Does anybody else think Smalling & Jones get too much stick?

DizeeGorilla20 said:
How is it exaggerating the point? You've compared Smalling to one of United's greatest centre backs. What's the difference between that and me comparing Mata/Herrera to Cantona and Keane?

Secondly, you're the one who thinks we aren't good enough. It's certainly not "clear" to me.

Least goals conceded in the top 5 leagues
1) Bayern 13 goals (0.52 goals per game)
2) Juventus 19 goals (0.66 per game)
3) Villareal 20 goals (0.71 per game)
4) PSG 21 goals (0.7 per game)
5) Chelsea 21 goals (0.75 per game)
5=) Totenham 21 goals (0.75 per game)
7) Atletico Madrid 23 goals (0.82 per game)
8) Manchester United 23 goals (0.85 per game)
​
We have the defensive record of a side that should be challenging for the title. There is little room for improvement defensively.

The only thing "clearly not good enough" about this Manchester United side are our attackers and their shameful chance conversion rate.
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I think we're not good enough over the entirety of the pitch, yeah. That doesn't mean I don't think Mata and Herrera are very useful players.

I mean, it's obvious we aren't good enough unless you're happy fecking about fighting for top 4. That's demonstrated both on the pitch regularly (specially in attack and defence, regardless of the stats), as well as our league position.
Before anyone blows their wad, seeing how people love to do so on here lately, I know we're a work in progress, and I know sorting the attack is priority.
 
DizeeGorilla20 said:
Your point being what exactly?
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My point is that Stones transfer is nuts. First of all the biggest hint in choosing a defender lie in the name ie a defender must be able to defend. Sure its nice to have defenders who are able to pass the ball, but they must, first and foremost, know how to defend. Stones is low EPL club level in terms of defending. You don't spend 50m on a glorified and slighly improved version of Paddy Mcnair wouldn't you?

Now its my turn to ask. Do you think that they would spent the same amount of money they did if the guy was German or French? I much doubt it.
 
DizeeGorilla20 said:
You're saying a lot but there is no real substance here for me. "His performances are always on and off"? What do you mean by that, I can only recall one really bad performance this season and that was against Chelsea, where he played with a broken toe. Do you mind citing other games this season where he's been "off"? Preferably more than just one or two game.


I asked this question to another poster that raised this point, doesn't every team with a good defence set up in a way that makes them strong defensively? Do you really think Bayern, Juve, Chelsea, Atletico just go out and play and let the defence sort it itself out?
Also, I never understand these De gea comments. You do realise that he is part of the defence and that he is not doing us a favour by making saves? It's actually his job to do that. What he gets paid to do.

Also, anybody who watched us last season and this season could tell that our reliance on De Gea making saves has reduced substantially.



Do I think Rooney has leadership qualities? Uh...yeah I do. How is that even questionable? He was voted by the players to be their captain. He is captain of the England national team. What makes you think he isn't a leader?

The last part about Smalling is simply untrue. He makes mistakes, like every other player but to act like he is some bumbling idiot is not something I am willing to entertain.
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You would think he was a bramble level cb
 
devilish said:
My point is that Stones transfer is nuts. First of all the biggest hint in choosing a defender lie in the name ie a defender must be able to defend. Sure its nice to have defenders who are able to pass the ball, but they must, first and foremost, know how to defend. Stones is low EPL club level in terms of defending. You don't spend 50m on a glorified and slighly improved version of Paddy Mcnair wouldn't you?
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Well according to most in this thread, is seems like a defending centre back like Smalling is a thing of the past. Apparently, nowadays, all you need to do is be a ball player to be a great CB :wenger:.

Sarcasm aside, you do realise he is 22 years old right and that he has many years to develop as a player? Give him time, allow him to make mistakes, learn and be a young player. All I'm saying is, let's judge whether or not he was worth it in a few years.


devilish said:
Now its my turn to ask. Do you think that they would spent the same amount of money they did if the guy was German or French? I much doubt it.
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I don't see what nationality has to do with anything. We spent 89 million on a 23 year old Frenchman not too long ago.

