Charlottesville

[Stocar]

Yes, I am perfectly aware that people like you will always harp on about imaginary evil commies, regardless of what happened. Don't bother replying.

 

[soap]

Yes, I am perfectly aware that people like you will always harp on about imaginary evil commies, regardless of what happened. Don't bother replying.

What exactly am I imagining here? Have antifa not actually done any of the things I've accused them of?

Not replying is probably good advice, because you have once again said the square root of absolutely nothing and appear to be arguing against things no one has actually said and completely incapable of addressing actual posts.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

Did the counter-protests give the Neo Nazis what they wanted? Someone to fight with? Would ignoring them and not giving them any attention been a better way to deal with them?

I'm not sure if that's even possible, ie if they were violently harrassing people.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Just to remind you all.

Nazism is not some benign belief that will stay as nothing if ignored, it is a destructive, dangerous and violent outlook. It has only ever ended in bloodshed. It always will. There is no equivalence between nazis and anything else.

And lets be clear on two things. They want you to call them alt-right because the real word is fascists.

They want you to call the counter protests antifa because the real words are anti fascists.

They are fascists. Those opposing them are anti fascists. There is only one right side. It is not the nazis.

 

[JPRouve]

Just to remind you all.

Nazism is not some benign belief that will stay as nothing if ignored, it is a destructive, dangerous and violent outlook. It has only ever ended in bloodshed. It always will. There is no equivalence between nazis and anything else.

And lets be clear on two things. They want you to call them alt-right because the real word is fascists.

They want you to call the counter protests antifa because the real words are anti fascists.

They are fascists. Those opposing them are anti fascists. There is only one right side. It is not the nazis.

And fascist are on both sides of the spectrum, far right and far left. Which If I'm not mistaken was @Kostur's initial point, a general point not limited to this weekend's events.

 

[Redlambs]

I get the point that we have to fight against the rise of the alt-right/nazis/whatever you want to call them, but I am a little unnerved by how so many are prepared to make excuses for violence being the direct answer.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

Just to remind you all.

Nazism is not some benign belief that will stay as nothing if ignored, it is a destructive, dangerous and violent outlook. It has only ever ended in bloodshed. It always will. There is no equivalence between nazis and anything else.

And lets be clear on two things. They want you to call them alt-right because the real word is fascists.

They want you to call the counter protests antifa because the real words are anti fascists.

They are fascists. Those opposing them are anti fascists. There is only one right side. It is not the nazis.

That doesn't mean commiting crimes in the name of 'anti fascism' is right, it isn't and when you do so you lose your moral highground and worse legitimise those that you're protesting against.

 

[villain]

So what solutions do people have to the Nazi's aside from saying people should stop punching them?

 

[onemanarmy]

So what solutions do people have to the Nazi's aside from saying people should stop punching them?

Education. But it's too late for that probably.

 

[Redlambs]

So what solutions do people have to the Nazi's aside from saying people should stop punching them?

Who says anyone has the answers? But I dunno, maybe doing a better coordinated effort to keep trump out in the first place? Education?

I'd say the first step is probably not becoming like them though. Committing a violent crime is just the same if you are extreme left as extreme right. There's no moral high ground there.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

So what solutions do people have to the Nazi's aside from saying people should stop punching them?

It's a symptom of poverty. America has some of the highest poverty rates in the Western world and has the worst social mobility levels of any Western nation. They don't have any hope and make the deduction that the rise of other races in society is their biggest threat.

I don't see how America can offer them hope, in fact I would bet that it will get worse in coming years with the rise of automation taking more and more low skilled jobs.

 

[2mufc0]

I get the point that we have to fight against the rise of the alt-right/nazis/whatever you want to call them, but I am a little unnerved by how so many are prepared to make excuses for violence being the direct answer.

Good point.

I haven't read to much into the incidents, but which side instigated the fighting?

 

[Smores]

I get the point that we have to fight against the rise of the alt-right/nazis/whatever you want to call them, but I am a little unnerved by how so many are prepared to make excuses for violence being the direct answer.

