Chelsea 2017/18 thread - FA Cup Champs, League chumps

KM said:
That's not what I said. Learn to read before engaging.

You have been trying to argue that Morata is better than Lukaku which clearly he isn't.
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Definitely agree with you, for this season at least.

You have to remember why we sold Lukaku though. He choked his penalty in the super cup final against Bayern. Mourinho sold him immediately. He’s only ever won a Belgium league title, that’s it.

Big question marks over his big game temperament still for me. With Utd going out of the CL against Seville this year, despite him scoring one goal I don’t think he’s answered them, at all.

Morata hasn’t been great for a lot of this season. I agree. He doesn't look happy, subbed on for 1 minute (against Utd I think?), maybe not settled in England.

Morata has won two Italian leagues with Juve though, two with RM. Two CL medals. Scored the crucial goal against RM for Juve in 2015 and one in the final, and generally showed his class on the biggest stage for RM and Juve.

If it doesn’t work out for Morata at Chelsea he’ll go to another top European club and succeed as he has done in the last few seasons.
 
Mb194dc said:
Definitely agree with you, for this season at least.

You have to remember why we sold Lukaku though. He choked his penalty in the super cup final against Bayern. Mourinho sold him immediately. He’s only ever won a Belgium league title, that’s it.

Big question marks over his big game temperament still for me. With Utd going out of the CL against Seville this year, despite him scoring one goal I don’t think he’s answered them, at all.

Morata hasn’t been great for a lot of this season. I agree. He doesn't look happy, subbed on for 1 minute (against Utd I think?), maybe not settled in England.

Morata has won two Italian leagues with Juve though, two with RM. Two CL medals. Scored the crucial goal against RM for Juve in 2015 and one in the final, and generally showed his class on the biggest stage for RM and Juve.

If it doesn’t work out for Morata at Chelsea he’ll go to another top European club and succeed as he has done in the last few seasons.
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Fair post and I'd be lying if I said that I didn't had the same concerns over him when we signed him but his performances since new years have quelled those doubts for me. He's been our best outfield player in the last three-four months. Was very good against you lot and Liverpool. Our only saving grace against Sevilla.

All those previous accomplishments that you've mentioned about Morata came when he was either playing as a second striker or as a backup. He has done nothing in his career to suggest that he can be a very good lone striker for a top team like yourselves.
 
Mb194dc said:
Big question marks over his big game temperament still for me. With Utd going out of the CL against Seville this year, despite him scoring one goal I don’t think he’s answered them, at all.
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He was our best player against Sevilla, was a threat throughout the game, made slick passes and produced a goal despite his teammates doing feck all. What more could he do when the other outfield players were asleep?

He was one of our best players against Liverpool and Chelsea. Not for his goals, but more for his all-round play. I think they count as big game performances.

Morata has won two Italian leagues with Juve though, two with RM. Two CL medals. Scored the crucial goal against RM for Juve in 2015 and one in the final, and generally showed his class on the biggest stage for RM and Juve.
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How many of those medals has he won by starting regularly or carrying his team? That's the question.

Morata is technically gifted but I am not sure he has the mentality to succeed at a top club. Unless he changes, a move to Milan or Valencia looks more likely than top clubs in the future (assuming Milan despite being a big club, don't improve their position).
 
There's not much difference in quality between Morata and Lukaku imo. Lukaku has done better this season because Morata has been injured for some of the time and has in general struggled to fit in this Chelsea team. The entire team is going through a slump though, so his poor performance can be as easily be blamed on Conte as on himself. As far as strikers go, Kane and Aguero standout. The rest of them, Firmino, Lukaku, Morata, Laca, Auba are just a much of a muchness.
 
sunama said:
Apart form his power and pace (which is well suited for the EPL), he plays with a lot of passion and doesn't give up until the final whistle.
What I also like about him is that he always turns up in the big matches. In fact, it's the big matches where he seems to shine the most. The bigger the crowd. The bigger the stadium. The bigger the spectacle, the better he performs.
I still remember what he did against us, when we lost 5-3, after leading 3-1. That was brutal to watch.
Under Jose, he'd be the player who is brought on at 70 minutes, to break a dead-lock and let's not forget, Jose loves counter attacking football, which Vardy is built for.
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How many games per season we play counter attacking football ? Probably 6-8

He wouldn't start above Lukaku and would only be a back up for us under Jose.
 
