Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
711 said:
Three choices, single transferable vote.
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scenario with first votes

Leave No deal 40%
Leave with deal 25%
remain 35%

With 2nd choices

Leave No deal 49%
remain 51%

you have a scenario where 35% voted for remain in the first round and we remain... I'm not sure that's going to seem acceptable to a lot of people.


I am sure the argument about what type of "remain" is it people are voting for (e.g. could further integration take place... remain and reform or remain and keep the status quo) would crop up as well - as I say legal challenges aplenty and even in this thread there are several interpratations over what the best or fairest way forwards would be and as such most people will disagree with the process and therefore most probably not accept the outcome if they dont agree with it
 
sun_tzu said:
scenario with first votes

Leave No deal 40%
Leave with deal 25%
remain 35%

With 2nd choices

Leave No deal 49%
remain 51%

you have a scenario where 35% voted for remain in the first round and we remain... I'm not sure that's going to seem acceptable to a lot of people.


I am sure the argument about what type of "remain" is it people are voting for (e.g. could further integration take place... remain and reform or remain and keep the status quo) would crop up as well - as I say legal challenges aplenty and even in this thread there are several interpratations over what the best or fairest way forwards would be and as such most people will disagree with the process and therefore most probably not accept the outcome if they dont agree with it
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Seems perfectly acceptable to me as the majority would know that if they could not have their first choice then at least they would get their second.

As for adding other choices to the three (however unicorn-like they might be) I would think that would be an advantage of the STV system, let people vote on them at the same time.
 
Guardian said:
Labour would campaign for remain in a referendum
Jeremy Corbyn has confirmed that the Labour party will campaign for remain in a referendum “against no deal or a Tory deal”.
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People genuinely arguing no deal should be on the ballot, are you fecking insane?
 
Smores said:
People genuinely arguing no deal should be on the ballot, are you fecking insane?
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It might be suicidal but it is what much of the country wants and what the Conservative and Brexit parties are leaning towards.

It makes as much (little) sense to have revocation there, when the country already voted to leave.
 
Ducklegs said:
Thats purely designed to get a reamain vote as it will split the leave vote.
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But in fact the UK are no further forward than three years ago.
There was only ever one withdrawal agreement, that's been rejected, no deal has been rejected and remain has been rejected.

And now both the Tories (Johnson or Hunt) and Labour both profess that they will renegotiate a deal. It's quite ridiculous from all of them.
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48919695

Labour is promising to campaign to Remain in a new EU referendum against "no deal or a damaging Tory Brexit".

The shift in stance was signalled by Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn, as he challenged the next prime minister "to put their deal to the people".

But the statement does not explain what Labour would do if the party won a general election.

Jeremy Corbyn has faced calls to move policy in a more pro-EU direction from senior members of the party.

In a letter to members, the party leader said: "Whoever becomes the new prime minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or no deal, back to the people in a public vote.

"In those circumstances, I want to make it clear that Labour would campaign for Remain against either no deal or a Tory deal that does not protect the economy and jobs."

The announcement follows a shadow cabinet meeting on Tuesday morning, and a meeting with trade union leaders on Monday.

The bosses of Labour's five-biggest affiliated unions called for the move the party has made - but also for it to hold a "confirmatory vote" on any new deal it negotiated if Labour won a general election.
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so basically labours still a leave party? ... provided the deal comes with added unicorns?
 
MadMike said:
It might be suicidal but it is what much of the country wants and what the Conservative and Brexit parties are leaning towards.

It makes as much (little) sense to have revocation there, when the country already voted to leave.
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The majority of the country want the death penalty and a whole host of other stupid policies it doesn't mean we do it.

The government does not operate on the whim of the public. I know most of our politicians are a shambles but I'd hope the idea of responsible government hasn't completely left the building.

And no it doesn't make as much sense as revocation. The reason for revocation is that people change their minds especially as details emerge, it's a responsible and feasible option. No deal isn't anything but dangerous, might as well stick 'bomb brussels until they give us a deal' on the ballot.
 
