Charlottesville

[Stocar]

@Stocar why aren't you keen to elaborate on what you mean? Twice I've asked you.

Go ahead, if you claim people are hiding, let's not be hypocritical here...

There was a guy who himself said that his political views would be seen as far right on this forum, if I remember correctly. He didn't espouse them too directly, but I quickly recognize the type since I come from pretty much the same part of the world.

Admittedly, I wouldn't say there are genuine right wingers here, although I find some people in the thread to be quite politically clueless. I overreacted a bit and I apologize.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

What puzzles me is why Americans seem to accept the existence of highly armed private militias marching through their towns to intimidate people to their will. Is this allowed anywhere else?

That's what real freedom looks like in their opinion. If the government wants to oppress them some then they are ready for war.

 

[Rams]

Seems a rather pointless debate on who instigated violence on who.

The Nazi and Klansman components of that demonstration did not travel thousands of miles for just a meet up and non-physical protest. Everything about that display was intended to show that they don't just exist on internet forums, and are a very real and potentially very deadly presence. Likewise, radical leftists did not travel thousands of miles to do anything other than fight, regardless of whether they would be pitted against full blown nazis or right-leaning college kids.

Frankly it's a miracle no one was shot.

What's your definition of a radical leftist??? Why do you state that their were radical leftist at the counter demonstration? and that they traveled from 1,000's of miles to go to the demonstration? Judging from the video in the article I posted they were mostly locals, from the local University in particular.

I can't believe that in this thread we're even discussing the blame of the violence on the part of the counter demonstrators. It should be clear to anyone, who does not have far right sympathies, that the far right demonstrators are the scum of the earth.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

That's what real freedom looks like in their opinion. If the government wants to oppress them some then they are ready to die.

Fixed.

The local police force may be helpless against the presence of armed to the teeth Nazis, but those scums wont stand a chance against the US army.

Although, when you think about it, the US army itself is just as likely to politically align with them. 7 out of 10 of them voted for the Cheeto Jesus/

 

[Redlambs]

There was a guy who himself said that his political views would be seen as far right on this forum, if I remember correctly. Just didn't want to espouse them too directly, but I quickly recognize the type since I come from pretty much same part of the world.

Admittedly, I wouldn't say there are genuine right wingers here, just few politically clueless people. I overreacted a bit and I apologize.

No need to apologise to me, I'm just interested in learning. I want to know why it's ok for people to call for violence and it's ok to act like those of us who'd rather look to real solutions are part of the problem. How it's fair to accuse people who perhaps would like to protest but not violently.

And that is a genuine question btw, I posted the following the adexkola and feel like it's valid, yet no one has yet seen fit to provide me with any education on the matter:

In this particular specific context I completely agree. Do you think I wouldn't come out and fight for what's right if it came down to it? Of course I would and I'd be proud to. My point was always based on the grand scheme, the discussion after the event. So many are willing to 'crack skulls' or at least act like they would. I don't get how that is acceptable or will help stop all this in the future, that's all. Mockney said it's the false equivalence that Trump wants, I disagree, I think he wants the left to act exactly like the right so he can be proved right. A few of us saying violence isn't the long term solution means nothing to the man, it's that actions that do. That's clearly what they are looking for here, that's why they have crawled out of the woodwork. We need to make sure the future generations don't fall for this, we need to make sure we can once again make it unacceptable to have those views. Even if we can't stop it right now, surely the long term should be the plan?

 

[villain]

There's quite a gap between acknowledging that people are different, to presenting every political idea through a prism of identity and grievance hierarchy, and then a further gap to intentionally pitting identity groups against each other.

But political ideas do affect different groups differently, so it's important to highlight these grievances, right? That's...part of what politics essentially is.

In the past politics just didn't represent the marginalised groups. Ever since more minorities have been given more representation and a louder voice in politics, suddenly identity politics is pitting people against each other?

The tension has always been there, you just haven't noticed it because you weren't exposed to it.

