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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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cyberman said:
Isn't May correct though? Everybody is playing party politics here that has ground the process down to a halt.
Your parliament has very little comeback to that in my opinion.
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I don’t sympathise for May at all, but I do acknowledge that she is in a no-win situation. Pretty much every other parliamentarian knows that they probably couldn’t come up with anything different to what May has - so rather than try to take some control and responsibility, they would rather just keep her as the scapegoat because they know they can’t do any better themselves. This is why they voted against indicative votes and have voted against every other idea brought forward.

May is not guiltless and I have no sympathy, but she is not the only culprit by a country mile.
 
Walrus said:
I don’t sympathise for May at all, but I do acknowledge that she is in a no-win situation. Pretty much every other parliamentarian knows that they probably couldn’t come up with anything different to what May has - so rather than try to take some control and responsibility, they would rather just keep her as the scapegoat because they know they can’t do any better themselves. This is why they voted against indicative votes and have voted against every other idea brought forward.

May is not guiltless and I have no sympathy, but she is not the only culprit by a country mile.
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I agree with elements of this, but had she attempted to co-operate from the very start rather than immediately create a series of red lines that only a section of parliament agreed with and then pursued that for two years without listening to anyone not in her own party despite an incredibly narrow margin of victory for leave. It was the time for diplomacy and not entrenchment on a unilateral position.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
I agree with elements of this, but had she attempted to co-operate from the very start rather than immediately create a series of red lines that only a section of parliament agreed with and then pursued that for two years without listening to anyone not in her own party despite an incredibly narrow margin of victory for leave. It was the time for diplomacy and not entrenchment on a unilateral position.
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Can’t disagree with any of that.
 
cyberman said:
Isn't May correct though? Everybody is playing party politics here that has ground the process down to a halt.
Your parliament has very little comeback to that in my opinion.
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Wait a minute... are you saying that May has not been playing party politics all along?

That she didn't waste time by calling for a snap election merely to consolidate her position (which back fired)? That she didn't give in to all the ERG red lines post-Chequers to try and keep her party together and herself in power above all? That she didn't willingly exclude all opposition parties from the negotiating process, even though she knew her party didn't even have an outright majority in parliament and would struggle to unilaterally pass an agreement through?

This isn't on her? We imagined all of this?
 
MadMike said:
Wait a minute... are you saying that May has not been playing party politics all along? That she didn't waste time by calling for a snap election merely to consolidate her position (which back fired)? That she didn't give in to all the ERG red lines post-Chequers to try and keep her party together and herself in power above all? That she didn't willingly exclude all opposition parties from the negotiating process, even though she knew her party didn't even have an outright majority in parliament and would struggle to unilaterally pass an agreement through?

This isn't on her? We imagined all of this?
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It appears revising the present is the new revising history. It's all Corbyn's fault.
 
MadMike said:
Wait a minute... are you saying that May has not been playing party politics all along?

That she didn't waste time by calling for a snap election merely to consolidate her position (which back fired)? That she didn't give in to all the ERG red lines post-Chequers to try and keep her party together and herself in power above all? That she didn't willingly exclude all opposition parties from the negotiating process, even though she knew her party didn't even have an outright majority in parliament and would struggle to unilaterally pass an agreement through?

This isn't on her? We imagined all of this?
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But she had the impossible task from the start. I'm not saying she's blameless but when you have th DUP positioning themselves for a no deal, the ERG within her own party praying for the same outcome with a Labour leader who would want to see the same outcome then what more can she do? Britains negotiations were hobbled from the get go, it was known as a poisoned chalice for a reason.
They send her off with unicorn demands to Brussels then string her up when she can't get them. The time to come together to map out a Brexit deal was months ago, never mind today yet here we are. Politicians positioning themselves on the titanic for the post Brexit elections.
She didn't really say anything different from what most level headed folk has said for almost years now.
If she were Scholes she'd be getting praised for her comments!
 
balaks said:
He certainly hasn't helped the situation.
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You're right. He should have gotten the DUP and ERG in order, and got his Tory whips to back his deal and control his own party. He should have negotiated with the EU earlier.