Smores said:
Quite a leap even for you, amusing to see people get what they want and then try and come up with something else to moan about.
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they will vote against a tory deal that does not give the protections he wanted (you know his 4 unicorn test) - by definition they would therefore vote for it with added unicorns (note he subtly changed the briefing from the unions yesterday by adding that does not protect our economy and jobs... that wasnt in the press release he specifically chose to add those words)
they then have a policy that if they win an election they negotiate an exit deal - and do you really think they negotiate a deal and then go - yeah its shit we are pants at negotiating so vote against it - course bloody not they say look at our unicorns mate and vote for red brexit - its far better than a blue one
 
Smores said:
The majority of the country want the death penalty and a whole host of other stupid policies it doesn't mean we do it.

The government does not operate on the whim of the public. I know most of our politicians are a shambles but I'd hope the idea of responsible government hasn't completely left the building.

And no it doesn't make as much sense as revocation. The reason for revocation is that people change their minds especially as details emerge, it's a responsible and feasible option. No deal isn't anything but dangerous, might as well stick 'bomb brussels until they give us a deal' on the ballot.
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A load of uninformed people voted to leave or did you miss that one?
 
Untied said:
What’s the point of having a second referendum to democratically decide the issue if you are undemocratically limiting what’s on the ballot paper. Just admit you want to live in a benevolent autocracy.
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You aren't asking if we should become the 51st State of the USA either. By simply posing questions with finite options you aren't "undemocratically" limiting people per se. Even though I think it is too late to totally take no deal off the table.
 
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Wibble said:
You aren't asking if we should become the 51st State of the USA either. By simply posing questions with finite options you aren't "undemocratically" limiting people per se. Even though I think it is too late to totally take no deal off the table.
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Now there is a brexit solution
 
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sun_tzu said:
they will vote against a tory deal that does not give the protections he wanted (you know his 4 unicorn test) - by definition they would therefore vote for it with added unicorns (note he subtly changed the briefing from the unions yesterday by adding that does not protect our economy and jobs... that wasnt in the press release he specifically chose to add those words)
they then have a policy that if they win an election they negotiate an exit deal - and do you really think they negotiate a deal and then go - yeah its shit we are pants at negotiating so vote against it - course bloody not they say look at our unicorns mate and vote for red brexit - its far better than a blue one
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As you say it's a unicorn and not deliverable, there isn't a tory deal Labour will pass without putting to the public and they won't be supporting it they'll be supporting remain. If you're criticism is they'd support it if the public voted for brexit again then fine yes they would and most would accept that.

They've already said they'll push any Labour deal to a referendum and i dont see the contradiction of saying this is what we've agreed we think it's the best leave deal do you want it? That isn't saying they've negotiated a bad deal.

For the last few month it's been hypothetical criticisms based on Labour not backing remain now that's chalked off it's moving on to the next made up scenarios. Fact is you've nothing to back up that Labour would push its deal ahead of remain at a referendum but for some reason want to get angry about it anyway.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
A load of uninformed people voted to leave or did you miss that one?
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In an advisory referendum, advisory being the key word. The government are elected to govern just because they listen to the publics views doesn't mean they act on the whim of the public.
 
Smores said:
In an advisory referendum, advisory being the key word. The government are elected to govern just because they listen to the publics views doesn't mean they act on the whim of the public.
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But A50 was triggered not only by the government but the majority of parliament. So they did.

What if there was an advisory referendum on the death penalty and people voted for it?
 
Smores said:
People genuinely arguing no deal should be on the ballot, are you fecking insane?
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Of course it would be insane to leave without a deal. But we are already down that rabit hole and that is what a significant portion of the voting populace want.
 
711 said:
Yes but they're not doing it on a whim, so it's ok.
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What is even more worrying is that Corbyn is still insisting on the same stupid deal that has already been rejected three times by parliament and told by the EU that the WA will not be amended. He's just as bad as the Tories.

The EU said not to waste the 6 months, both the Tories and Labour have wasted 3 years and it will carry on like that indefinitely until the EU run out of patience which should be at the end of October.
 
Smores said:
Quite a leap even for you, amusing to see people get what they want and then try and come up with something else to moan about.
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Not really amusing though is it when you look at the ground he has lost to the Liberals by being such a thick cnut.

If only he had done this before the European election and shown a little bit of leadership on the biggest issue facing the country he would have had my vote. Now he just looks like a desperate idiot thrashing about on a hook of his own making. You don't have to try very hard to find things to moan about just listen to the man for five minutes.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Not really amusing though is it when you look at the ground he has lost to the Liberals by being such a thick cnut.