Whenever I hear people talking about identity politics, all I hear is people not wanting to have to be included in the narrative of those who's opinions didn't matter before.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

I just read an article in the well-respected Dutch newspaper, De Volkskrant, about a report which will be aired on Dutch telly tonight and that will pour scorn on the statement that the anti-Nazi protesters instigated violence against the far right demonstrators.
According to the article the report will show a female reporter ‘befriending’ one of the neo-Nazi demonstrators at the demonstration in Charlottesville and joined their march. According to the article the pumped up & armed far right demonstrators instigated the violence with unprovoked attacks on the counter demonstrators. One example was given of a neo-Nazi hitting a long haired counter demonstrators in the back of the head with a baseball bat.


https://www.volkskrant.nl/televisie...d-is-voor-amerikaans-extreem-rechts~a4511344/

The article you linked to is just a recap/summary of that Vice documentary, in the entertainment section of the newspaper. Says nothing about a report aired on Dutch telly tonight

 

[Neutral]

At AP, we have taken the position that the term “alt-right” should be avoided because it is meant as a euphemism to disguise racist aims.

POSTED IN BEHIND THE NEWS
How to describe extremists who rallied in Charlottesville
Aug. 15, 2017, by John Daniszewski
The events in Charlottesville are an opportunity to take another look at our terminology around “alt-right” and the way that we describe the various racist, neo-Nazi, white nationalist and white supremacist groups out there.

At AP, we have taken the position that the term “alt-right” should be avoided because it is meant as a euphemism to disguise racist aims. So use it only when quoting someone or when describing what the movement says about itself. Enclose the term “alt-right” in quotation marks or use phrasing such as the so-called alt-right (no quote marks when using the term so-called) or the self-described “alt-right.”

A makeshift memorial sits in Charlottevsille, Virginia, on Aug. 13, 2017, a day after Heather Heyer died when a car rammed into a group of people who were protesting a white nationalist rally in the city. (AP Photo/Steve Helber)
Another recent area of confusion is the degree of overlap between the terms “white nationalist” and “white supremacist.” For many people the terms can be used almost interchangeably. Both terms describe groups that favor whites and support discrimination by race. There is however a subtle difference, at least in the views of the groups involved.

White nationalists say that white people are a distinct nation deserving of protection, and therefore they demand special political, legal and territorial guarantees for whites. White supremacists believe that whites are superior and therefore should dominate other races. Depending on the group and the context, AP writers are free to determine which description most aptly applies to a group or an individual in a particular situation.

Finally, a new term has emerged recently – an umbrella term for the far-left-leaning militant groups that resist neo-Nazis and white supremacists at demonstrations and other events. The movement calls itself “antifa,” short for anti-fascists, and emulates historic anti-fascist actors in Europe. Until the term becomes better known, use it in quotes at first and with a definition included the copy.

For reference, here is the guidance on this topic from the 2017 edition of the AP Stylebook:

“alt-right”
A political grouping or tendency mixing racism, white nationalism and populism; a name currently embraced by some white supremacists and white nationalists to refer to themselves and their ideology, which emphasizes preserving and protecting the white race in the United States.In AP stories discussing what the movement says about itself, the term “alt-right” (quotation marks, hyphen and lowercase) may be used in quotes or modified as in the self-described “alt-right” or so-called alt-right. Avoid using the term generically and without definition, however, because it is not well-known and the term may exist primarily as a public relations device to make its supporters’ actual beliefs less clear and more acceptable to a broader audience.
Depending on the specifics of the situation, such beliefs might be termed racist, white supremacist or neo-Nazi; be sure to describe the specifics. Whenever “alt-right” is used in a story, include a definition: an offshoot of conservatism mixing racism, white nationalism and populism, or, more simply, a white nationalist movement.When writing on extreme groups, be precise and provide evidence to support the characterization. Report their actions, associations, history and positions to reveal their actual beliefs and philosophy, as well as how others see them.Some related definitions:racism The broad term for asserting racial or ethnic discrimination or superiority based solely on race, ethnic or religious origins; it can be by any group against any other group.white nationalism A subset of racist beliefs that calls for a separate territory and/or enhanced legal rights and protections for white people. Critics accuse white nationalists of being white supremacists in disguise.white separatism A term sometimes used as a synonym for white nationalism but differs in that it advocates a form of segregation in which races would live apart but in the same general geographic area.white supremacy The racist belief that whites are superior to justify political, economic and social suppression of nonwhite people and other minority groups.neo-Nazism Combines racist and white supremacist beliefs with admiration for an authoritarian, totalitarian style of government such as the German Third Reich to enforce its beliefs.


