Charlottesville

Nogbadthebad said:
But, there is definitely an increased risk of hassle at the border and rising tensions in the country. Meanwhile, there are plenty of other countries with plenty to see and do and none of the drawbacks of trumps America. Personally I am glad I no longer travel regularly work wise, because I really don;t want to visit the US at this moment in time.

TSA are a concern simply because its just a load of hassle, but personally, my tipping point was saturday when the armed militia rolled up. I have always made a point of avoiding places where armed militia roam the streets, Rwanda at one point (I was due to go see the Gorillas), US right now. You perhaps don;t appreciate just what that looks to someone outside of the US and its gun culture. For me it made Charlottesville look like somalia.
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There are no extra hassles in obtaining a tourist visa for most countries. TSA is nuisance as usual, but nothing more than I experienced in other airports across the world.

And using Charlottesville as a pilot case is just wrong. No tourist comes to US has Virginia in his itinerary. You can practically cover most of US without seeing militia on the streets. From a tourism/travel standpoint, Trump and Charlottesville are practically immaterial.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Ofc. Unless there are security concerns, I find linking travel to politics a bit weird.
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Depends on the definition of "security concern". I wouldn't like to visit the mountains of Hadhramaut at the moment due to the nation being carpet bombed but I'd give Afghanistan or Iran a go, I'd still be apprehensive due to the scare stories but then I'd also be apprehensive of the US due to the scare stories.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
There are no extra hassles in obtaining a tourist visa for most countries. TSA is nuisance as usual, but nothing more than I experienced in other airports across the world.

And using Charlottesville as a pilot case is just wrong. No tourist comes to US has Virginia in his itinerary. You can practically cover most of US without seeing militia on the streets. From a tourism/travel standpoint, Trump and Charlottesville are practically immaterial.
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You are missing the point there.

It doesn't matter that I can possible, maybe, go a whole fortnight without seeing armed militia, the reality is that there are plenty of countries I can go to and know for certain I won't see any, nor deal with the TSA, random protests in NY or any of the other crap that comes with a visit to the US today.

And I doubt I am alone in thinking that.
 
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:lol:
 
vi1lain said:
I think at this point in time, multiculturalism is just going to naturally occur over time, especially in the larger countries.
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Given that there seems to be pretty strong correlation between the wealth of a country and it's birthrate (that being, people in richer countries tend to have less kids than those in poorer ones), you're most likely right. People from poor countries will always want to move to more prosperous ones, and the governments of said prosperous countries will likely be inclined to facilitate this to increase the tax base, given the falling birthrate etc.

I'm just saying it seems a large, unnecessary leap to say that anyone who would have misgivings about this is a racist.
 
RedTiger said:
Depends on the definition of "security concern". I wouldn't like to visit the mountains of Hadhramaut at the moment due to the nation being carpet bombed but I'd give Afghanistan or Iran a go, I'd still be apprehensive due to the scare stories but then I'd also be apprehensive of the US due to the scare stories.
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You are putting US in the same level as Afghanistan? :wenger: OK, never mind me. Carry on.

Nogbadthebad said:
You are missing the point there.

It doesn't matter that I can possible, maybe, go a whole fortnight without seeing armed militia, the reality is that there are plenty of countries I can go to and know for certain I won't see any, nor deal with the TSA, random protests in NY or any of the other crap that comes with a visit to the US today.

And I doubt I am alone in thinking that.
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I do understand your point, but I think it was a bit ott reaction. Ofc, it depends on person to person. People were warning me to not to go to UK after reading the attacks on immigrants post brexit. I find this similarly absurd.
 
vi1lain said:
I think you're rather ironically lumping together 'Antifa' to mean anyone who protests Nazis & and the alt-right.
Not all of these protesters set out with the intention of violence like Antifa, in fact I would argue - looking at pictures & videos - that most of these protesters aren't Antifa actually.

And when it comes to violence - do I encourage people to punch Nazis in the face? Nope, but if someone does it i'm not going to feel sorry for the Nazi in question, and I would hope it knocks sense into them.
On the same topic, when it comes to Antifa setting cars alight and destroying property - that only gives fuel to those on the other side of the political spectrum to call them thugs - so again I actively don't encourage, applaud or condone anything that antifa does, and I don't need any favours from you - thanks.

Are there any statistics that highlight the destruction that antifa causes?
It could be my ignorance, but I haven't seen evidence of their violence in the US being comparable to the violence to white supremacists, but I could be wrong on that.
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I think you're doing the exact same thing you did all Sunday and trying to distort what's actually been said. Par for the course by this point.

On the second point, no, because I'm not a cretin, and I can actually use my eyes to observe their contribution in ramping up the tensions. The criticism is about their actions of late, and you're asking for statistics to prove that they've been contributing to the tensions? No, you're not, are you? You're asking for statistics about their overall contribution to violence in America. The question itself is another (incredibly tiresome) attempt to make the debate about something it never was, as you're once again implying something was said that actually wasn't. Try again.
 
