"Dreaming I was Beckham, who can make balls bend
While delivering that semi-skimmed shit, to Wallsend."
Talent.
While delivering that semi-skimmed shit, to Wallsend."
Talent.
Central midfield this season...
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
When was the last time we relied heavily on the centre of midfield for creativity and goals?
We're not Arsenal. The wide players have always been key to how well do in attack. We can make up for the the lack of creativity in the centre of midfield by playing our traditional wide football. If Nani can step up and Valencia can perform to the standard Ferguson expects, then I don't think lack of goals/creativity from the CM will be much of a problem.
We're not Arsenal. The wide players have always been key to how well do in attack. We can make up for the the lack of creativity in the centre of midfield by playing our traditional wide football. If Nani can step up and Valencia can perform to the standard Ferguson expects, then I don't think lack of goals/creativity from the CM will be much of a problem.
4 shizzle, dizzle.
I don't know about relying on it strictly for creativity. But we've had goals from center midfield since before Robson's days. Dating back to Sir Bobby Charlton's time, if I'm not mistaken.
If he ever gets fit i'de like to see how hargreaves and anderson play together in centre of the park, though neither are as creative as carrick they both have bags of energy and would be difficult to [play against.
Carrick looking disappointing against Valencia tonight so far.
TBF both were pretty average.
Fletcher didn't pass it anywhere near as effectively as Carrick nor did he cover as much ground, what exactly made him better?
EDIT: Thought you were talking about tonight's performances. No great surprise that you completely ignored it. Against Inter Fletcher matched Carrick's performance by tackling more than him and only passing marginally worse.
Dunno, I wouldn't have made him man of the match. You've completely ignored the Inter match.
If they are weak where was Fletcher when we were loosing to Villa? Carrick set up the equalizer. Tottenham? Down 2 - 0 Carrick won the penalty for the first goal, shouldn't Fletcher be taking charge and turning things around? Sunderland Carrick set up the late winner, City the first goal, Portsmouth a goal to settle the tie and against Wigan he scored the winner on his weaker foot.
We managed it the season before without Fletcher, why couldn't we again?
Rubbish, we have speed to take advantage of those situations but it's not our game plan, we don't deliberately play to sit back and counter.
Nothing wrong with graft, what makes Fletcher an average player is that it's all he offers.
EDIT: Thought you were talking about tonight's performances. No great surprise that you completely ignored it. Against Inter Fletcher matched Carrick's performance by tackling more than him and only passing marginally worse.
His passing was backwards and sideways, a million miles from passes Carrick played to the forwards, that's what let us dominate against Inter, not Fletcher making a few more tackles.
Fletcher was good tonight, so was a large part of the team.
OK, now I'm gonna use an appropriate green smilie.
You're physically unable to say a bad word about Carrick, aren't you?
I think that both Fletcher and Carrick are great complimentary players but can't dictate games against the best opposition. It's disappointing as Carrick especially seems to have everything "in his locker" but the confidence to take over a game, still I guess that's what separates very good from great players. Anyway, for this reason I'd hope that we got another, experienced central midfielder.
Who won the title the past 3 seasons? Alonso and Mascherano or Carrick and (mostly) Scholes? 3 titles on the trot where we've had a midfield that's miles from a grafter and a creator yet the idea pops up time and again as a sure fix for midfield.
OK, now I'm gonna use an appropriate green smilie.
You're physically unable to say a bad word about Carrick, aren't you?
Certainly wasn't disappointing, some lovely passes, some stray ones, got forward a bit.
Touch was heavy, passing was off, lost almost every 50:50 - he was poor. If you weren't disappointed you have very low expectations of him (which, let's face it, is unlikely)
Agree with Pogue. The only times i really noticed Carrick tonight were his passes going straight to the opposition, which happened numerous times and isnt something you would expect from a player whose primary attribute is in fact his passing.
He seemed to be making more of an effort to get forward and support the attack, so perhaps he was trying to adjust to a new system, but it wasnt a good performance. Fletcher was average too, and personally I just dont see room for a "destroyer" in midfield if we play a 4-4-2 rather than a 4-2-3-1 (basically, deeper wingers).