Oh wait,
 
cyberman said:
But she had the impossible task from the start. I'm not saying she's blameless but when you have th DUP positioning themselves for a no deal, the ERG within her own party praying for the same outcome with a Labour leader who would want to see the same outcome then what more can she do? Britains negotiations were hobbled from the get go, it was known as a poisoned chalice for a reason.
They send her off with unicorn demands to Brussels then string her up when she can't get them. The time to come together to map out a Brexit deal was months ago, never mind today yet here we are. Politicians positioning themselves on the titanic for the post Brexit elections.
She didn't really say anything different from what most level headed folk has said for almost years now.
If she were Scholes she'd be getting praised for her comments!
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But she chose to get into bed with the DUP. And the reason she chose to do that is because she chose to call for an early election. For which she chose to not campaign for and ended up in a worse position than the one she started in.

Her job was very hard from the start but she made it impossible, by compounding mistake upon mistake. Not blameless? She has the highest portion of blame of all. 0 fecking sympathy for her
 
balaks said:
He certainly hasn't helped the situation.
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I agree he hasn't. I hold Corbyn responsible for the two below failures...

1) Even though a 2/3rds majority of his party's voters are pro-Remain he failed to represent them by not adopting a pro-Remain stance. As a result 48% of the country's voters ended up with no representation in parliament among the two biggest parties. They ended up represented only by the Libs and the SNP.

2) He provided inefficient opposition by dragging Labour into scandals, failing to articulate what his plans were and failing to consolidate and control his party (TIG example in case). Labour have lost more MPs than the Tories since the parliament formed in 2017. Despite not being subjected to anywhere near the same pressure as the Tories.

He might be feckless, but this still not primarily his fault.
 
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Adebesi said:
Second highest. Surely Cameron carries the largest burden of the blame.
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Cameron made one major feck up, a truly god awful one, but May has had almost three years of awful decision after awful decision. I think she's worse. She has basically steered the UK to a no-deal Brexit through her constant incompetence.
 
MadMike said:
I agree he hasn't. I hold Corbyn responsible for the two below failures...

1) Even though a 2/3rds majority of his party's voters are pro-Remain he failed to represent them by adopting a pro-Remain stance. As a result 48% of the country's voters ended up with no representation in parliament among the two biggest parties. They ended up represented only by the Libs and the SNP.

2) He provided inefficient opposition by dragging Labour into scandals, failing to articulate what his plans were and failing to consolidate and control his party (TIG example in case). Labour have lost more MPs than the Tories since the parliament formed in 2017. Despite not being subjected to anywhere near the same pressure as the Tories.

He might be feckless, but this still not primarily his fault.
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We should have had a Tory government led by a Leaver and a Labour opposition led by a Remainer, and we got the opposite. Members of both parties, and their MPs, should take most of the blame for that.
 
Adebesi said:
Second highest. Surely Cameron carries the largest burden of the blame.
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Perhaps. Debatable. He made a massive mistake by calling the referendum, especially at the time that he did, but that was his only mistake. It's between one of those two. May has made way more mistakes even if no one was as big individually as calling for the referendum.

He campaigned vigorously for Remain as being best for Britain and he rightly stepped down after losing the vote, as he couldn't lead after opting for the losing side. He also thought he would win and hit 2 birds with one stone by fending off UKIP and his backbenchers as well as kicking this can 20-30 years down the road.
 
711 said:
We should have had a Tory government led by a Leaver and a Labour opposition led by a Remainer, and we got the opposite. Members of both parties, and their MPs, should take most of the blame for that.
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Stop acting like that voters didn't have a role to play here.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Cameron made one major feck up, a truly god awful one, but May has had almost three years of awful decision after awful decision. I think she's worse. She has basically steered the UK to a no-deal Brexit through her constant incompetence.
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What is the one major mistake?

Calling a referendum in the first place was a mistake.
The handling of the campaign was utterly inept, so that is a second.
Absolutely no planning whatsoever about what happens if they lose, that's a third.

Even May's harshest critics agree she was in an unwinnable situation by the time this shitshow landed in her lap. Cameron has no such excuse.
 
MadMike said:
Perhaps. Debatable. He made a massive mistake by calling the referendum, especially at the time that he did, but that was his only mistake. It's between one of those two. May has made way more mistakes even if no one was as big individually as calling for the referendum.