So to answer your question, I have no reason to believe the fee would have been any different if he was German or French.
 
devilish said:
a- I know what I've read.
b- I think we've been linked with one already ie Gimenez. He's a top quality CB, whose done very well in Spain and is considered as one of the most promising defenders in the world. Rugani is quite a handful too.Seriously mate, its not that hard to be better then Jones, Rojo and Smalling.
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Rugani and Gimenez have something in common and that is playing alongside some of the best cb's, who are also great leaders would their performances at Juve and Madrid translate here without their normal cb partners
 
DizeeGorilla20 said:
Well according to most in this thread, is seems like a defending centre back like Smalling is a thing of the past. Apparently, nowadays, all you need to do is be a ball player to be a great CB :wenger:.

Sarcasm aside, you do realise he is 22 years old right and that he has many years to develop as a player? Give him time, allow him to make mistakes, learn and be a young player. All I'm saying is, let's judge whether or not he was worth it in a few years.



I don't see what nationality has to do with anything. We spent 89 million on a 23 year old Frenchman not too long ago.

So to answer your question, I have no reason to believe the fee would have been any different if he was German or French.
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I am not a big fan of Smalling but I'd take Smalling over Stones every frigging time. Smalling decision making is a bit meah and he's clumbsy with the ball but at least he knows how to defend. For 50m you expect more then a defender who can only pass the ball irrespective of one's age.

Nationality has a lot to do with it because clubs have homegrown quotas to fill. There so little talent in the UK and when someone shows a hint of it + he's available then clubs will often throw loads of millions at him. I bet if Kane is suddenly available (I like Kane) he'll easily beat the 100m mark
 
flappyjay said:
Rugani and Gimenez have something in common and that is playing alongside some of the best cb's, who are also great leaders would their performances at Juve and Madrid translate here without their normal cb partners
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I hate to repeat myself but let do it one more time. If at age 27 Smalling and Rojo cant lead the defense then WTF are they being kept?
 
devilish said:
I hate to repeat myself but let do it one more time. If at age 27 Smalling and Rojo cant lead the defense then WTF are they being kept?
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Every older played don't have to be leaders.

Saying that we need someone who knows a thing or 2 about organizing defense, doesn't matter if it's young Gimenez. All the best CBs in the world are signed at young age by their respective clubs.
 
devilish said:
I am not a big fan of Smalling but I'd take Smalling over Stones every frigging time. Smalling decision making is a bit meah and he's clumbsy with the ball but at least he knows how to defend. For 50m you expect more then a defender who can only pass the ball irrespective of one's age.

Nationality has a lot to do with it because clubs have homegrown quotas to fill. There so little talent in the UK and when someone shows a hint of it + he's available then clubs will often throw loads of money at it. I bet if Kane is suddenly available (I like Kane) he'll easily beat the 100m mark
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To be fair, if that is indeed the case (They need to meet a quota) I think it's a valid reason for Everton increasing their asking price.
 
roonster09 said:
Every older played don't have to be leaders.

Saying that we need someone who knows a thing or 2 about organizing defense, doesn't matter if it's young Gimenez. All the best CBs in the world are signed at young age by their respective clubs.
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Someone has to step up and lead defense. If at age 27 Smalling and Rojo can't lead or transmit their experience to defence, then we might start searching for players who will.
 
devilish said:
Someone has to step up and lead defense. If at age 27 Smalling and Rojo can't lead or transmit their experience to defence, then we might start searching for players who will.
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Like I said, not every player is capable of being leader. If it was so easy then every squad would be full of them. Agreed with your second part. Previously we had Rio, Vida, Neville, VDS who knew thing or 2 about organizing defense. Now we lack that.
 