Violence is never the answer (except if its against those i dislike)

You always get the anarchist types who turn up to these events who just want a brawl, they latch on to most causes. What's happened in recent years in the UK and other EU countries is more of the general public have turned up to peacefully protest, its great to see and what should happen, show them they're a minority and they don't speak for the rest of us.

 

[JPRouve]

So what solutions do people have to the Nazi's aside from saying people should stop punching them?

It depends on who we are talking about. The racists and xenophobes that advocate violence should be prosecuted for conspiracy to commit a crime while the others should be educated and reeducated. The reality though is that humans are inherently racist and xenophobe, fearful of the stranger and prone to blame the outsider.

 

[Redlambs]

Good point.

I haven't read to much into the incidents, but which side instigated the fighting?

I'm trying to catch up fully myself, but if I had to guess I'd obviously say the right. However my point isn't about self defence, that's not what's being discussed here. It's about fighting fire with fire and how quick people seem to want to justify resorting to violence to get their way.

Violence is never the answer (except if its against those i dislike)

You always get the anarchist types who turn up to these events who just want a brawl, they latch on to most causes. What's happened in recent years in the UK and other EU countries is more of the general public have turned up to peacefully protest, its great to see and what should happen, show them they're a minority and they don't speak for the rest of us.

The solution then is to look for those causing the violence and make sure they are taken out of the equation. I know, I know, it's easy to say and harder to do, but in this day and age we should be able to at least make strides in that area and show that violence and rioting is not the answer.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

That doesn't mean commiting crimes in the name of 'anti fascism' is right, it isn't and when you do so you lose your moral highground and worse legitimise those that you're protesting against.

Again, we are discussing an ideology that is rooted in violence here. Nazis are not turning up just to shout, they come armed with weapons, shields and body armour. When nazis gather, violence is inevitable because it is their raison d'être.

That does not mean we should ignore those who also turn up just for the fight, but the vast majority of people opposing these gatherings are just people, not violent thugs. On the evening before where the tiki torch pictures are taken, there are just a few protestors. They were college students, and you may have missed them, they are in the middle of the circle of fascists, surrounded and being threatened. Lumping them in with 'antifa' violence only helps justify the far right.

By suggesting both sides are equal in their desire for violence, you are playing into the hands of the fascists. Like trump did yesterday, quite deliberately, false equivalence is their way of absolving themselves of responsibility.

 

[2mufc0]

I'm trying to catch up fully myself, but if I had to guess I'd obviously say the right. However my point isn't about self defence, that's not what's being discussed here. It's about fighting fire with fire and how quick people seem to want to justify resorting to violence to get their way.

Yeah i agree with your point.

Problem with these Nazi's they are violent and nasty so violence is very likely with those types around, peaceful opposition protest needs to happen imo but the police need to step up and keep them separated.

 

[711]

So what solutions do people have to the Nazi's aside from saying people should stop punching them?

If it's simply a case of who can punch the hardest or which faction has the money and will to deploy the most expensive weapons then the US is on it's way to being a failed state, and no one will be happy with the result.

The answer is the rule of law through democratic government. That doesn't always give instant solutions but if you go down any other route you're part of the problem.

 

[JustAFan]

So what solutions do people have to the Nazi's aside from saying people should stop punching them?

Well here is the thing, you see some Nazi's protesting,so you walk over and start punching them. All you are doing is giving them ammo to spread about how they were just protesting and they were attacked.

It will just lead to ever increasing violence.

Peaceful protests are how you have to go. Keep working to improve things. Educate. Vote. Being better people athen they are.

A violent, bloody, civil war is best avoided.

But willalso add, that self-defense is of course ok.

 

[villain]

Education. But it's too late for that probably.

Who says anyone has the answers? But I dunno, maybe doing a better coordinated effort to keep trump out in the first place? Education?

I'd say the first step is probably not becoming like them though. Committing a violent crime is just the same if you are extreme left as extreme right. There's no moral high ground there.

It's a symptom of poverty. America has some of the highest poverty rates in the Western world and has the worst social mobility levels of any Western nation. They don't have any hope and make the deduction that the rise of other races in society is their biggest threat.

