Moyes will do alright there. He is a decent lower mid table manager, was way out of depth at United and couldn't handle the pressure along with being nowhere near good enough. At a relegation fighting club like Sunderland though, he'll do okay and probably keep them up. Kind of hope he takes a few of ours like fellaini/Rojo/Januzaj to give Januzaj confidence and consistent games, and also just take the first 2 cause they're crap.
David Moyes | West Ham in talks with him for managerial job
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
People keep going on about him 'finding his level' and being 'a good lower mid table manager'. So what exactly was the Spanish gig then? I would have thought that the job would be made for him, fits his ability perfectly.
He's done in football management, the United job ruined his career. A bad move for both parties.
He's done in football management, the United job ruined his career. A bad move for both parties.
Just like Ferguson wrecked his chances of succeeding at United because he left him a squad that was only capable of finishing half way down the table without Ferguson there to hold their collective hand and hypnotize them all into playing way above than their actual level.
His chances of succeeding at Sociedad were wrecked by the fact that the inconsiderate bastards all insisted on speaking Spanish and he couldn't properly communicate his brilliant tactical ideas to the players. So it was a language barrier thing.
But he's also a really hard worker (and honest) so the language barrier wouldn't have been a problem for long as he was taking 2-3 spanish lessons a day to get up to speed with the language he just needed more time, he definitely wasn't walking the streets of San Sebastian every night with his assistant Billy McKinlay eating in every restaurant in town and treating it like a paid holiday.
£13M, the fecking cnut! Make him wait to the end of the season and make him pay £27M.
13 fecking million, piss off you absolute weapon.
13 fecking million, piss off you absolute weapon.
Well I think all of that just proves my comment?
Benitez does well for the clubs you mentioned and Moyes does pretty well with the clubs of his calibre. Everton past decade imo had been overachieving with Moyes. He studied a ship that was drowning fast and took them to a consistent top 6 premier league club. They both have their strengths. Benitez may be a higher caliber manager but both have bad reps in football right now because they punched about their weight - Benitez with Inter/Madrid and Moyes with Manchester (though I think Moyes may yet be able to redeem himself to some extent)
Well said Colin. Moyes has some front. Fellani is worth £30m in the current market.
If he was really worth £13M, Wenger would be in for him.
I just met him yesterday and his new team at Evian (my hometown) during their pre season game.
Really nice guy. Had a good talk and was really happy to know I'm a United fan.
I also saw Sheazy and thanked him for THAT goal at Anfield and his display as a keeper. Top guy !!
Really nice guy. Had a good talk and was really happy to know I'm a United fan.
I also saw Sheazy and thanked him for THAT goal at Anfield and his display as a keeper. Top guy !!
I'd take 18m for him
tbf, he'd be blowing half his transfer budget and he wouldn't know what to do with him anyway.
Interesting especially, When you consider these players in today's lineup:
--------------------De Gea (25)
------------------Lindegaard (32)
Rafael(26)--Smalling(26)--Jones(24)--Evra(35)
Fabio(26)--Evans(28)------------------Buttner(27)
Nani(29)----Carrick(34)--Cleverley(26)--Young(31)
Valencia(30)--Fletcher(32)--Anderson(31)--Welbeck(25)
Januzaj(21)
--------------------Rooney(30)
--------------------Kagawa(27)
--------------------Van Persie(33)
--------------------Hernandez(28)
Apart from LB, LW, CM and ST, they are still in good range. Yet only 8/22 remain. And we have spent around 360m since SAF's departure
So that's a guaranteed 6 points for the top 6.
Because Sunderland's primary objective has been safety. They haven't been able to take the next step and establish themselves in PL like other sides. With Moyes, they can atleast hope that he'd establish them as lower PL team like WBA under Pulis and then start rebuilding to take them to the level, he took Everton to.
I got one of the ages wrong Anderson is actually only 28 now. Not that it really matters.
A few of them like Anderson, Fletcher and Fabio, maybe Buttner as well definitely needed moved on but Van Gaal sold way more than he had to in too short a space of time. The likes of Rafael, Evans, Evra, Nani, Welbeck, Kagawa and Hernandez are still more than good enough to be useful members of last seasons squad. And going off last seasons showing a few of them would be in the first XI.