Good step. Others need to follow.

 

[Brwned]

I know Rachel Maddow's not everyone's favourite but I thought this was a really good segment.



Had no idea the KKK were that prevalent.

 

[Nikhil]

@adexkola Thanks for the explanation. Made it much more clear. I didn't know that all these Lee and Stonewall Jackson statues were erected much more recently during turbulent times for race relations.

Segregation which continued up till the 60s was a disgrace. Can't believe not more is made of it nowadays.

 

[Bury Red]

Had no idea the KKK were that prevalent.

Prevalent but fun loving

Saw the original in the prohibition museum in Savannah Georgia a couple of months ago and knew it would be online somewhere.

 

[adexkola]

In this particular specific context I completely agree. Do you think I wouldn't come out and fight for what's right if it came down to it? Of course I would and I'd be proud to. My point was always based on the grand scheme, the discussion after the event. So many are willing to 'crack skulls' or at least act like they would. I don't get how that is acceptable or will help stop all this in the future, that's all. Mockney said it's the false equivalence that Trump wants, I disagree, I think he wants the left to act exactly like the right so he can be proved right. A few of us saying violence isn't the long term solution means nothing to the man, it's that actions that do. That's clearly what they are looking for here, that's why they have crawled out of the woodwork. We need to make sure the future generations don't fall for this, we need to make sure we can once again make it unacceptable to have those views. Even if we can't stop it right now, surely the long term should be the plan?.

I'm not questioning your readiness to fight for what is right, and that honestly never crossed my mind.

The left acts like the right here only when the left screams "blood and soil", and looks for the extermination of all white people. The left matching the violence of the right doesn't create equivalence, no matter how many times Trump may try to draw that parallel.

It comes down to the earlier post I made. If a Nazi/KKK member gets punched, the punch may be counter-productive to peace, but the peace, a social construct in which all live in harmony with each other, is already broken when a Nazi opens his mouth and vomits hateful and bigoted things, targeted towards a specific group of people. The punch is an escalation of an already started conflict. Peace being prioritized over all other factors is the privilege of those (us) who aren't in these spaces, and can sit back and calmly tut, "violence is never acceptable".

 

[Neutral]

Had no idea the KKK were that prevalent.

You have no idea and the best bit is...in terms of a political party - more Democrat officials were Klan members than Republican. And as a result solid majority of african american voters were Republican (along with the previous history of the Republican party). But, after getting nothing significant in return, they drifted to the Democrats (new Deal coalition) - tie in the civil rights era and a combination of the two led southern whites to head to the Republican party.

And that's where they've been ever since and I see no chance of that changing anytime soon.

 

[villain]

I know Rachel Maddow's not everyone's favourite but I thought this was a really good segment.



Had no idea the KKK were that prevalent.

This is stemming from a wider point I made in the Pulling down the statues thread.

I don't actually think most people really know about the history of certain countries like America - not that I blame you or anyone else who isn't aware, this isn't common knowledge and you'd have to have an active interest to really find out the gory details.

The KKK have a genuinely disgusting history, and it's a wonder that they are even allowed to still be registered as an organisation. (not really)

 

[Fergies Gum]

Poignant words by the parents at the memorial

 

[Fergies Gum]

 

[Neutral]

You know that tough guy from the Vice video - the one some in here were scared of....

‘I’m terrified’: Neo-Nazi blubbers like a baby in video reporting he’s wanted for arrest in Charlottesville

DAVID FERGUSON
16 AUG 2017 AT 12:28 ET

Christopher Cantwell discusses the warrant for his arrest (Screen capture)
DON'T MISS STORIES. FOLLOW RAW STORY!

Neo-Nazi Christopher Cantwell — who was one of the “Unite the Right” Charlottesville marchers interviewed by Vice.com — released a weepy, rambling video of himself discussing the fact that a warrant was issued for his arrest.

“I called the Charlottesville Police Department,” Cantwell said, “and said, ‘I have been told there’s a warrant out for my arrest. They said they wouldn’t confirm it but that I could find this out I could go to a magistrate or whatever.”

