Day 15: Japan vs Poland, Senegal vs Colombia, England vs Belgium, Panama vs Tunisia

bosnian_red said:
Wouldn't really say it's a logical choice. It sends a bad message IMO, even if you do qualify. Telling your players "don't try to score against an unmotivated side, we'll hope nothing happens in the other game". Though tbf the manager sent a bad message right from the start by resting so many players in a game that actually mattered for them. Got away with both decisions rather then both being good decisions IMO.
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More than our valid arguments, I know we're on solid ground because, on an issue of football fairness, we're on the other side of Cal - which is usually the right side

Berbaclass said:
Call it whatever you want, by definition it’s just not cowardly.

It takes courage to take the gamble they did in the first place, irregardless of whether you consider it to just or not.

It’s Mourinho level pragmatism.
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We just have different definitions of cowardly then. I'd classify lot of Mourinho's pragmatism (especially last year) as pure cowardice.
 
Uniquim said:
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Idiotic.
 
bosnian_red said:
Like I said, they can go and do that, I'm not too bothered. From someone who has been a neutral the entire world cup and pretty much just forming a preference every game as the world cup has gone on, that alone is more then enough for me to hope they get absolutely battered in their next game. Everyone's allowed an opinion, mine is that that was cowardly football from them and that they got away with it, and in should no way be praised for it. Praise them for their first 2 games, sure. Not today though.
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Hopefully Japan don't get battered and win on a few incorrect VAR calls so people continue slating it. I can see you having an epic meltdown then
 
Judas said:
We deserve to lose with that team. Shame Gareth talked up how important momentum is and then puts out that selection.
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It's a rotated side in a game that doesn't really mean too much, against a fully rotated Belgium side. It's fine. Just depends on the attitude and how they set out to play. Finishing 2nd has it's benefits but also finishing top now has it's benefits too, playing Japan instead of Colombia. Biggest benefit here is being able to rest their players.
 
Not convinced there's enough talent to get the ball to Vardy and Rashford in time for them to be effective.
 
VP said:
We just have different definitions of cowardly then. I'd classify lot of Mourinho's pragmatism (especially last year) as pure cowardice.
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Cowardly by definition is a lack of courage. Japan took a big risk there which in not indicative of a lack of courage. It indicates the exact opposite.

It’s obviously our definitions of pragmatic that are different too. But this is not a thread concerning Mourinho or his tactics so I’ll refrain from going any further on that issue.
 
VP said:
Both throwing the game and going for a draw were risks - they chose the coward's option by banking on Colombia.



Exactly! I don't understand how anyone can't see this.
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Exaggerations all around. It's pragmatic not cowardly.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
Hopefully Japan don't get battered and win on a few incorrect VAR calls so people continue slating it. I can see you having an epic meltdown then
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:rolleyes: Wouldn't be VARs fault though, it'd be on the refs being shit. So yeah, move along.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's a rotated side in a game that doesn't really mean too much, against a fully rotated Belgium side. It's fine. Just depends on the attitude and how they set out to play. Finishing 2nd has it's benefits but also finishing top now has it's benefits too, playing Japan instead of Colombia. Biggest benefit here is being able to rest their players.
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But it's an 8, 9 day rest. Excessive, no?
 
Only thing im annoyed about is a Japan equaliser would give me a huge lead on Superbru
 
Berbaclass said:
Cowardly by definition is a lack of courage. Japan took a big risk there which in not indicative of a lack of courage. It indicates the exact opposite.

It’s obviously our definitions of pragmatic that are different too. But this is not a thread concerning Mourinho or his tactics so I’ll refrain from going any further on that issue.
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Risk =/= courage. I'd say courage is taking matters into your own hands and believing in yourself. Cowardly is not believing in yourself and letting someone else take care of something for you. Has nothing to do with the risk involved.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's a rotated side in a game that doesn't really mean too much, against a fully rotated Belgium side. It's fine. Just depends on the attitude and how they set out to play. Finishing 2nd has it's benefits but also finishing top now has it's benefits too, playing Japan instead of Colombia. Biggest benefit here is being able to rest their players.
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Clearly trying to finish 2nd.
 
Drawfull said:
But it's an 8, 9 day rest. Excessive, no?
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This would've been their 3rd game in 10 days, with a 3 or 4 day rest for the next game, and then a 2 or 3 day rest for the quarter final, and then a 2 or 3 day rest for the semi final, and then another 2 or 3 day rest for the final. That's loads of games in a short space of time, basically playing every 3.5 days. Having a rest day for the 3rd world cup game can be a massive benefit to the fitness of them for the knockout stages.
 
bosnian_red said:
This would've been their 3rd game in 10 days, with a 3 or 4 day rest for the next game, and then a 2 or 3 day rest for the quarter final, and then a 2 or 3 day rest for the semi final, and then another 2 or 3 day rest for the final. That's loads of games in a short space of time, basically playing every 3.5 days. Having a rest day for the 3rd world cup game can be a massive benefit to the fitness of them for the knockout stages.
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Fair point, didn't think of it like that. Still think it will backfire though :angel:
 
bosnian_red said:
Risk =/= courage. I'd say courage is taking matters into your own hands and believing in yourself. Cowardly is not believing in yourself and letting someone else take care of something for you. Has nothing to do with the risk involved.
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It kinda does though :lol:

Taking the risk they did requires courage which means it’s obviously not a cowardly act.

They didn’t make the decision because they were afraid they came to the conclusion thinking about it logically which is just being pragmatic and not cowardly.

What about that don’t you get?
 
After the earlier results won't both teams be hoping to win to avoid Colombia? Can't see either team settling for second place.
 
Drawfull said:
Fair point, didn't think of it like that. Still think it will backfire though :angel:
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Its a risk but in this case I think it's perfectly fine. Don't think anyone will lose form, the overall squad gets happier for getting a WC start, and their opposition has fully rotated too. Think it's good for the moral of the squad. If he put out the same 11, I can imagine many of the squad players would be upset at not getting a chance even in a dead rubber game.
 
All England have to do to finish second is to pick up a bunch of yellows. Not too difficult is it, Dele Alli woild help out.
 
Smart play by Japan. It is a probability game. Without going into the actual math, consider:

1. What is more likely - that Senegal score in the last 15 min or that they don't? Clearly the latter.

2. Japan takes advantage of this (significant) statistical edge by not conceding. If they push for a goal, they increase their chances for scoring but also for conceding, I would say ~equally in both directions, thus loosing the edge that 1 gives them.

Probability for success by Japan roughly (neglecting rare events like a team scoring more than 2 in the last 15 min):

P = P(S not scoring)P(P not scoring) + P(J scoring)P(P not scoring) = P(P not scoring)*[P(S not scoring) + P(J scoring)]

Clearly P(not scoring) is dominant and it is inversely related is P(J scoring), which is < P(S not scoring).

Here you have it. Smart by Japan!
 
I can see the reasoning behind rotating the team but it is a risk, its not really a dead rubber end of season type game, there's momentum to carry through to the next round and a choice in who they will face, if Belgium put out a full strength team and won 5-0 I can't see that doing much for English confidence, then again if they rotate and still get a win it's a great confidence booster for the whole squad.

I guess there is no right or wrong. Shearer and Ferdinand couldn't agree on this the other night either.
 
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