No doubt a lot were moved on because they didn't suit Van Gaals possession philosophy, but LVG in hindsight did a terrible job of reshaping the squad. Sold good players for a pittance and spent hundreds of millions on others and i honestly don't think the squad he left was all that good certainly not better than the one Ferguson left in my opinion. Bar Smalling and De Gea who were already here, Martial a rare good buy and the emergence of a few good young players form the youth system not many of the current squad have been in great form.
The assumption that Moyes is some kind of stability man in the same vein as Pulis and Allardyce isn't based on very much evidence aside from the assertion they play in a similar style (which also isn't true, to his credit).
Moyes proved at Everton, with time, that he could keep a good side, on very good wages, in the top half of the league. That he can waltz into relegation-beckoned clubs and create some kind of immediate and positive impact is yet to be seen.
If anything, Moyes' time at Everton proves that he needs to be very settled at a club to really make it work. His periods at both United and Sociedad argue that when out of his comfort zone he will sink rather than swim. This is a risky match for both parties, no doubt about it. Sunderland are truly shite. If he can keep them up then he's done well.
Moyes proved at Everton, with time, that he could keep a good side, on very good wages, in the top half of the league. That he can waltz into relegation-beckoned clubs and create some kind of immediate and positive impact is yet to be seen.
If anything, Moyes' time at Everton proves that he needs to be very settled at a club to really make it work. His periods at both United and Sociedad argue that when out of his comfort zone he will sink rather than swim. This is a risky match for both parties, no doubt about it. Sunderland are truly shite. If he can keep them up then he's done well.
Moyes inherited a relatively weak squad by title winner standards but, without a parallel universe, it's hard to assess just how much of United's collapse was down to the team. For example, Ferdinand was still a good player in 12/13, even if past his best, while Van Persie had been outstanding that season. Did their physical abilities just give in at the same time or could a more inspiring manager have got one more productive season out of them? Evra's subsequent United career also suggests that he was not as washed up as he looked in 13/14.
Trying to be objective with the whole Moyes fiasco (which I don't always find easy), I'd sum it up as follows - whoever followed Fergie that year would have walked into an outdated set up that had been built around one (irreplaceable) man and inherited an underpowered team but an A list manager (or even an up and coming B list) would have been able to gain the respect of the players and identify, and work better with the CEO to remedy, the priority areas of weakness. There would still have been a drop off but not to the depths of 7th. Instead we hired a very limited manager who had already been in stagnation mode for 4 years and the rest is history (in fact it is still with us but I trust Jose will put things right).
Moyes had that Soceidad spell which he also failed. Can't use the excuse of foreign league as Benitez got recognition in Spain, England and Italy.
As much as Toon got relegated, Benitez showed they were able to pick up some form toward the end. Only him being given the job so late to turn it around.
So I disagree with Benitez and Moyes being in same category. Moyes gives off the aura of the guy who by luck find his comfort zone (club) and now can't adapt to change once he moves outside his comfort zone. Benitez simply can't move to the next level, but he can bring any clubs below his level up to better view. Big Sam and Pulis is more like the lower level of Benitez than Moyes. Very distinct in my view.
I hope this is true. I like Fellaini but not the way he goes about his business on the pitch. £13M sounds wonderful to my ears. Take him Moyesy!
Yeah i agree with a lot of that mate. The thing is yes there was always likely to be a drop off, i mean no one expected Moyes to win the League. Very few managers if any would have been capable in their first season at United after Ferguson.
But what i dispute is this idea that the squad was crap and Moyes finished as high as he could with the players he had available. Which is quite frankly bollocks, we had a good first XI and a decent squad. Coming 4th at least should have been a tap in for Moyes with a side that had amassed 89 points the previous two seasons.
Moyes is a good manager i don't like the man but he is. If he could get Everton to consistently finish 5th-6th then he should have been able to get the current champions to finish 4th without breaking a sweat to be perfectly honest.
