In terms of performances, yes.
Does anybody else think Smalling & Jones get too much stick?
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Oh, really?
He was trying to stop players from scoring. Smalling had no pressure at all.
Do you want to make a poll between who, out of the two were the best defender?
They've both reached comical levels of injuries and for players who were heralded as the future of united and England's defence they have (so far) not delivered. Its disappointing because when given a run in the team both have looked top class but an inordinate amount of time on the treatment table makes them easy targets for cheap shots from fans and media alike.
That would be a pretty dumb poll, everybody with sense knows Vidic and Rio were better than Smalling and Jones.
Are you implying that that is the only standard of centre back that should play for United? If that's the case, why stop at CB?
Let's apply that logic everywhere. Since Keane>Herrera, let's sell Herrera. Cantona>Mata, let's ditch Mata.
Beyond that, are you implying that Vidic and Ferdinand never made mistakes under no pressure?
What a ridiculous thing to nitpick on.
I would have to agree on the fitness issues. Jones especially is too brittle but for people to go on as though they're mediocre players is, quite frankly, absurd.
It's almost like Chris Smalling wasn't our player of year last year.
I think up until this season Smalling has been very good and didn't he win our player of the year last season ? I think it's now proven that for Smalling to be at his best he needs a ball playing partner so Lindelof or Laporte or Varane could be a great partnership if we were to sign one of those two.
With Jones it's a case of him switching off or being injured but I think this has been his best season for us which coincides with him only playing as centre back, I think most people have said that he needs to play in one position and go from there which this season he has and his latest injury is unfortunate although he's still only 25 which is young for a centre back.
I don't see either becoming world class but then how many world class centre backs are actually out there ? I think both get more stick than they deserve as neither are the new Ferdinand or Vidic as they were heralded when they arrived but both are good centre backs and think they deserve at least another season under Jose.
With Jones it's a case of him switching off or being injured but I think this has been his best season for us which coincides with him only playing as centre back, I think most people have said that he needs to play in one position and go from there which this season he has and his latest injury is unfortunate although he's still only 25 which is young for a centre back.
I don't see either becoming world class but then how many world class centre backs are actually out there ? I think both get more stick than they deserve as neither are the new Ferdinand or Vidic as they were heralded when they arrived but both are good centre backs and think they deserve at least another season under Jose.
Jones while unlucky has reached comical status now, it's going to be hard to lose that tag. His performances range from top class to bizarre which doesn't help him.
Smalling is a very good defender, but his coordination is a massive pitfall in his game. He struggles to sort his legs out quickly and he's so uncomfortable on the ball. Purely defending though he's fantastic in the box.
If i had to keep 1 it would be Smalling all day long.
Smalling is a very good defender, but his coordination is a massive pitfall in his game. He struggles to sort his legs out quickly and he's so uncomfortable on the ball. Purely defending though he's fantastic in the box.
If i had to keep 1 it would be Smalling all day long.
good points you make; sometimes footballers are penalised for the way they look- they both don't have the thunderous fierceness of a Vidic, Stam, Campbell, Terry, or the aesthetic yet athletic one of a Ferdinand, Adams, etc.... I think they are both fine defenders just unlucky with injuries which, unfortunately may end up hindering their careers seriously
None of us talk about them like they are 18. You are making up arguments we've never used to easily counter them. We've explained their strengths and limitations and judged them good enough for MU based on performances and record for the club and the alternative options.
The reason they have failed to build a steady partnership, is because Jones is injured very very often and that is indeed a problem. He can't be relied for a whole season, hence we brought Bailly in. Not sure how that reflects badly on Smalling though, he's been a mainstay in our defence for the last 3.5 years. A defence that has been one of the best in the league and Europe. He was POTY last season.
Smalling does not compare favourably to Bonucci, no arguments there, but the latter is probably the best CB in the world atm. Do any of our forwards compare favourably to Messi, Suarez, Ronaldo? No. In fact the gulf in class/performances between Smalling and Bonucci pales in comparison to that of our forwards vs the best in the world (like massive, MASSIVE gulf). Ship them all out then, useless the lot of them
Not silly, but its Smalling 7th seasons here and Jones 6th seasons, yet they cant put more than good peformance consistently for just half a season. Jones always injury, Smalling apart from first half of last season, his performance always on and off.