Fener1907 said:
On the second point, no, because I'm not a cretin, and I can actually use my eyes to observe their contribution in ramping up the tensions.
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You have something against exposing and fighting racism? In a different time, I guess you'd be one of those people who would accuse civil rights activists for stirring up trouble, and lynching mobs just a reaction to them.
 
Been to America many times (NY mostly but other places, too) and i have to say my interactions with people have been overwhelmingly positive. I found the vast majority of people to be very helpful and friendly - if occasionally brash.

I met a few morons during some of my visits to New York, but that's certainly not unique to America. It's also an amazing country that i would recommend to anyone, and would implore them not to be put off by some of these incidents that you see in the news.
 
Stocar said:
You have something against exposing and fighting racism? In a different time, I guess you'd be one of those people who would accuse civil rights activists for stirring up trouble, and lynching mobs just a reaction to them.
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I guess you're one of those people who comes in at the end of a 'debate' and presumes to know what exactly it is that the person has said, otherwise you wouldn't ask such a simplistic question.
 
Fener1907 said:
I think you're doing the exact same thing you did all Sunday and trying to distort what's actually been said. Par for the course by this point.

On the second point, no, because I'm not a cretin, and I can actually use my eyes to observe their contribution in ramping up the tensions. The criticism is about their actions of late, and you're asking for statistics to prove that they've been contributing to the tensions? No, you're not, are you? You're asking for statistics about their overall contribution to violence in America. The question itself is another (incredibly tiresome) attempt to make the debate about something it never was, as you're once again implying something was said that actually wasn't. Try again.
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Nope because I've looked at the pictures & videos available and I can't point to a large antifa presence at Charlottesville, not larger than the Nazi's or the ones protesting the Nazi's and not claiming any affiliation to Antifa.
So I simply asked if Antifa's presence in this particular situation is large then where is it? Otherwise you are just lumping all of the protesters together also aren't you?

I don't see how it's tiresome though surely, if you're using your eyes to observe their contribution - then you are implying that they are becoming an increasing force in violence right? So where are the facts that back this up?
I'm not trying to make this about something it wasn't, this is an extension of the debate because I'm curious about the level of their violence.
 
berbatrick said:
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Watching them pull it down, for a few moments there I thought they might drop it on one of their fellow protesters. Thankfully, they got it down with no injuries.

But part of me does not like the destruction of property, though this one was already slated to be removed.

I guess we can get into all sorts of side discussions about when is it okay to destroy a monument, piece of art, etc and when isn't it. But in all seriousness, feck the Nazi's.
 
JustAFan said:
Watching them pull it down, for a few moments there I thought they might drop it on one of their fellow protesters. Thankfully, they got it down with no injuries.

But part of me does not like the destruction of property, though this one was already slated to be removed.

I guess we can get into all sorts of side discussions about when is it okay to destroy a monument, piece of art, etc and when isn't it. But in all seriousness, feck the Nazi's.
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I lost all sympathy for the opposing argument after I learnt about this:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/charlottesville.431490/page-17#post-21341082

There was literally no other way to remove it.
 
vi1lain said:
Nope because I've looked at the pictures & videos available and I can't point to a large antifa presence at Charlottesville, not larger than the Nazi's or the ones protesting the Nazi's and not claiming any affiliation to Antifa.
So I simply asked if Antifa's presence in this particular situation is large then where is it? Otherwise you are just lumping all of the protesters together also aren't you?

I don't see how it's tiresome though surely, if you're using your eyes to observe their contribution - then you are implying that they are becoming an increasing force in violence right? So where are the facts that back this up?
I'm not trying to make this about something it wasn't, this is an extension of the debate because I'm curious about the level of their violence.
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And you're back to arguing with yourself again. Now Antifa have been accused of having a presence in Charlottesville and being at the front of it all. Do you know why you can't find any pics or videos? Because you're looking into an accusation that you made yourself. Show where that was said. Come on, otherwise you just look like you're once again guilty of being a bit lacking in reading comprehension.

Your second point is pretty stupid for reasons already explained - if you're struggling to comprehend it, I'll try to simplify it further. Antifa have been accused of "ramping it up of late." In other words, they have a presence and they're engaging in increasingly hostile behaviour. Now, what statistics exactly are you looking for to substantiate that accusation? The answer is, you're not, because those kind of things don't exist. You're instead asking a deliberately misleading question to make the original, very simple accusation about Antifa seem irrational. It wouldn't be an irrational request if I'd accused them of being violent throughout their history. However, you're trying to complicate a very simple point. Once again, par for the course.
 