Apocalypse said:
If it was that clear then it wouldn't be a discussion would it?

Lukaku may have more goals/assists, but if i've learnt anything from the Messi Vs Ronaldo thread it's never to use that as the basis for your argument when debating over who the better player is, and right now that is the only argument in Lukaku's favour. I'm also fully aware Utd are 11 points ahead of us, and Morata has struggled to settle in properly into a new league with a team who have performed well below expectations. It's not an excuse, that's just fact. He's not the reason we're sitting in fifth spot.

Hey, you're welcome to think i'm talking out my arse though, i'm just judging them both from what i've seen - Lukaku with us, Everton and Utd and Morata with us, Real and to a lesser extent Juventus. Neither worth the money paid, but I have no doubt whatsoever Lukaku wouldn't have been any better for us than Morata, his lead foot first touch and hold up play would drive me insane. I'll happily admit i'm wrong if he can produce the goods when it matters most, like Morata did with Juventus in Europe and Real Madrid in the league last season.
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So you're basing your entire argument on the fact that Morata has yet to settle at Chelsea. Okay, do you not think that him starting the season very well kind invalidates that argument entirely
 
tenpoless said:
Let him have his escape, this denial is his coping mechanism of Chelsea's shit season after becoming Champions just 10 months ago... crazy stuffs.
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I don't think United fans can talk about denial when we see some of the comments in Kante's thread.

KM said:
Some Chelsea fans fast becoming the most deluded lot on here. Some claimed that Matic was washed up and Chelsea wouldn't miss him. How is that turning up?
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There's a difference between fecking up with his sale and fecking up with his replacement. The latter we did without a shadow of a doubt but their seems to be a lot of rewritting of history with a former.
 
Kapardin said:
He was our best player against Sevilla, was a threat throughout the game, made slick passes and produced a goal despite his teammates doing feck all. What more could he do when the other outfield players were asleep?

He was one of our best players against Liverpool and Chelsea. Not for his goals, but more for his all-round play. I think they count as big game performances.



How many of those medals has he won by starting regularly or carrying his team? That's the question.

Morata is technically gifted but I am not sure he has the mentality to succeed at a top club. Unless he changes, a move to Milan or Valencia looks more likely than top clubs in the future (assuming Milan despite being a big club, don't improve their position).
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He did play 49 games for Juventus in 14/15 and score two goals in Champions league semi finals against Real Madrid putting Juventus in the final. Granted he was more a support striker but still a very important player for the team. I think that's the last CL knockout tie RM lost?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...ates-childhood-club-real-madrid-1-2-juventus/

He also scored in the final which Juventus lost, and impressed in the CL generally for Juventus, notably that run against Bayern the next season, amongst other things.

Granted he didn't get too many minutes at RM, but did have CR7, Benzema and Bale in front of him.
 
Mb194dc said:
No one has replaced Terry and Lampard in the dressing rooom. Utd have Rashford, Lingard, McTominay etc and we need to get a young core like that too.
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Chelsea should have a good enough academy to pad their squad with young players. That's important. Not everyone has City's budget and can buy quality in backup positions. Therefore academy products can help bridge that gap. Plus they often have more passion for the club which is a huge bonus.
Apocalypse said:
because no one wanted Lukaku back. It's quite amusing how some of you change your tune so quickly on a game by game basis with him. Hey ho, glad you're happy with him up front, and i'm happy for him, he's a Chelsea fan who just unfortunately wasn't good enough to make it with us.
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:lol: You continue without facts to base your bitter argument on. You're persistent, I'll give you that. For actual relevant Redcafe views on Lukaku, see this thread. But you won't because it doesn't fit your agenda. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/man-utd-player-of-the-month-march.437663/

And for what it's worth, here's the "Chelsea fan" celebrating the winner against Chelsea.

 
Mb194dc said:
He did play 49 games for Juventus in 14/15 and score two goals in Champions league semi finals against Real Madrid putting Juventus in the final. Granted he was more a support striker but still a very important player for the team. I think that's the last CL knockout tie RM lost?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...ates-childhood-club-real-madrid-1-2-juventus/

He also scored in the final which Juventus lost, and impressed in the CL generally for Juventus, notably that run against Bayern the next season, amongst other things.