United defence looks good in number because of the system that LVG and Mou deploy to make it up from lack of quality, and De Gea. Pretty sure, if it wasn't for De Gea, we will concede more
Do you think Rooney has leadership? Surely? Its like the armband he got because token of gratitude for his decade of service,
I watched the games and yet Smalling always had clumsy mistake when he sees ball around him even not under pressure.
He wasn't. De Gea was the POTY, Smalling was the player's player of the year
You're saying a lot but there is no real substance here for me. "His performances are always on and off"? What do you mean by that, I can only recall one really bad performance this season and that was against Chelsea, where he played with a broken toe. Do you mind citing other games this season where he's been "off"? Preferably more than just one or two game.
I asked this question to another poster that raised this point, doesn't every team with a good defence set up in a way that makes them strong defensively? Do you really think Bayern, Juve, Chelsea, Atletico just go out and play and let the defence sort it itself out?
Also, I never understand these De gea comments. You do realise that he is part of the defence and that he is not doing us a favour by making saves? It's actually his job to do that. What he gets paid to do.
Also, anybody who watched us last season and this season could tell that our reliance on De Gea making saves has reduced substantially.
Do I think Rooney has leadership qualities? Uh...yeah I do. How is that even questionable? He was voted by the players to be their captain. He is captain of the England national team. What makes you think he isn't a leader?
The last part about Smalling is simply untrue. He makes mistakes, like every other player but to act like he is some bumbling idiot is not something I am willing to entertain.
One is voted by the fans, the other by the players. Not sure why one gets more merit than the other in some people's minds. Both of them don't mean too much if we're being honest, but if anything I value the opinion of the players more than that of the fans. Smalling was very good last season, by almost universal agreement of fans/players/pundits. Now some people want to ship him off because he's not Bonucci or something.
None of us talk about them like they are 18. You are making up arguments we've never used to easily counter them. We've explained their strengths and limitations and judged them good enough for MU based on performances and record for the club and the alternative options.
The reason they have failed to build a steady partnership, is because Jones is injured very very often and that is indeed a problem. He can't be relied for a whole season, hence we brought Bailly in. Not sure how that reflects badly on Smalling though, he's been a mainstay in our defence for the last 3.5 years. A defence that has been one of the best in the league and Europe. He was POTY last season.
Smalling does not compare favourably to Bonucci, no arguments there, but the latter is probably the best CB in the world atm. Do any of our forwards compare favourably to Messi, Suarez, Ronaldo? No. In fact the gulf in class/performances between Smalling and Bonucci pales in comparison to that of our forwards vs the best in the world (like massive, MASSIVE gulf). Ship them all out then, useless the lot of them
Yes most do. I lost count of how many times I've read that Jones and Smalling need time and how they will be great next season. In my opinion we need to admit that this is not going to happen. Jones will never be reliable because he's a crock. Smalling simply lack the quality to be a regular first teamer at a club like Manchester United and at age 27 he should be leading the defence rather then follow orders.
Bonucci is a great defender but he's the Messi or the Ronaldo of defenders. Some might even say that he's not even Juventus best CB (ie Chiellini is quite a handful himself). Being a defender is physically taxing on the body and older players are kept simply to transmit experience to the others. If Rojo/Smalling can't do that then why the feck are still there in the first place.
Replying to the bold:
I have not read anybody on these forums or this thread say "They will be great next season" Seriously.
Who does Smalling follow orders from?
Also, you do know that communication on the field is vital in every position, especially amongst the back 4 and that it's not only the leader that should talking to teammates?
Being a footballer is taxing on the body and how is this relevant to the thread?
Are you suggesting that Smalling and Jones (Rojo?) are too old to be playing for United?
Replying to the bold:
I have not read anybody on these forums or this thread say "They will be great next season" Seriously.
Who does Smalling follow orders from?
Being a footballer is taxing on the body and how is this relevant to the thread?
Are you suggesting that Smalling and Jones (Rojo?) are too old to be playing for United?
God knows how many times I've read that Smalling would do so well if he's got a leader to keep him in check. Well, he's 27 years old. Its about time he becomes that leader himself.
If we need an experienced head to nanny Rojo or Smalling then we might as well let them go, bring in that experienced head and surround him with young defenders. These young players would have more fuel left in their tank to do the donkey work + they might actually have the potential to be world class defenders.
Have you read that from actual people who's opinion's are credible and worth listening to? Say managers, coaching staff, pundits? If so can you provide examples, because I certainly haven't heard this. Jose heaps praise on all of our defenders, and plays Smalling over every other defender particularly when fit.