I don't see how America can offer them hope, in fact I would bet that it will get worse in coming years with the rise of automation taking more and more low skilled jobs.

It depends on who we are talking about. The racists and xenophobes that advocate violence should be prosecuted for conspiracy to commit a crime while the others should be educated and reeducated. The reality though is that humans are inherently racist and xenophobe, fearful of the stranger and prone to blame the outsider.

If it's simply a case of who can punch the hardest or which faction has the money and will to deploy the most expensive weapons then the US is on it's way to being a failed state, and no one will be happy with the result.

The answer is the rule of law through democratic government. That doesn't always give instant solutions but if you go down any other route you're part of the problem.

Well here is the thing, you see some Nazi's protesting,so you walk over and start punching them. All you are doing is giving them ammo to spread about how they were just protesting and they were attacked.

It will just lead to ever increasing violence.

Peaceful protests are how you have to go. Keep working to improve things. Educate. Vote. Being better people then they are.

A violent, bloody, civil war is best avoided.

Education seems to be the common theme here, but exactly how do we educate these grown men & women to change their hatred?
I'm sure they know that they are racist, and the views they hold are abhorrent so they won't be learning anything new, if we tell them that.

 

[Rams]

Are there enough neo-Nazi’s in the US to start a civil war?

 

[SteveJ]

The reality though is that humans are inherently racist and xenophobe, fearful of the stranger and prone to blame the outsider.

Not sure about that, mate, no matter what the likes of Darwin, Freud and others implied - hatred of 'the other' has been promoted via political expediency for so long that the stated inherency is mistaken for a given.

 

[Redlambs]

Education seems to be the common theme here, but exactly how do we educate these grown men & women to change their hatred?
I'm sure they know that they are racist, and the views they hold are abhorrent so they won't be learning anything new, if we tell them that.

Do you think all these guys were born racist?

 

[villain]

Do you think all these guys were born racist?

That's not what I asked, of course they weren't born racist.

Let me put it into perspective for you, back in University I was dating a guy who's brother was openly racist - I took it upon myself to educate him.
My ex and I broke up on good terms, and kept in contact, and I kept trying to educate & change his brother's mindset.
It wasn't until about a year ago that he finally came around and changed his ways - that took well over 6 years for me, his brother and our friends to do it.

Since then, I'm personally tired - I know it's possible because I've convinced many white folks, but it's not some quick task and there's no guarantee that all or even most will change their ways.

 

[Sweet Square]

Are there enough neo-Nazi’s in the US to start a civil war?

No. Also it must be said that the most popular politician in the US is a jewish socialist.

 

[Rado_N]

I don't like how there seems to be a train of thought amongst some that if you don't support violence towards the Nazis you're somehow some kind of sympathiser.

 

[Randall Flagg]

Education seems to be the common theme here, but exactly how do we educate these grown men & women to change their hatred?
I'm sure they know that they are racist, and the views they hold are abhorrent so they won't be learning anything new, if we tell them that.

agreed


They know exactly what’s going on and this is how they really feel. And you can tell these people are educated and not dumb red necks

It’s frightening how many of them have seemingly come out of the woodwork in recent months. Either I wasn’t looking or its far more noticeable how toxic social media has become

 

[villain]

agreed


They know exactly what’s going on and this is how they really feel. And you can tell these people are educated and not dumb red necks

It’s frightening how many of them have seemingly come out of the woodwork in recent months. Either I wasn’t looking or its far more noticeable how toxic social media has become

I'm not surprised by the number of them, just the sheer audacity of them.
I mean, they are outwardly doing Nazi salutes without fear of covering their faces, in 2017, we were meant to have flying cars not Nazis.

They have no shame, no morals and no fear.

 

[Redlambs]

That's not what I asked, of course they weren't born racist.

Hence the point, they learned it somewhere. Countering that is and always has been the key. Anti-Racism has made great strides over the years, it's coming back to the fore thanks not to the alt-right/nazis punching more people, but due to them finding more and more ways of sharing their bile with people.

agreed


They know exactly what’s going on and this is how they really feel. And you can tell these people are educated and not dumb red necks

It’s frightening how many of them have seemingly come out of the woodwork in recent months. Either I wasn’t looking or its far more noticeable how toxic social media has become

So what about the future, are you just going to keep punching people forever?