If only he had done this before the European election and shown a little bit of leadership on the biggest issue facing the country he would have had my vote. Now he just looks like a desperate idiot thrashing about on a hook of his own making. You don't have to try very hard to find things to moan about just listen to the man for five minutes.
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its telling that they have made this announcement 15 weeks before we are due to leave
simply impossible to have a referendum done in this time by law a 10 week campaign period which puts the deadline for this to start at around 20th august... that leaves around 5 weeks for the legistlation to be passed to allow a referendum (normally takes 6 months but people think if there was massive polotical will and you copy pasted the legistlation previousley used you might be able to get this to perhaps 3 weeks)... that then gives 2 weeks to sort out question testing... which typically takes 12 weeks (and lets be honest this is going to be super contested)

Frankly it is as you say an idiot squirming on the hook due a total lack of leadership months ago

anyway this will all be forgotten by tomorrow when the antisemitism documentary comes out
 
Untied said:
What’s the point of having a second referendum to democratically decide the issue if you are undemocratically limiting what’s on the ballot paper. Just admit you want to live in a benevolent autocracy.
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Why stop there ? Lets have Labour plan, The Greens plan and The Lib Dems plan aswell on the ballot paper. Or how about Why have a simply remain position on the ballot, lets also include remain and reform as a option because something something democracy.

Just because something is popular in polling doesn't mean it has the legitimacy to be put forward to the public in a refenrendum. Having no deal on ballot is about a legitimate as letting Nigel Farage have a say in the Brexit talks because his party is polling well. So far the Goverment deal and Remain are the only two option that actual mean anything of any substance.
 
Sweet Square said:
Why stop there ? Lets have Labour plan, The Greens plan and The Lib Dems plan aswell on the ballot paper. Or how about Why have a simply remain position on the ballot, lets also include remain and reform as a option because something something democracy.

Just because something is popular in polling doesn't mean it has the legitimacy to be put forward to the public in a refenrendum. Having no deal on ballot is about a legitimate as letting Nigel Farage have a say in the Brexit talks because his party is polling well. So far the Goverment deal and Remain are the only two option that actual mean anything of any substance.
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whats the substance of the labour plan beyond red unicorns then... I mean I'm not in favour of no deal but its a lot clearer in substance than the guff labour have come up with so far
 
sun_tzu said:
whats the substance of the labour plan beyond red unicorns then... I mean I'm not in favour of no deal but its a lot clearer in substance than the guff labour have come up with so far
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I never said it was clear.
 
Sweet Square said:
Why stop there ? Lets have Labour plan, The Greens plan and The Lib Dems plan aswell on the ballot paper. Or how about Why have a simply remain position on the ballot, lets also include remain and reform as a option because something something democracy.

Just because something is popular in polling doesn't mean it has the legitimacy to be put forward to the public in a refenrendum. Having no deal on ballot is about a legitimate as letting Nigel Farage have a say in the Brexit talks because his party is polling well. So far the Goverment deal and Remain are the only two option that actual mean anything of any substance.
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The Liberals and Greens are for Remain, so their plan would already be on the ballot paper.

As should both the negotiated agreement and no deal, and possibly the Labour plan as well, if they manage to come up with one before October, by which I mean October this year.
 
sun_tzu said:
Leave means leave... Not leave with a deal or leave with no deal?
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Thanks for that, would you like to explain why remain and reform isn't remain? All governments reform, they pass laws that change things, that's the point of them.

edit: I should add I've no problem with remain and reform being on a ballot paper if it means something to someone, I'm just questioning what it means.
 
It's nice to see Labour formulate a position (well.. sort of.. the broad strokes...) three years after the referendum and like four months before the second and supposedly final extension runs out. I bet EU leaders can't wait to start negotiating with Corbyn for his own Brexit deal.
 
711 said:
As should both the negotiated agreement and no deal, and possibly the Labour plan as well, if they manage to come up with one before October, by which I mean October this year.
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If no deal is on the ballot why not have the option to join the euro on there as well ?



Again I'm just using these examples to show why no deal shouldn't be on the ballot and why no deal is no more legitimate than these examples. So far the only two option that mean anything are the government deal and remain.
 
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