He seemed to be making more of an effort to get forward and support the attack, so perhaps he was trying to adjust to a new system, but it wasnt a good performance. Fletcher was average too, and personally I just dont see room for a "destroyer" in midfield if we play a 4-4-2 rather than a 4-2-3-1 (basically, deeper wingers).
Top post.
Keane was not a "defensive midfielder" or a limited one like some choose to believe.
If you are playing a 4-4-2, I think a Keane type player is essential to make that work at the top level. Put it this way, Keane wouldn't have needed to be part of a midfield three against the top sides. We could have still went 4-4-2 and more often than not, Keane would demolish any opposition.
No. I didn't ignore it. I talked about the Inter match in another post. Inter are not a top midfield. They are good, but certainly not the top. And as I said, Fletcher was just as good in this particular match, although you will choose to ignore that.
Eh, you are confirming my point. Carrick plays his best against the weaker sides. That is what I said. Fletcher plays his best against the better sides. You are doing your best to prove my point.
We didn't manage to control the matches against Barcelona actually. If anything, they were well on top but just couldn't score. And, by the way, we had Hargreaves then.
I didn't say it was deliberate, but it certainly worked brilliantly because it suited Ronaldo's game. Look at all the goals we used to score on the counter attack with Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo
That's all he offers? That is an absolutely retarded statement. If that's all he offers and yet he showed last season that he was the best midfielder (that season), that doesn't say much for Carrick. He was outperformed by a player who can do nothing else but graft.
Great arguments there Mozza. You have swayed me.
Any combination of 2 of our midfield players would be good enough to beat nearly all the PL teams. Whether it be Carrick & Scholes, Giggs & Fletcher, Anderson & Carrick, Fletcher & Anderson, Hargreaves & Giggs, it doesn't really matter. They will beat most other team's midfields.
I'm going to explain this to you in simple language. Against the better midfields, you need to get the ball off them. They will not give the ball away as much as the mediocre run of the mill PL midfields. Therefore, you need someone to win the ball back. As Carrick and Scholes showed in those seasons when playing such a midfield, they generally did not win those battles. As a result, Hargreaves was brought in and he made a massive difference in the 2007/08 campaign. There was someone to win the ball. If Carrick and Scholes came up now against Barcelona, they would be demolished, just as Carrick, Giggs and Anderson were in the final. I guarantee you, had Fletcher or Hargreaves been playing instead of one of those three, any of those three, there would have been a huge difference. Teams like Barcelona, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal aren't going to pass you the ball back like the likes of Wigan and Portsmouth would. You need to win that ball back. The best midfields in the world all have someone who can do this.
Best player on the park regardless.
No he wasn't, his passing was no where near a match for Carrick and he didn't cover as much ground
Shouldn't a player who's more then a grafter be doing things against the weaker sides? As I've said elsewhere Fletcher gets praised for graft and nothing else
We defended very well without Fletcher, Hargreaves was right back.
It worked well but it wasn't our biggest strength. Our defence being rock solid, the amount of possession and more importantly how high we could hold it up the pitch was our biggest strength, countering when for the majority of matches we sit in the oppositions half is a rare thing
4 goals (non in this calendar year) and 2 assists for Fletcher, 4 and 11 for Carrick, no contest as to who was the better midfielder last season
Hargreaves barely played in midfield and was soon shunted to the wing, massive difference indeed
They won't listen now - but they will when without Ronaldo your midfield have to pick up the slack.
They played together a fair bit in 07/08 when both Carrick and Scholes were injured. The problem is that it's basically a purely destructive midfield. It ensured that the opposition weren't able to create anything in the middle of the park, but it stopped us from doing it as well. So it came down to moments of individual brilliance from other players, and invariable we came out on top. But it's not something that would be consistent.