“With everything that’s happening, I don’t think it’s very wise for me to go anywhere,” he continued. “There’s a state of emergency, the National Guard is here!”

He kept breaking off to wipe away tears, saying, “I don’t know what to do. I need guidance.”

“Our enemies will not stop, they’ve been threatening us all over the place,” he whined before freaking out that Chelsea Manning is threatening to “curb stomp” Nazis.

“We are trying to make this peaceful, we are trying to be law abiding,” he claimed, in spite of the fact that website the Daily Stormer called for Nazis to disrupt the funeral of Heather Heyer, 32, who was killed when a Nazi marcher plowed his car into a group of anti-racist protesters.

“I’m terrified,” he said to law enforcement officers in the clip. “I think you’re going to kill me.”

Cantwell was caught on video at the march saying that he’d brought a pistol with him and that he’s been going to the gym to make himself “more ready for violence.”

He went on a colorful rant about President Donald Trump, saying, “Somebody like Donald Trump, who does not give his daughter to a Jew, I don’t think you could feel the way I do about race, and watch that Kushner bastard walk around with that beautiful girl.”
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/im-...ing-hes-wanted-for-arrest-in-charlottesville/

 

[Brwned]

You have no idea and the best bit is...in terms of a political party - more Democrat officials were Klan members than Republican. And as a result solid majority of african american voters were Republican (along with the previous history of the Republican party). But, after getting nothing significant in return, they drifted to the Democrats (new Deal coalition) - tie in the civil rights era and a combination of the two led southern whites to head to the Republican party.

And that's where they've been ever since and I see no chance of that changing anytime soon.

Yeah, that's why I'd give credit to Maddow & co. for speaking plainly about that on an openly partisan media channel.

This is stemming from a wider point I made in the Pulling down the statues thread.

I don't actually think most people really know about the history of certain countries like America - not that I blame you or anyone else who isn't aware, this isn't common knowledge and you'd have to have an active interest to really find out the gory details.

The KKK have a genuinely disgusting history, and it's a wonder that they are even allowed to still be registered as an organisation. (not really)

Definitely lots of ignorance on my side!

 

[Neutral]

Yeah, that's why I'd give credit to Maddow & co. for speaking plainly about that on an openly partisan media channel.

Nah, everyone knows this - this is common knowledge and Democrats have made peace with it. It's what Republicans always try to beat down the Democrats with. That line is taught to Republicans in Republicans and race relations 101.

But, to me - it makes the Democrats even better....A party that the KKK identified with and the white folk of the South - knew, what they were doing was political suicide....but, did it anyway. That takes guts - knowing, you are potentially losing these long time voters forever.

Now, look at someone like Trump - he has so little gumption, he can't even speak out against the modern day KKK/White supremacists - who are compared to the 40/50/60s - very much a marginalized group.

 

[JPRouve]

I'm not questioning your readiness to fight for what is right, and that honestly never crossed my mind.

The left acts like the right here only when the left screams "blood and soil", and looks for the extermination of all white people. The left matching the violence of the right doesn't create equivalence, no matter how many times Trump may try to draw that parallel.

It comes down to the earlier post I made. If a Nazi/KKK member gets punched, the punch may be counter-productive to peace, but the peace, a social construct in which all live in harmony with each other, is already broken when a Nazi opens his mouth and vomits hateful and bigoted things, targeted towards a specific group of people. The punch is an escalation of an already started conflict. Peace being prioritized over all other factors is the privilege of those (us) who aren't in these spaces, and can sit back and calmly tut, "violence is never acceptable".

But we need someone to calmly tut, "violence is never acceptable." That's why we decided a long time ago that Feuds weren't a solution. It's even truer when you look at the far right militias, no one wants a potential escalation, so someone has to act like a grown person and solely use legal ways.

And two things, I'm not suggesting that the anti fascist did something wrong and I'm not suggesting that punching a fascist isn't satisfactory, I'm just saying that we need to respect ourselves and behave better than these idiots.

 

[Eboue]

You know that tough guy from the Vice video - the one some in here were scared of....

