You're confusing me saying he did a very good job at Everton with calling him a very good manager. I would describe him as a good manager who did a very good job at Everton sorry to sound like I am nitpicking but I just need to be clear about his overall abilities vs the job he did in one of his managerial positions at a club for example I could say that Neil Warnock is an average manager who did a very good job getting Sheffield united into the premier league.
David Moyes | West Ham in talks with him for managerial job
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
You're confusing me saying he did a very good job at Everton with calling him a very good manager. I would describe him as a good manager who did a very good job at Everton sorry to sound like I am nitpicking but I just need to be clear about his overall abilities vs the job he did in one of his managerial positions at a club for example I could say that Neil Warnock is an average manager who did a very good job getting Sheffield united into the premier league.
Fair enough if that's what you are saying.
They'd certainly learn how to get to the by-line under Moyes.
Only if they have the required amount of football intelligence to understand the tactic though.
So a mid-table manager scraping the barrel financially shouldn't be measured against the accomplishments of a mid-table manager financially scraping the barrel?
Ranieri and his great management had a huge amount to do with Leicester winning last year. Had Moyes been Leicester manager last season, they 100% would not won the league. 100%.
highighting stayed and not just stayed. Outstanding indeed.
You could say the same about every other manager including Mourinho. Pointless.
Fair enough... but José has done it all... he's proven success everywhere he goes.
Moyes is a fraud. League 2 winner will be his highest achievement. Fact. To argue that he's a "very good" manager because he stagnated at Everton for a numeber of years is pointless!
He did a very good job as Everton manager. No need to be bitter.
He had Everton consistently fighting for a spot in Europe. I don't think anyone could have gotten them higher than that given their limitations.
You're talking out of your backside.
Moyes did a fine job at Everton on a tiny budget. He consistently signed good players for relatively small fees and had them finishing above teams with much bigger budgets.
You see how a good a job he did when you look at what Martinez did - despite having a lot more money to spend than Moyes.
He did stagnate at Everton towards the end. He turned them around from relegation battlers and put in place solid foundations but ultimately was too negative to take them to silverware or have much impact in Europe. Leicester are an outlier and it's unfair to use them as a stick with which to beat Moyes but over the last 15 years teams like Middlesboro, Wigan and Swansea have lifted trophies while Fulham, Rangers and Boro all got to European finals. All in all, you'd rate him B or B+ at Everton.
What the hell? That defeat doesn't define him... He will only grow. We all make bad career moves. We learn and find our feet. He will eventually. Wow the amount of underestimation of will power and overestimation of failure here is too much.
Stagnated at Everton? You just sound deluded now.
Stagnate: "cease developing, become inactive or dull"
He moved to Everton 2002/3 season, when they finished 7th on 59 points.
He left in 2012/13 season, when they finished 6th on 63 points.
A decade long stagnance where he reached the dizzy heights of 5th, twice, but in typical Moyes mediocrity fashion, also finished outside the top ten... Twice. One of which times just avoiding relegation in 2004.
Ceased developing & certainly dull.
See stats above.
Also, regarding budget... How did he do at Old Trafford with an abundance of wealth?
The Moyes sympathisers astound me.
He didn't have a "tiny" budget at Everton.
He had the 8th or 9th highest wage bill in the league, he had an "average" budget, that bought average players, that performed above average.
Sometimes.
What a load of nonsense.
You should probably look at where Everton finished prior to Moyes. 14th, 13th, 16th, 16th and 15th were their finishes.
Pointing out that Moyes did a good job at Everton is not being a Moyes sympathizer. Get a grip.
Not that there's anything wrong with being Moyes' sympathizer.
I'm no fan of moyes at all. Believe me. But your posts are making you both look like you lack huge understanding in how football teams work and both come across as quite naive and juvenile in your opinions.
This is a world where managers last an average of 8 months and many very good managers that were once household names vanish into obscurity. (O'leary, curbishley, roeder) to name just three. For a decade, to keep any team performing with consistency, bearing in mind that ten years sees massive turnover of key players and staff, was a great spell and Everton were far better off for it. Look at clubs like villa and Newcastle and say that moyes didn't do a fantastic job there. Also in regard to 8th or 9th highest wage budget, considering we are speaking about a decade of time with massive changes within the premier league I have to feel like you're pulling things from thin air.
Moyes was a catastrophe here, probably our worst ever manager. But to dismiss anything he did at Everton as average, before you even consider how they looked in May, is just being petty
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I agree with you that Moyes stagnated at Everton but in terms of when he arrived there, you're out by a year. When he moved to Everton in 2002 from Preston, they were in relegation trouble, he kept them up and went on to have a reasonable tenure there. No silverware, one top four finish, no wins at Anfield, Old Trafford, Highbury/Emirates and Stamform Bridge is a black mark on his time there.
What has what he did at United have to do with what he did at Everton?
What astounds me is someone like you trying to rewrite what actually happened because for some reason you seem to hate the bloke.
He did very well at Everton. He left them with a good squad having over achieved for years. Martinez couldn't do what he did. He came to United and was totally out of his depth. It was nothing short of disasterous. Doesn't change the fact that he'd performed well in his previous job.
I have nothing against him. He didn't work out here for now very obvious reasons. I think he might do alright at Sunderland but really I don't care either way. Im not sure why you do. He's history here.
I'd say overall he bought well. There was a few duds but generally he identified players who could step up a level.
They had a midtable budget and he generally had them higher than that. Fair play to him. He took them on more so than most managers can in the modern era.
I don't get all the hate personally. He did well at Everton. Was he spectacular? No. But he put together a decent side who performed well over a significant period of time and he left them in a better position than they were when he started. As it is, for a club like Sunderland they'd be more than happy if he could do that.