The fact he didn't manage that suggests to me that he completely mis-managed the team/squad/club behind the scenes. Ferguson advised him to keep the coaching staff and Mulenstein told him he had to adapt to United not the other way around. But he ignored all that advice and made way too many rash changes way too quickly. And he completely fecked up his first transfer window by being way too tentative and pissing about during the entire month of June on holiday, contrast that to Jose having 3 signings done and dusted before July (while still under the terms of a contract with another club).
If Ferguson was able to get that team to play to their maximum potential then clearly Moyes had the polar opposite effect and had them playing well below their natural level. He has to take the blame for the majority of this, yes Woodward might have made mistakes also but he was given pie in the sky targets he didn't have the experience to pull off. When you analyze his time at United he has no one but himself to blame for his failure.
You're laregly discrediting Moyes here. His time at sunderland will tell. Sociedad is too small of a sample size to judge him.
I'll go on to say I expect sunderland to finish above Everton this year.
Sure time will tell.
If you discount Soceidad time (last 1 day shy from a whole year since his official appointment date to his official sacking date) then Moyes would be very happy to use the same reason to discount his United time, which is shorter.
Based on what?!? Moyes has been a complete under-achiever.. He won division 2 in 1999 with Preston and a Community Shield with the champions in 2012 and subsequently turned them to turd.
He's a charlatan & anyone that has the audacity to call him a "very good manager" needs to reevaluate their thoughts on football entirely!
Based on his long stay at Everton maybe?
Benitez might be a fat waiter but he's a decent manager and has proven it at a number of clubs
The only thing Rafa has in common with Moyes, as far as a career, is his meltdown at Liverpool and disaster at Inter
The only thing Rafa has in common with Moyes, as far as a career, is his meltdown at Liverpool and disaster at Inter
Where he achieved a grand total of nothing.
Anderson had a 'long stay' at Utd.... doesn't mean he was a 'very good' footballer.
I've parked in the 'long stay' at Manchester Airport.... doesn't mean I'm a pilot!
If anything, his long, uneventful tenure at Everton shows the complete lack of ambition of the club. Ranieri has bucked the trend entirely. Any club can achieve anything.... except a club with Moyes involved at any level.
Anyone who's read this thread will know i am not Moyes biggest fan having said that he is a good manager for a certain type of side.
But he's comfortably a few levels below Benitez. Rafa has won trophies wherever he's went domestic and european. Moyes hasn't, for the record i dislike Benitez almost as much as i do Moyes.
But he's comfortably a few levels below Benitez. Rafa has won trophies wherever he's went domestic and european. Moyes hasn't, for the record i dislike Benitez almost as much as i do Moyes.
Stupid analogy which is exposed by Roberto Martinez time at the same club with a better squad. Everton were always scraping the barrel financially whilst he was there he did a very good job there.
The job that Ranieri has done at Leicester isn't something that any other manager of a mid-table/relegation contending club should be beaten around the head with as last season at Leicester was something we won't see again for a number of years perhaps even decades.
Roberto Martinez's troubles at Everton only serve to prove that in the long run Moyes is better than Martinez. That doesn't indicate anything else in the bigger picture and Moyes' failure at elevating Everton beyond his 6th - 8th level can be an indictment of the man even before his United shitfest is taken into account.
It's only fair that he comes in with a 35m unconditional offer for Fellaini
The thing is, can the likes of Pulis/Pardew/Allardyce and other manager on his level (midtable) obtain that if they're given 6 years of the same job without being sacked?
I'd say that any half decent managers that's given 6 years can easily attain that which makes his achivement is very much par
Moyes had 2 bottom half finishes in 11 seasons.
Pretty sure Pulis had 5 with stoke- with 5 bottom half finishes; Hughes has since then guided them to 3 top half finishes. And even at WBA- 2 seasons 2 bottom half finishes.
