With regard to catcalling in the street....
That’s really good.
Celebrity Allegations, #MeToo etc
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
That’s really good.
I don't. As I've said all along, I'm only looking at this via my own friends, I haven't checked it out on twitter or anything else.
Edit: and honestly, I can suffer a few preening eejits so that my friends can unburden themselves of heavy things they've carried around inside for years.
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Shedding light on subtle, seemingly harmless harassment such as this is also important. It's been normalized so much in society, most don't even realise the effect it has on women and the culture it creates.
Really good, but it's also bullshit. If I was in prison, I wouldn't want a guy to tell me "you have beautiful eyes". It'd make me feel fecking uncomfortable and unsafe given the nature of the place and the fact I can't avoid him in that secluded place, if I wanted to. Is that off-limits too then? In the end how are people supposed to meet sexual partners?
Every compliment can be perceived as a potentially threatening situation that could develop, depending on the counter-parties, the situation, the setting etc. Even the same comment from the same person in the same setting, can have different effect on different people. A woman who has been raped in the past might be extremely wary and uncomfortable of any male advances in any setting, while a young confident bachelorette might love it.
EDIT: And I keep repeating, it's unrealistic to expect different standards of behaviour from men and women in that context. You can't say it's not OK for men to say or do something, but it's OK for women because it's extremely unlikely that a woman could escalate that to a rape while it's possible that man could.
Also true.
Here's the thing too. I've done that before. Sometimes you get ignored. Sometimes, it actually worked.
With regard to catcalling in the street....
That doesn't go far enough for some women. Some just don't want to be spoken to.
To add to @MadMike's post, the definition of harassment sometimes changes, depending on who's approaching her. Mirroring the videos on YouTube where women tell some scrappy guy to feck off, until they see him fecking off into a Lambo.
And some do. Can't mind read, can we? And it's still a social norm that men are the ones expected to initiate contact.
Not to mention that it's unrealistic to expect no contact from the opposite sex in a society of people.
By some of these definitions I'd say the vast majority, if not all men on here have been guilty of a sexual assault in their lives.
...and victims at the same time.
You've shouted at a complete stranger on the street?
No (should have been more clear). I've approached a random woman on the street.
Crazy thing... I've seen the "shouting at a complete stranger on the street" work! I couldn't pull it off, but it's not a complete no-go for some people on both sides.
I've been shouted at from across the street by women. From cars too. What's the problem with that? People meet each other by getting the balls to communicate with someone completely new. Some people can misconstrue that as unwanted attention, but it isn't necessarily. You see videos on Facebook of women showing 'this is the amount of distress and unwanted attention we get on a daily basis' and when you watch the video it includes a person just coming up and saying hello ffs. Stuff like this is what really dilutes a legitimate cause geared towards reducing actual sexual assault/sexual harrassment.
How about using a little common sense based on the context? If you've been exchanging looks with a girl and she seems interested then 'you have beautiful eyes' might well be taken well. If you're saying it to someone you've had no interaction of any sort with, then you're at risk of just being a creep. It's not hard to tell whether someone is open to interacting with you or not.
It's fecked up because for the 1 girl in 20 who might be flattered, the other 19 will be annoyed/feel harassed etc. Does that sound like a reasonable exchange to you?
It's not fecked up at all, opposite sexes call out to each other all the time. This is where the line needs to be drawn between what is actual harassment and what's either mixed signals, trying their luck to communicate with somebody etc. Context is also important here. Also going to an extreme of 1 in 20 is just a number you pulled out of your ass. What if it's actually 15 in 20? Where did you just get that number from? It makes your point look better, but you just invented it. You can't base a decision on something you just invented.
And been victims.
Maybe the future is never speaking ever to strangers and instigating first contact via the likes of tinder only.
You don't offer a compelling arguement of why it's watered down. If 99.9% of the population have been sexually harassed in their lives, then it wouldn't hurt if the 99.9% of social media users would join the #metoo campaign. I've seen and heard many people express their shock at how many people they know reference #metoo. There's a chance it's a "hype" that blows over and everything will be as before, but there's also the potential for a far more widespread and open debate on this subject as a result of this.
If I waited for encouraging eye-contact before I approached a girl in a bar then I don’t know how many times I would have got laid in life, but it wouldn’t be that many. And needless to say that many times I thought there was encouragement but still got shut down promptly and left scratching my head.
Is every failed attempt at flirtation with a stranger sexual harassment? It’s not fecking black and white is it? However much you try to make it sound like it.
A stranger pointing a gun at you is a very clear situation, it’s fecking sheer terror and panic in 100% of the cases. A stranger telling you you have beautiful eyes could result in telling them to feck off and finding them creepy or making out with them in the next 10 mins depending on a number of factors. And near the top of the list of these factors is still how attractive you find them and what your mood is at the time. None of which the other person knows till they try.
Two threads on this very website, for starters!
The argument is this, saying “oi love come over here” could be many things. It could be a loveable rogue, it could be a creep, could be a pervert, could be a drunk, could be the lady’s future husband and an absolute charmer if she goes over and interacts with him. I’m pretty certain thousands and thousands of people have gotten together through similar exchanges.