Or have you just read this from people on this forum?
I am referring to posts in the forum
Regarding Mourinho, no responsible manager would criticize his defenders in the middle of the season especially since he needs them. The proof of the pudding will occur in summer, when he will have the opportunity to buy new players.
TBF I would keep Smalling and Rojo for another year although I think that Jones's time is up. He's too injury prone to be of any use to us.
We're all as clueless as each other on here. None of us know anything, we're all just speculating and wasting time at work or wherever.
How does what people say on here reflect on the players actual ability in real life? It shouldn't.
Mourinho has criticised our attack many times, that's where we need the most improvement. He's criticised our LB position many times, he's put pressure on individuals like Martial, Mhiki, Rashford, Pogba, Blind, Darmian, Rooney while praising Valencia, Jones, Rojo, Smalling, Carrick, DDG etc.
So again, that doesn't reflect real life.
I agree on Jones being injury prone unfortunately, I do quite like him but I'd like to see Tuanzebe given his chances next year.
The stick is because they are victims of the hype. The hype has created unnecessary expectations. Frankly, all English players are vastly overrated
As said already, the proof in the pudding will come in summer. I'd be very surprised if he doesn't sign a CB TBH.
Tuanzebe need regular first team football to develop + he need a well settled defense with players around him with enough brains and talent to help him develop.
I strongly suspect you've been going through archived threads. I've not seen a single person say anything of the sorts this season or last.
Firstly, you're the only person I've heard who seems to be saying that Rojo and Smalling need an experienced partner, so there's that.
Secondly, who are "these young players." Do you mind putting names of potential candidates you would like to see and why you think they would be better than what we currently have?
It's becoming maddening to see people posting in here, wanting to break a system that works with players that work and saying we need to replace them with generic terms like, "ball playing centre backs" or "young centre backs"
Who are these amazing young, ball playing centre backs you guys keep banging on about? The ones that we so crucially need? Can we put some faces and names behind the terms that are being thrown out?
a- I know what I've read.
b- I think we've been linked with one already ie Gimenez. He's a top quality CB, whose done very well in Spain and is considered as one of the most promising defenders in the world. Rugani is quite a handful too.Seriously mate, its not that hard to be better then Jones, Rojo and Smalling.
I didn't deny that we'll go for a CB, I think that's more to do with Jones' injury proneness than Mourinho not being happy with the defenders we have.
Considering the defensive players have been on the receiving end of most of his praise.
I'm fine with the footballers but they are too injured, so I wouldn't count on them. I'm also fine with Bailly and Rojo being our starters.
If Mourinho is planning to build his defense around Smalling and Rojo then rest assured that he would not spend alot £££ for the new guy. We've got other positions to strengthen and he'll probably aim for someone whose young and won't cost us alot. If he spends alot of money on a new defender then the chances are that he wants him as a first teamer.
Most people here probably watch only United and perhaps PL games. If you watch United 50-60 times a season, you can give an opinion on United players, but I think it’s fair that posters can’t give you transfer options. That’s the backroom staff’s job, and there’s already too many who’ve seen 1-2 games or worse, some youtube clips, and go all ”Player X would solve all our issues”. Again, not saying that Jones and Smalling should definitely be sold, just defending those who can’t give you transfer targets who could improve the team. Not all watch enough Spanish, Italian, German, French, UEFA footie to be able to do the scouts’ work.
Not necessarily, the market has changed.
Bailly cost ~£30m and he was seen as unknown and out of the blue. Stones cost £50m and I don't think he's better than any of our defenders (I don't care about ball playing ability as a defining feature a defender needs, personally). Otamendi cost ~£40m and he was seen as La Liga's best defender, and again I personally don't think he's better than what we have.
If we want the Gimenez's, Manolas', even the Van Dijk's & Toby's we'll have to shell out £40m at least.
If we buy Gimenez, Manolas or even Van Dijk or Toby then rest assured that he's aiming to play them week in week out. I am aware that the market changed however no club would spend 30m-40m for a 3rd-4th choice defender unless they are stupid
Well you've got a point. We aren't good enough in most positions, although those you picked are exaggerating the point. Should we not aim for better seeing as we're clearly not good enough?
Perhaps, but not for the level we should be aiming to get back to. They are far too inconsistent and injury prone.