‘I’m terrified’: Neo-Nazi blubbers like a baby in video reporting he’s wanted for arrest in Charlottesville

DAVID FERGUSON
16 AUG 2017 AT 12:28 ET

Christopher Cantwell discusses the warrant for his arrest (Screen capture)
DON'T MISS STORIES. FOLLOW RAW STORY!

Neo-Nazi Christopher Cantwell — who was one of the “Unite the Right” Charlottesville marchers interviewed by Vice.com — released a weepy, rambling video of himself discussing the fact that a warrant was issued for his arrest.

“I called the Charlottesville Police Department,” Cantwell said, “and said, ‘I have been told there’s a warrant out for my arrest. They said they wouldn’t confirm it but that I could find this out I could go to a magistrate or whatever.”

“With everything that’s happening, I don’t think it’s very wise for me to go anywhere,” he continued. “There’s a state of emergency, the National Guard is here!”

He kept breaking off to wipe away tears, saying, “I don’t know what to do. I need guidance.”

“Our enemies will not stop, they’ve been threatening us all over the place,” he whined before freaking out that Chelsea Manning is threatening to “curb stomp” Nazis.

“We are trying to make this peaceful, we are trying to be law abiding,” he claimed, in spite of the fact that website the Daily Stormer called for Nazis to disrupt the funeral of Heather Heyer, 32, who was killed when a Nazi marcher plowed his car into a group of anti-racist protesters.

“I’m terrified,” he said to law enforcement officers in the clip. “I think you’re going to kill me.”

Cantwell was caught on video at the march saying that he’d brought a pistol with him and that he’s been going to the gym to make himself “more ready for violence.”

He went on a colorful rant about President Donald Trump, saying, “Somebody like Donald Trump, who does not give his daughter to a Jew, I don’t think you could feel the way I do about race, and watch that Kushner bastard walk around with that beautiful girl.”
http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/im-...ing-hes-wanted-for-arrest-in-charlottesville/

Turns out this guy was on the colbert report a couple years ago

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/dvppp6/the-colbert-report-difference-makers---the-free-keene-squad

 

[Fener1907]

Maybe if you stop trying to defend the poor nazis then people might stop questioning your motives? Just a thought.

Maybe you should stop throwing false accusations around. Makes you look like a bit of a twat.

 

[JPRouve]

Turns out this guy was on the colbert report a couple years ago

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/dvppp6/the-colbert-report-difference-makers---the-free-keene-squad

The Keen squad, surely punching them wouldn't be fair.

 

[Neutral]

Turns out this guy was on the colbert report a couple years ago

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/dvppp6/the-colbert-report-difference-makers---the-free-keene-squad

to the ex-vet - you're a racist for serving in Iraq and droning brown babies.

Cantwell shooting the American flag at the end...Yet, Kaepernick is evil for simply taking a knee

 

[Classical Mechanic]

What does everyone think would have happened to this far right march it no counter protesters would have turned up at all?

 

[JPRouve]

What does everyone think would have happened to this far right march it no counter protesters would have turned up at all?

Probably nothing, as long as no dark skinned people met them.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Probably nothing, as long as no dark skinned people met them.

I think the counter protesters gave them exactly what they wanted in the end, oxygen.

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[Nucks]

Seems a rather pointless debate on who instigated violence on who.

The Nazi and Klansman components of that demonstration did not travel thousands of miles for just a meet up and non-physical protest. Everything about that display was intended to show that they don't just exist on internet forums, and are a very real and potentially very deadly presence. Likewise, radical leftists did not travel thousands of miles to do anything other than fight, regardless of whether they would be pitted against full blown nazis or right-leaning college kids.

Frankly it's a miracle no one was shot.

The American, Australians, Kiwis and Canadians that traveled thousands of miles across oceans to fight the Nazi's in Europe are as equally guilty of violence in WW2 as the Nazi's were I suppose.

Makes sense, in a frittata sort of way.

 

[Stocar]

What does everyone think would have happened to this far right march it no counter protesters would have turned up at all?

Yeah, it's better to ignore problems than confront and expose them. I'm sure that will work well with the problem of nazis, as always.

 

[berbatrick]

What does everyone think would have happened to this far right march it no counter protesters would have turned up at all?

There were a couple of far-right rallies in the last few months in Washington DC, with no counter-protesters. The only drama came from hilarious infighting, but it also seems that the networks built to organise those were now strong enough to organise Charlottesville.