Stocar said:
You have something against exposing and fighting racism? In a different time, I guess you'd be one of those people who would accuse civil rights activists for stirring up trouble, and lynching mobs just a reaction to them.
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The point Fener, Kostur and myself have been trying to put forth, is that as noble as the intentions of anti-facist movements may have been in previous incarnations, they've been acting anything but nobly as of late. This is something that is at the very least worth mentioning in this particular discussion.
 
Fener1907 said:
And you're back to arguing with yourself again. Now Antifa have been accused of having a presence in Charlottesville and being at the front of it all. Do you know why you can't find any pics or videos? Because you're looking into an accusation that you made yourself. Show where that was said. Come on, otherwise you just look like you're once again guilty of being a bit lacking in reading comprehension.

Your second point is pretty stupid for reasons already explained - if you're struggling to comprehend it, I'll try to simplify it further. Antifa have been accused of "ramping it up of late." In other words, they have a presence and they're engaging in increasingly hostile behaviour. Now, what statistics exactly are you looking for to substantiate that accusation? The answer is, you're not, because those kind of things don't exist. You're instead asking a deliberately misleading question to make the original, very simple accusation about Antifa seem irrational. It wouldn't be an irrational request if I'd accused them of being violent throughout their history. However, you're trying to complicate a very simple point. Once again, par for the course.
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Ok buddy.
 
soap said:
The point Fener, Kostur and myself have been trying to put forth, is that as noble as the intentions of anti-facist movements may have been in previous incarnations, they've been acting anything but nobly as of late. This is something that is at the very least worth mentioning in this particular discussion.
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I have very limited knowledge of everything they've done and been accused of, but this has been corroborated:

The professor, theologian, and activist Cornel West said that only militant leftist gangs had avoided worse bloodshed. “The police didn’t do anything in terms of protecting the people of the community, the clergy,” he told The Washington Post. “If it hadn’t been for the anti-fascists protecting us from the neo-fascists, we would have been crushed like cockroaches.”
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He was speaking at a church alongwith other leaders, the night before the huge counter-demonstrations and murder.

Of course, one action =/= an entire "group" (which is not really defined), and I'm sure there are many kids looking to be violent within it. But the evacuation of that church they carried out was a good thing.
 
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berbatrick said:
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TTGCGAGTGAGCGCCGGCGCCGCCGAGGCGCTCGCCCGCCGGATTCAGGACCGCGGCGCG
GAACTCGCGATAGACGCCGCCGACCGGGCGACGGCGGACGGTCGCAAGACGTTGATGGCC
GAGGACTTCGGCGTTCAACAGGTCGTCGACCGCGACGAACTCTCCCTCCCTATCGCCCCC
ATCGACCGCATCGCCCGCCTCCGAATCGACGACCGCTACCGCGTCGCGATGGACGCTCGA
ATCGCCCTGGCCGATATCCTCGAAGACTACGCCGTCAACGTGGCGGACGCCGCCGTCAAA
CTCGCCCACCACGCCGACCGGCGGACGGTCCAATCCGAGGACATCGAGACCTACTTCTCC
CTCTTCGAATAAery
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Sorry for interrupting, but that's the strangest 'v' I've ever seen.
 
vi1lain said:
Ok buddy.
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Okay pal.

soap said:
The point Fener, Kostur and myself have been trying to put forth, is that as noble as the intentions of anti-facist movements may have been in previous incarnations, they've been acting anything but nobly as of late. This is something that is at the very least worth mentioning in this particular discussion.
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Exactly. It's an incredibly simple point that has been made out to be something else altogether. I was even accused of being something who'd have been against the civil rights movement. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
 
vi1lain said:
Ok buddy.
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Okay pal.

soap said:
The point Fener, Kostur and myself have been trying to put forth, is that as noble as the intentions of anti-facist movements may have been in previous incarnations, they've been acting anything but nobly as of late. This is something that is at the very least worth mentioning in this particular discussion.
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Exactly. It's an incredibly simple point that has been made out to be something else altogether. I was even accused of being somebody who'd have been against the civil rights movement. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
 
berbatrick said:
“Barack Obama is to blame”: 13 Alabama conservatives on Charlottesville
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/15/16148144/alabama-conservatives-on-charlottesville

An article by someone who's been following chan culture for about a decade - I'm surprised she's so confident:
https://thebaffler.com/latest/goodbye-pepe
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At the end of this article I told myself that it was a little bit like a part of the far left in Europe. The violence in the 70s-80s isolated them, they are still around in underground societies but most people stay well clear of them.
 
soap said:
The point Fener, Kostur and myself have been trying to put forth, is that as noble as the intentions of anti-facist movements may have been in previous incarnations, they've been acting anything but nobly as of late. This is something that is at the very least worth mentioning in this particular discussion.
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Oh, I know your 'point'. Good old bothsideism and scapegoating handful of progressives who actually do something to make society more humane. If anything, today's antifascists are really peaceful and timid compared to those of the past. Don't honestly know if this is good or bad. They still get called dangerous commies from people like you, so I guess some things never change.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
You are missing the point there.