I'm not surprised by the number of them, just the sheer audacity of them.
I mean, they are outwardly doing Nazi salutes without fear of covering their faces, in 2017, we were meant to have flying cars not Nazis.

This I agree with. It's ridiculous that in 2017 America these guys are allowed to get away with it.

 

[adexkola]

No one is saying that if you see a Nazi, you go up and punch them.

It's just... If Nazis getting punched is the main issue to you in this thread, then you should reorient your priorities. That barely registers on the Richter scale, compared to more substantial matters.

 

[villain]

Hence the point, they learned it somewhere. Countering that is and always has been the key. Anti-Racism has made great strides over the years, it's coming back to the fore thanks not to the alt-right/nazis punching more people, but due to them finding more and more ways of sharing their bile with people.

Have you ever tried to talk to someone who is openly racist about race? Their views, how they feel, what led them to that place in their life etc?

 

[Mockney]

I don't like how there seems to be a train of thought amongst some that if you don't support violence towards the Nazis you're somehow some kind of sympathiser.

It's more frustrating that after a weekend which saw Nazis actually kill someone, injure countless others and split a black man's head open with bats, we've ended up talking about the very same "violence from both sides" equivalence that the likes of Trump want us to.

 

[onemanarmy]

This I agree with. It's ridiculous that in 2017 America these guys are allowed to get away with it.

I don't know American law, but we have laws against "Negationists". People who deny the Holocaust has happened and are openly promoting Nazism. I think it's the only exception on freedom of speech in my country. Holocaust deniers can go to jail for simply saying it didn't happen.

 

[adexkola]

Nazis marching "peacefully"
Someone punches a Nazi
Nazis get mad, violence erupts, civil war starts
Conclusion drawn: don't punch Nazis

 

[Classical Mechanic]

@vi1lain

Education on race relations isn't going to make a great deal of difference in my opinion. What all the poor communities of America is need is greater social security and opportunity if they are to live harmoniously. If you look at the political history of America and the current climate I don't see how that is going to happen.

The BBC documented the rise of the far right in America along with a rise in Black militia when Obama was still president. God only knows what will happen if the poor communities of America are further marginialised through automation and lack of economic opportunity. They are armed to the teeth.

 

[Rams]

No one is saying that if you see a Nazi, you go up and punch them.

It's just... If Nazis getting punched is the main issue to you in this thread, then you should reorient your priorities. That barely registers on the Richter scale, compared to more substantial matters.

Well, speak for yourself. I'd gladly support anybody to walk up to a Nazi and kick their fekin heads in.

 

[Redlambs]

No one is saying that if you see a Nazi, you go up and punch them.

It's just... If Nazis getting punched is the main issue to you in this thread, then you should reorient your priorities. That barely registers on the Richter scale, compared to more substantial matters.

Likewise, is anyone saying that?

Have you ever tried to talk to someone who is openly racist about race? Their views, how they feel, what led them to that place in their life etc?

I guess on a lower level I did go around family, friends and anyone I could about brexit and why imigrants aren't the enemy. It was incredibly tough, let alone actually being black trying to reason with a real racist.

But again, that was never my point. My point in this thread was merely how it's a little unnerving to me that so many of you are openly justifying violence.

 

[Fergies Gum]

Likewise, is anyone saying that?




I guess on a lower level I did go around family, friends and anyone I could about brexit and why imigrants aren't the enemy. It was incredibly tough, let alone actually being black trying to reason with a real racist.

But again, that was never my point. My point in this thread was merely how it's a little unnerving to me that so many of you are openly justifying violence.

Its just people being keyboard warriors, who wouldn't have the bottle to attack these Nazi sympathisers themselves.

 

[Silva]

If you don't punch a Nazi you can't get into heaven.

 

[Redlambs]

Nazis marching "peacefully"
Someone punches a Nazi
Nazis get mad, violence erupts, civil war starts
Conclusion drawn: don't punch Nazis

Oh ffs. This level of childishness really is insufferable on here.