 

[Redlambs]

I'm not questioning your readiness to fight for what is right, and that honestly never crossed my mind.

The left acts like the right here only when the left screams "blood and soil", and looks for the extermination of all white people. The left matching the violence of the right doesn't create equivalence, no matter how many times Trump may try to draw that parallel.

It comes down to the earlier post I made. If a Nazi/KKK member gets punched, the punch may be counter-productive to peace, but the peace, a social construct in which all live in harmony with each other, is already broken when a Nazi opens his mouth and vomits hateful and bigoted things, targeted towards a specific group of people. The punch is an escalation of an already started conflict. Peace being prioritized over all other factors is the privilege of those (us) who aren't in these spaces, and can sit back and calmly tut, "violence is never acceptable".

That's fair, and thank you. I feel I'm getting a better understanding on this and see where one of my earlier posts was worded wrong. Just 2 things to clear up from my pov though:

1) I'm not saying violence is never acceptable, I'm saying using it in the same way as them (i.e looking for it) should be avoided.
2) I'm talking more about how we move on and fight long term against this rise. It can't be all on an eye for an eye otherwise this will never end. We need to educate even further, because those racist idiots we are up against sure learnt it from somewhere.


Now it might all be a bit pie in the sky of me, but this scum haven't been bubbling away all this time and found a way to come to the surface, and I just feel like they have to be put back down in a similar manner. It just feels like we are falling into exactly what they want if we go that route and we have to be smart about it. And yes, I use the term we because this isn't limited to just KKK, white supremacy and America, the far right is crawling out of the woodwork everywhere and even people who identify as centrist should be their enemy. But once again, for clarity (because people have an amazing ability on here to read posts and completely ignore the meaning, not that I'm saying you specifically), in situations of self defense or Nazi aggression, then I'm all for them getting a good smack. I have no sympathy for them, nor do I expect people to stand there using words in the face of such hate and anger.

 

[berbatrick]

He doxxed himself too, gave out his phone number.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Yeah, it's better to ignore problems than confront and expose them. I'm sure that will work well with the problem of nazis, as always.

Give them loads of publicity across the world. Make them seem important. Further exacerbate the divisions between right and left in America and likely recruit more to their cause. Sounds like a great plan.

 

[Stocar]

Give them loads of publicity across the world. Make them seem important. Further exacerbate the divisions between right and left in America and likely recruit more to their cause. Sounds like a great plan.

Politics is not some sort of closed system that must be kept in equilibrium at all cost. If it were like that, there would be no progress. Violence that escalated that day was always present, as it is systemic. It's just that you aren't (or you perceive you aren't) on the wrong end of it, so it's irrelevant for you. Society is always in the state of conflict, what we can try is to make it more humane and decent. Civil rights activists were also widely perceived as troublemakers at the time, with exactly the same argument as yours.

 

[Raoul]

\

 

[2cents]

Account of intimidation at a Charlottesville synagogue - http://reformjudaism.org/blog/2017/...l&utm_campaign=BlogPost&utm_content=Zimmerman

 

[hobbers]

The American, Australians, Kiwis and Canadians that traveled thousands of miles across oceans to fight the Nazi's in Europe are as equally guilty of violence in WW2 as the Nazi's were I suppose.

Makes sense, in a frittata sort of way.

Well, yeah. Those Nazis only wanted to hold a few demonstrations and maybe a couple of marches when they dropped in on Poland, have a little sing song maybe, and then go home.

Absolutely no excuse for invading Normandy.

 

[Silva]

Well, yeah. Those Nazis only wanted to hold a few demonstrations and maybe a couple of marches when they dropped in on Poland, have a little sing song maybe, and then go home.

Absolutely no excuse for invading Normandy.

Good point, we should wait until they invade a country.

 

[JustAFan]

I know Rachel Maddow's not everyone's favourite but I thought this was a really good segment.



Had no idea the KKK were that prevalent.

Upper estimates of the Klan membership during the early 1900's range from 4 to 7 million I think. Current estimates are that they only have maybe 8,000 to 10,000 active members. Which might seem low until you remember that being racist does not automatically make you a Klan member (though being a Klan member does make you a racist).