It doesn't matter that I can possible, maybe, go a whole fortnight without seeing armed militia, the reality is that there are plenty of countries I can go to and know for certain I won't see any, nor deal with the TSA, random protests in NY or any of the other crap that comes with a visit to the US today.

And I doubt I am alone in thinking that.
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You're not.
 
Fener1907 said:
Exactly. It's an incredibly simple point that has been made out to be something else altogether. I was even accused of being somebody who'd have been against the civil rights movement. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
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Maybe if you stop trying to defend the poor nazis then people might stop questioning your motives? Just a thought.
 
Guys, could someone tell me about what was said today? George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slave owners throughout their lives. And robert lee opposed slavery according to historians. He favoured the migration of African Americans to Liberia. And George Washington must have supported slavery since he owned slaves throughout his life. So Lee has an unfavourable reputation just because he waged war against the union and because he fought for the confederates, which wanted slavery to continue? Sorry, I don't know much about US history.
 
RedTiger said:

The leader at the beginning is very passionate about his beliefs but it's still pretty hard to watch.
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Holy fcuking shit. Did I miss the warning about the car crash video being in there? (11 minutes if you want to avoid it)

Shocking video as a whole. Thanks for posting.

(Also, going to hell for saying it but the girl absolutely looks like sid the sloth)
 
Nikhil said:
Guys, could someone tell me about what was said today? George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slave owners throughout their lives. And robert lee opposed slavery according to historians. He favoured the migration of African Americans to Liberia. And George Washington must have supported slavery since he owned slaves throughout his life. So Lee has an unfavourable reputation just because he waged war against the union and because he fought for the confederates, which wanted slavery to continue? Sorry, I don't know much about US history.
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It's not entirely about the people who are memorialized in statues and other symbols (because I agree, there are a lot of inconsistencies going down that trail). Yes, Washington and Jefferson owned slaves, and were not kind slave masters (as if that earns you any credit). I think a better comparison would be Andrew Jackson, an odious cnut even by 1820 standards who didn't care much about black people or Indians. I'm not a fan of the "traitor" argument either. What's the difference between Washington and Lee to a slave in 1823? (cf the Dave Chappelle bit).

Virtually any statue of Washington or Jefferson was erected, honoring their role in forging a new nation devoted to liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all. "All" back in their day meant white landowners. We've since expanded the meaning of the word to include more and more people, but they were trailblazers and are honored as such, still keeping in mind their imperfections.

Confederate statues were mostly erected around the turn of the 20th century, a period described as the nadir of race relations, where the gains made by black people after the end of slavery drowned in a sea of harassment, exclusion and lynchings. The statues were erected and dedicated, not as regretful sorrowful tributes to fallen Confederate soldiers, but prideful and hateful symbols of white supremacy. In basic terms, the notion was, "we lost the battle, but the cause which we fought for has triumphed". The likes of Lee, Jefferson Davis, Stonewall Jackson were held up as pious and devout crusaders fighting against a vengeful North who "took our way of life".

The second wave of Confederate statues was built around the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement, as a spit in the face of uppity negroes who refused to know their place and accept the natural order of things, aka Segregation. The flag most people associate with the Confederacy today became very popular around that time, and it was used at anti-civil right rallies. These symbols and flags and statues were rallying points for people who hated the idea of equality.

So drawing parallels between statues of Washington and Lee is flawed. The day that white nationalists rally around a statue of Washington then this conversation can be restarted.
 
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Stocar said:
Oh, I know your 'point'. Good old bothsideism and scapegoating handful of progressives who actually do something to make society more humane. If anything, today's antifascists are really peaceful and timid compared to those of the past. Don't honestly know if this is good or bad. They still get called dangerous commies from people like you, so I guess some things never change.
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By showing up to pro-Trump events pepper spraying people and throwing bricks into crowds :lol:

Maybe in your eyes each of the 60-odd million people who voted for Trump are Nazi, and they'd better shut their mouths if they support him or they can expect to be attacked with weapons. But oh - let's not forget their repeated attacks on police officers too. Probably fascists too, right? I'm sure their penchant for destroying private property while terrifying ordinary members of the public is really "making society more humane". These people are not progressives.

Perhaps I should have been clearer that I don't think the average AntiFa person is as bad as a neo-Nazi. That's hardly high fecking praise though, is it? When even the staunchly left wing alternative news outlet The Young Turks are saying AntiFa are driving them nuts and making the situation worse, perhaps you should think twice before making snide implications about posters who criticise this organisation.
 
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