People must flirt surely? People must be allowed to take a chance and flirt with a stranger? Surely not every failed flirt attempt is sexual harassment? Or maybe in 2017 it is.
So people interact, and must continue to do unless were gonna go down the path of never ever speaking to strangers. Maybe we should, maybe that’s what this #metoo movement will tell us.
It’d be a great shame though as I think this waters down the actual problem of actual sexual harassment which cannot be interpreted as anything but.
I have an ex missus I met after thinking we’d caught eyes in a bar (but trust me, I’ve misread that more than once), on my way to the toilet I brushed her shoulder and said wow. Thankfully she loved it and grabbed me on way back from the loo, but feck me, she could quite easily have been posting #metoo on facebook right now for that exchange.
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I reckon the vast majority of people, not just men, have done sexual assault and been victims of it, and quite often on both accounts going strictly by definition.
Absolutely - common sense is key!
What is revealing is that lots of women are coming forward but few men are admitting to being the transgressors
As a young man I remember being on the bus and an older women who was very attractive gave me a bit of a look, we exchanged a few smiles and she seemed to give me some good body language signals. She got up to leave the bus one stop before my usual stop, so i decided to see where it might go and got off the bus myself. Normally i was quite reserved and shy but something about her smile made me feel bold.
It happened that this was a quiet country lane and I mentioned to her that she was doing well walking quickly on such high heels and that they made her legs look fantastic. (hey i was a horny teenager not a poet).
She accepted my comment with grace and said it was nice to receive a compliment but then pointed out she was going to see her husband and pick up the kids.
This happened on a nice sunny midweek afternoon. Years later I realised how my behaviour could have been intimidating under different circumstances but when she said that i immediately backed off rather than give her grief or complain. I politely wished her a good trip and went home.
Maybe...
a) I totally misread the situation.
b)she WAS having a naughty thought to herself about some afternoon delight with a toy boy but then reality struck, or
c) she just wanted a compliment and went away delighted to tell her husband
d) something else was going on
Either way i hope my initial actions would not have been distressing but i acknowledge they could have been but i hope not, given that i walk away once she made those comments .
Thank you for coming forward with your story of sexual harassment.
Really? Anyone who shouts "oi love come over here" to a woman without a huge dollop of irony is almost by definition a clown. It's like the classic example of "things women have shouted at them by boorish men in the street". I would hope most women would tell a guy who shouted that at them to go feck himself.
I mean I'm sure it works on some people but really those instances reflect poorly on the intelligence of all involved.
Absolutely this - If the BBC knew nothing then how come Saville was always kept a million miles away from "children in need" shows. I'm sure he collected for it but i know Terry wogan was adamant he was not allowed on the programme.
I mean, I don’t talk anything remotely like that, but in some areas or the UK people do talk like that, to strangers, men or women even when wanting to ask something simple like ”have you got the time”, ”which way is Stamford Bridge” etc.
”Excuse me m’aam, come over here”, could also sound creepy as feck depending on who is saying it and who is on the receiving end, although if Jude Law was saying it in that wonderful English accent of his I have a feeling it’d be construed differently.
I wouldn’t be so quick to judge people on their shit vocabulary, many a woman is together with a man who can barely string two sentences together.
The original post was this: "Oi! Come ere! What's your name love?!" Shouted from the other side of a car park...
Now there's absolutely no way that this falls in the category of flirting and it isn't hard at all to see how this could've been a very threatening situation for the person this was directed at. I agree that there are times when the line is less obvious but this is not one of those. This idea that #metoo would threaten normal social interactions is a ridiculous fabrication in my opinion. Usually it should be pretty clear from the situation and context if a little teasing and flirting is appropriate. It should also be pretty clear that a car park doesn't fall in that category.
I’m not so sure.
I’m imagining a made up scene in my head here, think Green Street Hooligans.
The better looking non hobbit bloke is sat on his bonnet, sees a hot woman on the other side of the car park:
“Oi! Come ere! What's your name love?!"
“My name’s Jenny, why, what’s it to you”
“Well you’re very pretty Jenny”
“Ah thanks, you’re a right charmer arent’t ya”
“I do try, you going the game”
“Nar I don’t like football”.
“She dant like football? Blady ell.
Well gis your number then luv and let’s grab drink later instead”
“Ohh ok then, talk later”.
I’m certain this has happened plenty down the years. We no doubt all wanna believe that everyone talks like Hugh Grant but sadly they don’t.
Although I do strongly agree that it isn't hard at all to see how this could've been a very threatening situation for the person this was directed at. That’s why it’s murky for me. Most of the time in this situation it is probably a bloke with shit social skills, neither a charmer nor a sex offender.
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Don’t worry @Arbitrium has
I fully agree on the car park scenario, if the incident is described accurately. How do you rate @buchansleftleg's story though? A (horny) teenager trying his luck, or a sexual predator that needs some serious self reflection.
Did you run those stats?
Look, I've stopped doing it because I'm off the market, plus for someone in my income/occupation bracket, it's a low percentage strategy for getting laid. Plus enough people have made a stink on twitter that I've somehow internalized that all women hate it.