Kind of like how John Stones is considered one of the most promising defenders right now? I fear for the sanity of this place if a young defender was to come in and actually make real mistakes whilst settling in, seeing as how most seem to think that Smalling/Jones are walking calamities despite the facts saying otherwise.
Most people here probably watch only United and perhaps PL games. If you watch United 50-60 times a season, you can give an opinion on United players, but I think it’s fair that posters can’t give you transfer options. That’s the backroom staff’s job, and there’s already too many who’ve seen 1-2 games or worse, some youtube clips, and go all ”Player X would solve all our issues”. Again, not saying that Jones and Smalling should definitely be sold, just defending those who can’t give you transfer targets who could improve the team. Not all watch enough Spanish, Italian, German, French, UEFA footie to be able to do the scouts’ work.
I hear what you're saying but I don't think it's fair. I think it's idiotic. How can you tell how good/bad your players really are relative to others when you don't even know who those others are?
People are wanting competent, proven United players to be sold in order to buy fancy unknown players who they aren't even sure exist. That's absurd to me
How is it exaggerating the point? You've compared Smalling to one of United's greatest centre backs. What's the difference between that and me comparing Mata/Herrera to Cantona and Keane?
Secondly, you're the one who thinks we aren't good enough. It's certainly not "clear" to me.
Least goals conceded in the top 5 leagues
1) Bayern 13 goals (0.52 goals per game)
2) Juventus 19 goals (0.66 per game)
3) Villareal 20 goals (0.71 per game)
4) PSG 21 goals (0.7 per game)
5) Chelsea 21 goals (0.75 per game)
5=) Totenham 21 goals (0.75 per game)
7) Atletico Madrid 23 goals (0.82 per game)
8) Manchester United 23 goals (0.85 per game)
2) Juventus 19 goals (0.66 per game)
3) Villareal 20 goals (0.71 per game)
4) PSG 21 goals (0.7 per game)
5) Chelsea 21 goals (0.75 per game)
5=) Totenham 21 goals (0.75 per game)
7) Atletico Madrid 23 goals (0.82 per game)
8) Manchester United 23 goals (0.85 per game)
The only thing "clearly not good enough" about this Manchester United side are our attackers and their shameful chance conversion rate.
Kind of like how John Stones is considered one of the most promising defenders right now? I fear for the sanity of this place if a young defender was to come in and actually make real mistakes whilst settling in, seeing as how most seem to think that Smalling/Jones are walking calamities despite the the facts saying otherwise.
I hear what you're saying but I don't think it's fair. I think it's idiotic. How can you tell how good/bad your players really are relative to others when you don't even know who those others are?
People are wanting competent, proven United players to be sold in order to buy fancy unknown players who they aren't even sure exist. That's absurd to me
How is it exaggerating the point? You've compared Smalling to one of United's greatest centre backs. What's the difference between that and me comparing Mata/Herrera to Cantona and Keane?
Secondly, you're the one who think we aren't good enough. It's certainly not "clear" to me.
Least goals conceded in the top 5 leagues
We have the defensive record of a side that should be challenging for the title. There is little room for improvement defensively.1) Bayern 13 goals (0.52 goals per game)
2) Juventus 19 goals (0.66 per game)
3) Villareal 20 goals (0.71 per game)
4) PSG 21 goals (0.7 per game)
5) Chelsea 21 goals (0.75 per game)
5=) Totenham 21 goals (0.75 per game)
7) Atletico Madrid 23 goals (0.82 per game)
8) Manchester United 23 goals (0.85 per game)
The only thing "clearly not good enough" about this Manchester United side are our attackers and their shameful chance conversion rate.
50m for Stones is nuts and kind of shows how overrated British defenders are.
No. They should be no way near a utd starting 11, squad players at best. A title winning or a top team wouldn't have these two as their first choice centre back pairing
I hear what you're saying but I don't think it's fair. I think it's idiotic. How can you tell how good/bad your players really are relative to others when you don't even know who those others are?
People are wanting competent, proven United players to be sold in order to buy fancy unknown players who they aren't even sure exist. That's absurd to me
Well, I think it’s even more "idiotic" to suggest potential signings based on basically nothing. Let’s agree to disagree on this.
We paid 30 million for Rio in 2002 which was probably more nuts at the time yet turned out to be value for money. Give the kid time and we can judge in a few years whether he was worth it or not.
Rio was 10 times the player Stones is.
Your point being what exactly?