He campaigned vigorously for Remain as being best for Britain and he rightly stepped down after losing the vote, as he couldn't lead after opting for the losing side. He also thought he would win and hit 2 birds with one stone by fending off UKIP and his backbenchers as well as kicking this can 20-30 years down the road.
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His biggest of big mistakes wasn't the calling of the referendum. It was the complete and total failure to carry out any form of planning and risk assessment.

Even he should know the maxim - don't ask a question if you don't know what to do with the answer.
 
MadMike said:
Perhaps. Debatable. He made a massive mistake by calling the referendum, especially at the time that he did, but that was his only mistake. It's between one of those two. May has made way more mistakes even if no one was as big individually as calling for the referendum.

He campaigned vigorously for Remain as being best for Britain and he rightly stepped down after losing the vote, as he couldn't lead after opting for the losing side. He also thought he would win and hit 2 birds with one stone by fending off UKIP and his backbenchers as well as kicking this can 20-30 years down the road.
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Aye his Tory government was just brilliant aside from that.
 
May was always seen as a lukewarm remainer either way. My take on it is she saw pros and cons on both sides and weighed it up and came down slightly on the remain side, principally because that is the pro business position. But she never cared much for immigrants so it wasnt hard for her to get behind Leave.
 
Buster15 said:
His biggest of big mistakes wasn't the calling of the referendum. It was the complete and total failure to carry out any form of planning and risk assessment.

Even he should know the maxim - don't ask a question if you don't know what to do with the answer.
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What kind of plan should be expected beyond putting a negotiating team together, triggering art. 50 and beginning the negotiations? I think we're reaching a bit here.

Minimalist said:
Aye his Tory government was just brilliant aside from that.
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Far from it. I was talking from the narrow perspective of handling the Brexit/EU situation.
 


Isn't this the biggest issue with May? She seems oblivious to the fact that if her deal gets voted down (again) it'll be less than a week to prepare for a No Deal Brexit and probable chaos.
 
So is it right to say that if the deal is voted down (if she even gets another go at it) then a no deal Brexit is a 99% certainty?

Is that where we have got to?
 
Rooney24 said:
So is it right to say that if the deal is voted down (if she even gets another go at it) then a no deal Brexit is a 99% certainty?

Is that where we have got to?
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The only other option is to slam on the brakes by revoking Article 50 (hence the petition today). May would see that as a massive personal failure.

In a way, no deal is fairly likely because no-one needs to vote to agree on anything for that to happen. It's the default position on Brexit day if May's deal isn't approved in the House.
 
Rooney24 said:
So is it right to say that if the deal is voted down (if she even gets another go at it) then a no deal Brexit is a 99% certainty?

Is that where we have got to?
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Not at all. Alastair Campbell is right in saying that if her deal gets voted down again, the EU leaders would meet again and agree to a two year extension. Neither the government nor the eu will allow a no deal brexit.
IMO it’ll be a 2 year extension and then house votes for a “soft” brexit, which is basically being in the EU or another referendum after the extension with remain then winning.
 
She's an absolute masochist. Holding the future of the country to the will of 27% of the voting population.
 
Devil_forever said:
Not at all. Alastair Campbell is right in saying that if her deal gets voted down again, the EU leaders would meet again and agree to a two year extension. Neither the government nor the eu will allow a no deal brexit.
IMO it’ll be a 2 year extension and then house votes for a “soft” brexit, which is basically being in the EU or another referendum after the extension with remain then winning.
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She has to go and ask the EU for the prolonged extension, no?

If (when) her deal gets voted down, she might choose to simply sit out the remaining days until 'no deal' automatically comes in to effect.

How do Parliament compel her to act? They cannot remove/replace her in time.

She will blame the ensuing chaos on Parliament (Labour) and the EU - this began last night.
 
Infra-red said:
She has to go and ask the EU for the prolonged extension, no?

If (when) her deal gets voted down, she might choose to simply sit out the remaining days until 'no deal' automatically comes in to effect.

How do Parliament compel her to act? They cannot remove/replace her in time.

She will blame the ensuing chaos on Parliament (Labour) and the EU - this began last night.
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I have a sneaky suspicion that behind closed doors, she’s discussed it with EU
leaders already but her and them will keep putting no deal as the firm alternative to scare people into voting through her deal. No way in hell will either side allow a no deal brexit. It could have 90% public approval and they still wouldn’t allow it to happen.
 
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