Big Sam- had 6 seasons in PL with Bolton- 9th, 10th, 14th, 16th, 15th 16th; with WHU 3 seasons: 10th, 13th, 12th
Pardew- 5th, 16th, 10th and they were around 12th iirc when he left for Palace
And before you argue Everton were a far better side when he arrived, Everton's finishes had been 15th,17th, 14th, 13th, 16th, 16th, 15th from 1996-97 to 2001-02
I think the game has simply moved on from the skill set that Moyes has relied upon and used to such good effect at times. His penchant is to find an element of under appreciated talents and make the most out of what they could offer. He did this very well for the most part at Everton, hence the tangible results illustrated above. This combined with lower wages and smaller ego's created an environment whereby he had power and control. The modern game is about mega millionaire teenagers who simply have no worries about what the manager does or says as its easier to sack 1 coach than 10 players. Interestingly, looking at the one 'ego' that wanted to demand things their own way.... Rooney, and it all fell apart. In hindsight that should've been a indicator of what was to come. He simply doesn't have the mentality nor the skill set for the modern game with modern demands. To be fair, not many do by all accounts so this season will be an interesting watch.
I am also not really a fan of Benitez, he perhaps has one of the biggest ego's around, he is detailed and very focussed on minutia, but it is what 'he' thinks is important. This was one of his issues at RM and one of the reasons he was always under pressure from within due to his personality and unwillingness to be open to advice / input. I get it, a coach has their own ideas and ways of doing things, but in the modern game its simply part of the process. I'd be interested to see how he does with Newcastle in the Championship, my inkling is that he will do well as the shock of relegation will wear off but the fear of not coming straight back up will allow him to exert his total control he craves with regards to coaching. I would hazard a guess this would've been part of the contractual negotiations.
I feel a little sorry for Moyes, worked hard for all the opportunities he earned as a coach / manager, coaching badges, education etc.... but 1 job too far and any good work he has done gets quickly overshadowed by the 1 failure. By all accounts I hear he is a very genuine guy.... But that means nowt in the big leagues!
I am also not really a fan of Benitez, he perhaps has one of the biggest ego's around, he is detailed and very focussed on minutia, but it is what 'he' thinks is important. This was one of his issues at RM and one of the reasons he was always under pressure from within due to his personality and unwillingness to be open to advice / input. I get it, a coach has their own ideas and ways of doing things, but in the modern game its simply part of the process. I'd be interested to see how he does with Newcastle in the Championship, my inkling is that he will do well as the shock of relegation will wear off but the fear of not coming straight back up will allow him to exert his total control he craves with regards to coaching. I would hazard a guess this would've been part of the contractual negotiations.
I feel a little sorry for Moyes, worked hard for all the opportunities he earned as a coach / manager, coaching badges, education etc.... but 1 job too far and any good work he has done gets quickly overshadowed by the 1 failure. By all accounts I hear he is a very genuine guy.... But that means nowt in the big leagues!
I wouldn't be against him taking januzaj and Memphis on loan
They'd both get regular minutes under him which they won't at United currently.
They'd both get regular minutes under him which they won't at United currently.
During Moyes time at Everton they consistently had the 7th-8th biggest wage bill in the league. So yes Moyes did have them punching above their weight with those lofty 5th-6th place finishes but at the same time he wasn't exactly turning water into wine.
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I agree with the parts about the United shitfest, he simply wasn't upto the job, however categorizing him not getting Everton above 6th or 8th consistently as a failure is being a little churlish as going on the back of their transfer spend per season they had no divine right to be there.
Didn't say he was turning water into wine, what I did say is he did a very good job at Everton which is supported by the fact that they were "punching above their weight" as you put it. Any manager who can get a club to punch above its weight is doing a good job, if you are a manager doing it for 9-10 seasons then you have done a very good job.
Yes he is a good manager and did a decent job at Everton, was just pointing out that Everton weren't exactly working on a show string budget while he was there. They always had a good net spend but they did spend money also. And their wage bill was outside the top 4-5 clubs pretty big all things considered.
Well the very good managers were able to break that glass ceiling by either winning with an underdog (Mourinho and Fergie) or doing enough at that level to get the attention of a more resourced employer (Ancelotti, Wenger, Pochettino). Moyes stayed too long at Everton whilst not improving himself as a manager in terms of tactics, man management and the market to really stand a chance of making the most our what had been a really promising start.
Yeah... no use arguing with you if you think Moyes just "stayed" at Everton for a long time. He's a really good manager above the levels of pardew, pulis etc but below someone like Benitez.