Granted he didn't get too many minutes at RM, but did have CR7, Benzema and Bale in front of him.
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Yes, even I remember his CL performance, which was impressive. It was why I wanted us to buy him initially, for I thought he could do a good job leading the line. But now it is clear that the pressure of being a first choice striker is quite unique, especially when the team around you is not performing well (as in Lukaku's case), and you need to be physically and mentally up for it. Morata has not shown he can handle that sort of pressure.

He's basically a striker version of Mkhitaryan perhaps, can look extremely good and even decisive when supported by the entire team, and when he is not the main man, but buckles under pressure and cannot be consistent as the first choice. Still doesn't mean he will remain this way, but next season will be pivotal for him.
 
Fridge chutney said:
Chelsea should have a good enough academy to pad their squad with young players. That's important. Not everyone has City's budget and can buy quality in backup positions. Therefore academy products can help bridge that gap. Plus they often have more passion for the club which is a huge bonus.

:lol: You continue without facts to base your bitter argument on. You're persistent, I'll give you that. For actual relevant Redcafe views on Lukaku, see this thread. But you won't because it doesn't fit your agenda. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/man-utd-player-of-the-month-march.437663/

And for what it's worth, here's the "Chelsea fan" celebrating the winner against Chelsea.

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Drogba was an Arsenal fan, didn't stop him taking off his shirt and running in the crowd after netting vs them. JT was a United fan, didn't stop him going mad when he scored what eventually turned out to be a title winning goal against you lot.

As for the academy i agree, unlike previous youth cup winning bunch some of our current 17-18 yo players look like they have the minerals to make the step up (CHO, Ampadu, Mount).
 
When I see Chelsea fans mention Lukaku's 'lead first touch' and terrible hold up play it's quite obvious they haven't seen much of him at all this season. Also using the Sevilla game to critise him (when he scored a goal and was our best player) is beyond ridiculous.

As for ''no one wanted him at Chelsea" again we know that wasn't the case given Chelsea chased him all summer and even matched United's bid when it was lodged. The player simply chose to move to Old Trafford. You win some you lose some, much like when Chelsea beat United to Hazard. No need to be so delusional and bitter about it to the extent you make things up.

@Mb194dc @Dancfc @Apocalypse

Anyway back on topic...

I wonder who the next Chelsea coach will be? Some may be put off by the way things have panned out with Conte and the clear issues regarding control/transfers etc.

Possibly time for Chelsea to change approach or specifically go for a coach who will accept just being that and nothing more.
 
Dancfc said:
Drogba was an Arsenal fan, didn't stop him taking off his shirt and running in the crowd after netting vs them. JT was a United fan, didn't stop him going mad when he scored what eventually turned out to be a title winning goal against you lot.

As for the academy i agree, unlike previous youth cup winning bunch some of our current 17-18 yo players look like they have the minerals to make the step up (CHO, Ampadu, Mount).
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Agree @Dancfc , but I guarantee that JT and Drogba now have only 1 club in their hearts and that club is neither Arsenal nor United. I was responding to this guy in particular who is really coming across poorly.

To your second point yes - I don't doubt it. Chelsea seem to have a great youth scouting department and have pumped resources into their academy. The tough part is capturing the benefits of this work in the first team.
 
Holy shit the outdated views in this thread are ridiculous.
LW, RW, Pogba have all been shuffled about all season. Lingard was a late starter as well.
Guess who the constant is?
His spread of goals is impressive, he's the difference between the failure to score from a million chances to where we are today.
He drifts wide and allows the widemen to drift in, he drops deep and supplements Lingards runs (Is his form a coincidence?)
But he wouldn't improve on a Morata who scored twice in 4 odd months.
That fabled great start he had huh? Fans are hanging on to to those 5/6 weeks like grim death. I understand, we had Mkhitaryan but it really is laughable.
 
TheReligion said:
When I see Chelsea fans mention Lukaku's 'lead first touch' and terrible hold up play it's quite obvious they haven't seen much of him at all this season. Also using the Sevilla game to critise him (when he scored a goal and was our best player) is beyond ridiculous.

As for ''no one wanted him at Chelsea" again we know that wasn't the case given Chelsea chased him all summer and even matched United's bid when it was lodged. The player simply chose to move to Old Trafford. You win some you lose some, much like when Chelsea beat United to Hazard. No need to be so delusional and bitter about it to the extent you make things up.