Reading the situation is also key. Dark alley? You probably shouldn't. A busy street in Manhattan? Read her vibe, then act accordingly. Back off if she gives a "can't be bothered" vibe.
The #metoo is not soley about people in car parks being threatening to you. It's including many different social interactions.
If I waited for encouraging eye-contact before I approached a girl in a bar then I don’t know how many times I would have got laid in life, but it wouldn’t be that many. And needless to say that many times I thought there was encouragement but still got shut down promptly and left scratching my head.
Is every failed attempt at flirtation with a stranger sexual harassment? It’s not fecking black and white is it? However much you try to make it sound like it.
A stranger pointing a gun at you is a very clear situation, it’s fecking sheer terror and panic in 100% of the cases. A stranger telling you you have beautiful eyes could result in telling them to feck off and finding them creepy or making out with them in the next 10 mins depending on a number of factors. And near the top of the list of these factors is still how attractive you find them and what your mood is at the time. None of which the other person knows till they try.
Agreed, if we start to classify basic human interaction as sexual harassment or whatnot then we are on a slippery slope. Now howling at someone at the street while driving by might be off color and maybe a bit mental, but even that i would call a pretty mild form of harassment, if at all.
That's what I meant by context and situation. From how he tells it, it looks like there was potential for a little flirting considering the context. Of course, there's always a risk of reading someone's intentions incorrectly, but if she would've reacted surprised or shocked and you apologize, I don't think many women would feel harassed by that. There are some who'd be offended by anything but I believe that to be an extreme minority.
From how he tells it. Harvey Weinstein is an angel from how he tells it. We don't know how she tells it. She could well describe it as a creepy, horny teenager started following her home off the bus and thank god he backed off when she talked about husband and kids cause feck knows what could have happened next. Stuff of nightmares and fits right in with what I've been reading these last few days. Perception of the situation is key and it can be very different to the participants. (sorry @buchansleftleg, I'm only using you as an example of a grey area situation)
The second bolded bit is the crux of the matter. For me teaching boys/men to back off, that no means no, that even if you think you were being led on you still have to back off when she says no....that's the important stuff. Not to have men not talking to women for fear of scaring them or annoying them though. A guy with charisma and good looks seems charming and a guy without it seems creepy. Both should be encouraged to try their luck. It happens to be annoyed by an approach some times and that's ok too, but that shouldn't stop people approaching.
Ultimately if rape and severe non-consensual contact were not that common, the out of the blue approach would not be so scary to some women. It's the former we need to reduce by whatever means, but that means cannot be men not trying to approach women. And that's what I find a bit over top with some of these #MeToo tags that report any unsolicited approach however mild it is.
And a final note. Rape and sexual abuse is not going away. The same way murder is not going away and muggins are not going away. Humans can be shitty and shitty things will happen. What we need is to decrease their number so it's not an immediate worry for so many women. To create better support and report systems, better prevention, better protection and worse repercussions for abusers and offenders so they don't get away it for years like Weinstein did.
If I waited for encouraging eye-contact before I approached a girl in a bar then I don’t know how many times I would have got laid in life, but it wouldn’t be that many. And needless to say that many times I thought there was encouragement but still got shut down promptly and left scratching my head.
For fecks sake, its not exactly a high bar is it? Unless you look like a melting waxwork of Rooney, its hardly unlikely a girl will smile at you and flirt a bit from time to time.
As for the encouragement but getting shut down, I'm totally with you on that. Sometimes you're going to misread something, or maybe a girl is being a bit flirty but doesn't want to do anything about it. Shit happens. As long as you deal with it ok, and don't turn into one of those dicks who starts giving her abuse for it, then its not a problem is it?
I'm not saying that at all, but hitting on women who are complete strangers and haven't even given the slightest indication that they might be interested is going to make a lot of them feel fecking irritated and pressured. Especially when its not a once in a while thing to many of them, but a 'every time I walk down the fecking street' thing.
Is crap and a big middle finger to women who have genuinely been abused and oppressed. I know some of the girls that wrote this because they've been "cat called so many times". I have no doubt the real, true sufferers of sexual harassment/assault are largely silent. These gimmicks do nothing. Strong punishments to sexual assault will.
I feel irritated with many people for many different reasons. I feel irritated at the dude that takes 10" to start off from the traffic light. At the old woman that stops dead on the pavement during rush hour, to gaze at a shop window. At the guy that smokes out on his balcony and the smoke sometimes (wind depending) drifts into my flat from my open windows. At my dimwitted co-worker who asks me the same mundane questions about my weekend every Monday morning, without me ever giving any hint of interest in engaging in a proper chat with him. Life is full of fecking irritations. Are those people harassing me?
Newflash.
Harassment: The act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands.
Key components to harassment are a) approach is definitely unwanted and b) it's continuing after it's been made clear that it's unwanted. Approaching a complete stranger with nothing but talk is not harassment. It can at best be seen as an irritation depending on your circumstances. If you tell them to feck off (politely or otherwise) and they keep persisting, that's when it becomes harassment. We live in a society. It's ok to be irritated some times.
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