I am sorry you feel this way, however I would hazard a guess that I know perhaps a smidgen more about how a football club works than you give me credit for.
As for the financials, the Express publishes the annual turnovers and wage budgets for each club annually.
Everton spent "around" 69 million a year on wages (9th highest) (as of the latest article I can find 2014 the year after moyes left), it also had them on the 8th highest turnover. They were spending 63 million a year on wages in Moyes second to last year.
Here it is:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/apr/29/premier-league-finances-club-by-club
So lets not pretend Moyes was working with scraps at any point compared to the rest of the league.
All of that being the case, what's the point you're trying to make?
Maybe he had more to work with than other managers. But he still had to take a relegation threatened side, attract the right kind of players and build a team which to be fair to him, formed the basis of the side after he left.
Countless managers have failed in the PL. Very few survive as long as he did and perform as consistently. Does this make him a great manager? No. But it affords him a certain amount of credit in the eyes of most fans I suspect - especially fans of clubs who don't have success and who'd be quite happy to see their side perform like his Everton team.
Pardew... Obscurity... Did you even watch the FA cup final?!
Moyes managerial tact is simar to Van Gaals idiotic philosophy. Possession management, little or no risks, with little or no reward. He's the driving miss daisy of management. At least Pardew, Curbishley & O'Leary took chances. Moyes is so middle of the road he has a white line down his back.
As for the finances, that's already been discussed. He had a big enough budget over his decade to achieve more than he did, he just lacked the tactical nous, the balls and the brains.
This all came from someone describing him as 'a very good manager' - a statement with which I disagree & will fervently disagree no matter how petty it seems & no matter how much you try to rationalise the amount of time spent in a job, as being a measure of how good you are at it.
For pardew read roeder, my mistake.
Sorry my problem is with your summary of his Everton tenure. It's absurd to suggest it was underachieving in any way
Still can't believe he was Utd manager.
OK, I'll take your point if you can name me one Moyes achievement other than finishing 4th, once, in a decade at Everton?
Its like saying Dean Windass was a good player just because he was in the game so long. Put him beside Ryan Giggs - who has ACTUAL achievements - & he looks more than average.
We clearly have differing opinions of what achievements are & that's fine.
Thankfully Fergie didn't share your view on achievements or we'd still be chasing Liverpool's tails.
Who said anything about length being the key success. You tell me what achievement should have been expected off him in that time with that team, from where he took over. Genuinely interested to know what this big failure is
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I am happy for him. He deserved a second chance in the Premier League, as it was not easy to replace Sir Alex. I am seeing he is having a great pre-season.
For me, to be judged as 'very good' at something, you have to have something to show for it other than persistent mediocrity. Like I said before, he stagnated at Everton. No cup wins, no real improvment - his first full season in charge Vs his last, show only 1 league place & 4points improvement.... Not a lot to show for a decade of planning, developing and investing.
I don't want to labour the point any further, we clearly disagree on Moyes and to be honest I'd rather focus on how I have genuine excitement going into a season since the ill-fated Dave took charge 3 years ago. Always good to debate a point tho, cheers!
Success is, surely, relative. That wouldn't be acceptable at a lot of clubs, but persistent top half in the PL would be more than acceptable for a lot of teams, let alone a shot at European qualification year on year over a decade or so.
Bottom line for me - it's easy to criticise but the reality is football management is a very tough job. Most managers don't last long at a club, many don't have long careers.
There can only be a few top class managers. From the rest those that have long careers and relative success in a job that routinely spits people out deserve some credit for it in my opinion.
Moyes is a good manager and did a good job at Everton in terms of league finishes they were very consistent but he was hardly working miracles at the same time. They had the 8th-9th highest wage bill during his time there and more often than not finished 6th-8th, thats where his strength was and he did it well over a long periiod. Better than most managers in that decade.
The parts of his time there which definitely were disappointing considering the players they had, their style of play, the time he had to build a good side and the resources available to him were cup wins and european qualification.
In his 11 years there they competed in 27 cup competitions and won 0 getting to only one final thats poor which ever way you look at it, especially in a period where the likes of Wigan, Portsmouth, Spurs, Birmingham, Swansea and Middlesbrough all managed a cup win. I mean lets be honest in 11 attempts at the League cup he should have won at least one, he never even got to one final.
They also only qualified for Europe 4 times in 11 seasons, it would be unfair to expect him to qualify for the Champions League of course but to only qualify for the Uefa cup 4 times in 11 years is hardly a fantastic record. When those two factors are taken into consideration the shine is really taken off the job he did at Everton. It's definitely fair to say he stagnated in my opinion.
I like to imagine the voiceover for the promo when Sunderland play City:
"Moyes. Guardiola. One manager singlehandedly crushed Barcelona. The other led them to glory. Two former Spanish bosses square off in the battle for tactical supremacy at The Stadium of Light in The Greatest League In The World. Between them they boast six league titles, two Champions League trophies, and one Community Shield. Sunderland v City is next on Sky Sports."
"Moyes. Guardiola. One manager singlehandedly crushed Barcelona. The other led them to glory. Two former Spanish bosses square off in the battle for tactical supremacy at The Stadium of Light in The Greatest League In The World. Between them they boast six league titles, two Champions League trophies, and one Community Shield. Sunderland v City is next on Sky Sports."
good manager but nothing more.
how on earth he got the united job, well that was the board's and sir alex's biggest mistake.
still good to see him back in the premier league, just so he can now talk no more about his stint at old trafford and take januzaj on loan this season.
Seemed relaxed at his news conference. Contrast that to his first outing at OT. Looks younger as well.