@Mb194dc @Dancfc @Apocalypse

Anyway back on topic...

I wonder who the next Chelsea coach will be? Some may be put off by the way things have panned out with Conte and the clear issues regarding control/transfers etc.

Possibly time for Chelsea to change approach or specifically go for a coach who will accept just being that and nothing more.
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A lot of Chelsea fans didn't, visit Talk Chelsea or the Shed End and view his page and your see it. FWIW Morata wasn't a popular choice either, most members had their heart set on Belloti or Auba. Conte and the club however clearly wanted him we can't argue with that.

I am not convinced he has such a little say as made out re transfers, yes there are some evident board signings like Barkley, Bats and possibly Drinkwater but if our board started a fettish for Serie A players and target men at the exact same time a manager from Italy with a reputation for using targetmen arrived (Llorente, Pelle, Mandzukic, even Bendtner), it is a truly remarkable coincidence.
 
Conte has done an absolutely awful job this season.

Constantly moaned inferring that he needs better players, and mysteriously the performance of the ones he does have, has deteriorated. Is there any line of work where as a manager, you can effectively slag off your employees week after week, and expect them to carry on working to the same level?

Their form since Christmas must be on a par if not worse than their form under Jose at the start of last season.

More deserving of the boot than most managers Chelsea have gotten rid of over the last 10 years.
 
Fully Fledged said:


Are we getting a new AFTV.
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They still seem in control of their emotions at this point, it's going to take another poor season by their standards, the sale of Hazard to United and Courtois to Real before they truly enter meltdown mode.

The potential is there, they just need a little push to tip them over the edge.
 
From the 2011-2012 season and the 2013-2014 season these are some of the players we signed...

Musonda, Christensen, Hazard, Oscar, Azpi, Schurrle, Willian, Matic, Salah, Zouma, Courtois, De Bruyne, Lukaku, Cahill and Mata


What a ridiculous list of talented players. Now imagine if we had a manager that wasn't under extreme pressure to win trophies and was given time to actually integrate these players and build a team. Imagine what kind of position we would be in now?

Also, whoever was in charge of transfers in those years needs to come back. Funnily enough, it might have been Emenalo and look at how much hate he received?
 
Apocalypse said:
For him on a personal level he wasted much of his career as a bit part player for Madrid, never really got a look in even when Benzema was out of form
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To be fair, Morata wanted to stay at Juventus but Madrid activated his buy-out clause in order to sell him for ridiculously high bid.

Benzema was never 'out of form' last season, don't know why people keep saying that lmfao. Not only was Morata a worse player than Benzema, the Spaniard couldn't play alongside with Cristiano. Morata thrived when he used to be the focal point with the B-team or coming in late against tied legs.
 
Mb194dc said:
Definitely agree with you, for this season at least.

You have to remember why we sold Lukaku though. He choked his penalty in the super cup final against Bayern. Mourinho sold him immediately. He’s only ever won a Belgium league title, that’s it.

Big question marks over his big game temperament still for me. With Utd going out of the CL against Seville this year, despite him scoring one goal I don’t think he’s answered them, at all.

Morata hasn’t been great for a lot of this season. I agree. He doesn't look happy, subbed on for 1 minute (against Utd I think?), maybe not settled in England.

Morata has won two Italian leagues with Juve though, two with RM. Two CL medals. Scored the crucial goal against RM for Juve in 2015 and one in the final, and generally showed his class on the biggest stage for RM and Juve.

If it doesn’t work out for Morata at Chelsea he’ll go to another top European club and succeed as he has done in the last few seasons.
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Chelsea didn't sell him because Lukaku missed penalty. He was loaned out as he wanted out after Chelsea signed Costa and Eto'o.

So big question mark because ManUtd went out against Sevilla even though he was our best player in second leg and score a goal? Like I said, Chelsea fans are getting way too desperate.

Re achievements, O'Shea has better medal tally than Gerrard. Morata was back up player at Juventus and Madrid.
 
Apocalypse said:
If it was that clear then it wouldn't be a discussion would it?

