fair she can't have had that much time in the last few days to work out how to go about it. I suspect it will be her, and her staff's, christmas holiday project.

Ken Clarke was among a group of Tories that advised Heath to do that in 1970 with the vote to join the then common market. There were loads of anti-europe Tories even then, but a good few pro-europe Labour voters. From an almost hopeless position Heath got a decent majority - over 100 I think.
 
It must feel frustrating to many. We have 27 countries plus the PM of the 28th and say 75% of that Government's MP's that would pass this deal.

When this started I would never thought there could be anything like that degree of agreement.

This is all about the DUP and Tory headbangers.

Whatever tinkering she brings back is not going to satisfy most of them.

She should declare a free vote and maybe pick up some moderate Labour votes.

75% of a minority government isn't anything to boast about but she doesn't even have that by most counts. She doesn't even have half of her own backbench thinking she should lead!

It's amusing hearing Tories try to square brexit debate with their bias towards the government
 
I'd say their plan for a permanent custom union is a significant difference to May's plan.

But to be fair how can they oppose or propose alternatives if May won't bring her deal to parliament :lol:
Yes, but not just a permanent custom union, one that will allow them to manage migration and strike separate trade deals as well, which we all know is impossible, and that was my point.

Labour have had a year and more to put forward a realistic plan to the nation and they could do so immediately, it doesn't have to be done in parliament and they don't have to wait for a parliamentary vote.
 
75% of a minority government isn't anything to boast about but she doesn't even have that by most counts. She doesn't even have half of her own backbench thinking she should lead!

It's amusing hearing Tories try to square brexit debate with their bias towards the government
I was just trying to illustrate the weight of support for this deal across the EU. Of course, if you miss by an inch, you may as well have missed by a mile.
 
It must feel frustrating to many. We have 27 countries plus the PM of the 28th and say 75% of that Government's MP's that would pass this deal.

When this started I would never thought there could be anything like that degree of agreement.

This is all about the DUP and Tory headbangers.

Whatever tinkering she brings back is not going to satisfy most of them.

She should declare a free vote and maybe pick up some moderate Labour votes.

A free vote applied to her party and not the whole parliament. Labour is tirple line whipping its MP's against the deal.
 
A free vote applied to her party and not the whole parliament. Labour is tirple line whipping its MP's against the deal.
The ruse in 1970 was that if the Tories declared a free vote then Labour would feel that it couldn't whip their MP's. It worked back then, but sure these may be different times.
 
I'd say their plan for a permanent custom union is a significant difference to May's plan.

But to be fair how can they oppose or propose alternatives if May won't bring her deal to parliament :lol:

Why does May need to bring her deal to parliament for Labour to come up with their own vision for Brexit?

That’s the most insane/infuriating thing in all of this. Dickhead politicians sniping from the sidelined about what a terrible deal May has come up with, without making any attempt to explain what a better alternative might be. All so they can make a power grab, without having to fix the shitty situation the Brexit referendum has put the UK in.

It’s blatantly taking the piss out of the Uk electorate. And Corbyn is just as guilty of this as Farrage, Johnson and Reece-Ponce.
 
Why does May need to bring her deal to parliament for Labour to come up with their own vision for Brexit?

That’s the most insane/infuriating thing in all of this. Dickhead politicians sniping from the sidelined about what a terrible deal May has come up with, without making any attempt to explain what a better alternative might be. All so they can make a power grab, without having to fix the shitty situation the Brexit referendum has put the UK in.

It’s blatantly taking the piss out of the Uk electorate. And Corbyn is just as guilty of this as Farrage, Johnson and Reece-Ponce.
This!
If they cannot come up with a feasible alternative then May's vote should win due to no-contest.
 
The UK will. If they don't, then either (a) they don't have any borders with any other country in the world under WTO rules, or (b) they reject WTO rules and become effectively a pariah state like North Korea.

This is basic stuff. It's your move.

This simply won't work.

I don't care how many people you threaten, there's no way you'd get a crowd of people to cry like that for Theresa May.
 
We did tell you, what else did you expect, Mansion and Chequers were dead before the ink was dry.

Mansion house wasn't a deal, it was an intended course of action which included the government's response to a bad deal. This was also backed up in the conservative election manifesto.
 
The UK will. If they don't, then either (a) they don't have any borders with any other country in the world under WTO rules, or (b) they reject WTO rules and become effectively a pariah state like North Korea.

This is basic stuff. It's your move.
Ireland reject it.
 
Mansion house wasn't a deal, it was an intended course of action which included the government's response to a bad deal. This was also backed up in the conservative election manifesto.

Both Mansion and Chequers were intended courses of action which were never going to fly, I know the current deal sounds bad, but it's the best there is if the UK intend to eventually leave the CU & SM.

What if Ireland refuse a border?

Who will errect it?

Neither wants the border but they both have to - alternatively NI stays in the CU and SM.
 
The ruse in 1970 was that if the Tories declared a free vote then Labour would feel that it couldn't whip their MP's. It worked back then, but sure these may be different times.

Well yes we all know about that but these are very different times. The deal does not meet labour test and manifesto commitments on which they were elected.