Together they have done nothing but dictate games against the best opposition (albeit normally with Giggs or Anderson playing slightly ahead of them in a 4231). They've demolished Arsenal three times, dominated Inter and annihilated Roma, not to mention tearing apart a number of lesser teams (Newcastle in 06/07 springs to mind). From my recollection we've played 'big' opposition with that combination 5 times, and we've completely blown the opposition away all 5 times.
06/07 was the only season where Carrick and Scholes were our regular pairing. 07/08 there was massive rotation, although maybe that combo was used slightly more than any other. Then last season there was once again a huge amount of rotation, with Carrick/Fletcher probably being slightly ahead of any other.
Carrick's not been heavily rotated during his time at United. His partner has been over the last two seasons but he has been a consistent fixture in the side.
He has been first choice for United for the majority of the last three years and has only been out of the side for a prolonged period when injured. The only reason Hargreaves and Anderson had a decent run in the side together at the beginning of 07/08 was because Carrick was out for six/eight weeks and took a while to get his form and fitness back. Once he was fit he was the main starting midfielder during 07/08, like he was last season in 08/09. Just take a look at the starting eleven for our biggest games in 07/08 and 08/09 when he was available for all the proof you need of this.
12 months ago I would have pretty much agreed with you. What I can't understand is why you seem incapable of seeing the huge amount of improvement that Fletcher made last season.
He's not a 'fantastic' passer, but he is somewhat Keane-like in that while most of the passes he makes are easy passes, they are also the right ones to make. He doesn't push passes that aren't on, he keeps it simple. But just because they are simple doesn't mean they aren't effective (the Scholes/Carrick combo in 06/07 was a prime example of constantly playing simple effective passes). He has fantastic positioning when the opposition have the ball, blocking them off from playing the ball forward. He also has fantastic positioning when we have the ball, always available to receive the easy pass and keep the play flowing.
Fletcher has always been a big-game player, largely because his game was based on harrying and stopping the opposition from playing. But he was kind of pointless against smaller opposition as he wasn't good enough when we had the ball. Last season that changed, so now he is more than capable of playing against the lesser teams as well, whether that's next to Carrick (which can be a little too defensive on the odd occasion) or next to Giggs, Scholes or Anderson.
Ah yes, I have no doubt that Carrick was our one fairly constant over the last two seasons. I was focusing more on consistent 'partnerships', which we haven't really had in 07/08 and 08/09. It's tended to be Carrick and A.N.Other.
None of them has played infront of the world's best center back partnership with a world class keeper in goal, nor behind best player in the world infront of them alongside Rooney.
I did say mostly Scholes for a reason
Right now I find centre midfield the least convincing part of our team, whichever 2 you pick from Fletcher, Scholes, Carrick, Hargreaves, Anderson, Giggs, Gibson. Hopefully, Anderson and Hargreaves will show us more this season.
Keano did more then pick the right pass. His range was not long but he could hit penetrative passes, Fletcher can't, it's the crucial difference between a player that can and can't pass.
I hate the idea that graft suddenly makes Fletcher a better player against good teams. Graft is something we get from most our players, Anderson got praised to the rafters for his work rate against Arsenal when he first broke into the side but it was forgotten by the Champions League final because he has more to his game. Fletcher is known for work rate, as long as he puts in a shift against a good team he'll have performed well because he'll have met expectations, he cannot fail. You can work hard against any team, playing with the ball however is not easy against anyone.
Disagree absolutely
It's a pretty simple fact that graft is more useful against the better teams, and Fletcher's got twice as much graft as any of our midfielders.
You can't get away with two Carrick's in midfield, you need some graft.
You can't get away with two Carrick's in midfield, you need some graft.
Carrick covers as much ground as Fletcher
I realise that. He doesn't have as much graft as him though.
Running a round a bit doesn't constitute graft, it's more than that and you're being deliberately obtuse because you know that.
Running a round a bit doesn't constitute graft, it's more than that and you're being deliberately obtuse because you know that.
What is graft? All I see from Fletcher as Mozza suggests is a lot of running around, much less in the way of tackling and passing.
Our central mid field is our weakest area this season imo.