Lukaku may have more goals/assists, but if i've learnt anything from the Messi Vs Ronaldo thread it's never to use that as the basis for your argument when debating over who the better player is, and right now that is the only argument in Lukaku's favour. I'm also fully aware Utd are 11 points ahead of us, and Morata has struggled to settle in properly into a new league with a team who have performed well below expectations. It's not an excuse, that's just fact. He's not the reason we're sitting in fifth spot.

Hey, you're welcome to think i'm talking out my arse though, i'm just judging them both from what i've seen - Lukaku with us, Everton and Utd and Morata with us, Real and to a lesser extent Juventus. Neither worth the money paid, but I have no doubt whatsoever Lukaku wouldn't have been any better for us than Morata, his lead foot first touch and hold up play would drive me insane. I'll happily admit i'm wrong if he can produce the goods when it matters most, like Morata did with Juventus in Europe and Real Madrid in the league last season.
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That's the only argument in Lukaku's favour? How about holding his position in second placed team and the best outfield player for ManUtd since Jan?

The only argument you can even think of is first touch nonsense. Morata's hold up play is piss poor and he spends most of his time on his arse than on his foot.

Also if you think it's like comparing Messi vs Ronaldo, then you sort of have point. It's just that Lukaku is better at passing in the final third than Morata. Ronaldo scores shit loads of goals but Morata can't finish with his either foot. He can finish only headers.

It was even contest for first 2-3 months and from then it's not even a contest. Morata is dropped for big games and isn't even regular for Chelsea.
 
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That is an interesting one. Slight risk as he hasn't managed a team as high profile and with so much pressure to get results all the time.

Definitely a good option to get the best out of Bakayoko though.

Plays good football and seems to like using young players.

It's going to be hard to win a lot of trophies, then again with Guardiola at City it wil be very hard for any manager to win much for the next few seasons.

I would welcome him.
 
Bringing in Jardim as manager and Luis Campos as DOF would be very interesting. That Monaco side was ridiculously good

Even though we've won two League titles in the last 4 years we don't seem to have a long term plan going forward, we've failed to integrate our talented academy players and signed a lot of crap. Win the League then finish 10th, win the League then finish 5th.

We can't buy our way out of trouble anymore and we can't compete financially with City and Utd. We are still able to spend large sums of money but that money needs to be spent in a much better way

We need a manager and a DOF that share the same vision, that brings in players that would suit the way the manager wants to play and start building a world class squad with a clear identity. This may mean a few years without a League title but we would benefit greatly in the long run
 
Chelsea won 3-0 away to Birmingham in the FA Youth Cup semi 1st leg. Going to be a huge shock if we don't make the final now.
 
CechMate1 said:
Bringing in Jardim as manager and Luis Campos as DOF would be very interesting. That Monaco side was ridiculously good

Even though we've won two League titles in the last 4 years we don't seem to have a long term plan going forward, we've failed to integrate our talented academy players and signed a lot of crap. Win the League then finish 10th, win the League then finish 5th.

We can't buy our way out of trouble anymore and we can't compete financially with City and Utd. We are still able to spend large sums of money but that money needs to be spent in a much better way

We need a manager and a DOF that share the same vision, that brings in players that would suit the way the manager wants to play and start building a world class squad with a clear identity. This may mean a few years without a League title but we would benefit greatly in the long run
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The club can spend large sums of money only if an equivalent amount of players in transfer value are sold. This summer there aren’t anymore squad fillers to sell and if the board wishes to spend, it’s the first team players that will need to be sold which means the squad quality could be weakened even further if new players brought in are sub par. No surprise if this occurs judging by player recruitment since 2015.

As for instilling a vision, I fail to see this situation ever changing as Roman wants to have his cake and eat it too i.e. he wants trophies and title challenges right now and he also wants youth integration and attractive football but not at the expense of results. As such, there is no coach or manager on Earth who can fulfill what he wants hence I couldn't be bothered whatsoever with whoever he hires to replace Conte. It will only end in frustration.
 
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4th title winning side, since Fergie left the scene, to fall down the table (badly) the following season. Becoming quite a common occurrence.
 
Minimalist said:
4th title winning side, since Fergie left the scene, to fall down the table (badly) the following season. Becoming quite a common occurrence.
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Your lips to the football god’s ears for the next champions to follow suit!
 
People claiming Mourinho is a miserable git, I thought so too, until I met Conte.
 
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