DizeeGorilla20 said:
To be fair, if that is indeed the case (They need to meet a quota) I think it's a valid reason for Everton increasing their asking price.
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I don't blame Everton for it. If someone is stupid enough to spend 50m on him, well and good. Same with us and Fellaini. Since we were desperate to get the beanpole, then they might as well fleece us for it.

I blame Shitty for spending so much money on a defender who can barely defend and Pep who allowed 'philosophy' to get one over common sense.
 
devilish said:
I don't blame Everton for it. If someone is stupid enough to spend 50m on him, well and good. Same with us and Fellaini. Since we were desperate to get the beanpole, then they might as well fleece us for it.

I blame Shitty for spending so much money on a defender who can barely defend and Pep who allowed 'philosophy' to get one over common sense.
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Time will tell if it was a stupid move or a stroke of genius. Same with Pogba.
 
roonster09 said:
Like I said, not every player is capable of being leader. If it was so easy then every squad would be full of them. Agreed with your second part. Previously we had Rio, Vida, Neville, VDS who knew thing or 2 about organizing defense. Now we lack that.
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Well it certainly wasn’t an issue for the past 30 years. Each and every first teamer we had was expected to keep an eye on the younger players and to transmit their experience to them. Pally, Bruce and Irwin covered Gary Neville, Johnsen and Stam did the same with Wes. Rio, Vidic and Evra did the same with Jones, Smalling and co.

Many keep talking about Manchester United need for experience at the back and how that experience will rub on the younger defenders. However, if you look back it rarely really happened. Sure Gaz was able to replace Parker and we had some youths who turned up to become good squad players. However for most of the time, defensive woes were sorted with United spending big money on top quality players. These players were often not very old themselves. Stam and Vidic were around 25-26 years of age when they were signed with us while Rio was even younger than that. The only CB we signed for experience turned out to be an absolute disaster ie Laurent Blanc.

TBF we were cursed by so many injuries (the Da Silva twins, Jones, Wes etc), but if you look at the success stories (Gaz, Keane, Pique etc), what really did the spell was talent and un-interrupted regular first team football

In my opinion, United need to be more open to youths. If Mournho thinks that Gimenez is good enough then by all means, let us add him to the team. But we must be willing to give them 1-2 years of un-interrupted first team football, no ifs and no buts. At age 24-25 we should ask, are they good enough? If no then we must reconsider our plan and add new players to the mix either from our youth academy or from the outside. Meanwhile youngsters are loaned out as soon as possible. If by selling them (with a minimum fee clause for us) encourage teams to play them, by all means, do it. Id rather see us spend 10m on Keane rather then keep on insisting on 27 year olds who are clearly not good enough to be regular first teamers with us.

Being open to youths would also mean being ruthless with the first team squad. Take for example, injury prone players. What’s the point in insisting on them? We were never ever able to stop a crock from getting injured again and again so why trying? Same thing can be said about players who are clearly not good enough. Was it worth keeping Cleverley and bringing Scholes out of retirement if that meant losing Pogba and Drinkwater? Was it worth insisting on Jones rather than allowing him to go and give some space to Keane?
 
DizeeGorilla20 said:
Time will tell if it was a stupid move or a stroke of genius. Same with Pogba.
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Just ask a non-British neutral what would they prefer between spending 90m on Pogba and 50m on Stones and you’ll be surprised

Pogba is a magnificent player who had proved his talent with both Juventus and France. He’s yet to adapt to the EPL’s tempo and his decision making is still that of a 23 year old but all the ground work to succeed is there. He’s fast, he’s strong, he’s technically gifted, his passing is top notch etc.

Stones was already a defensive liability at Everton. Shitty spent 50m purely on nationality and a non-essential characteristic for a defender (ie decent long range passing)
 
Thread title should be changed to "Does anybody else think Pogba and Ibrahimovic get too much stick?" That would make more sense.

Smalling gets away with too much on here. The way people rave about him, you'd think we had a Maldini playing at the back. He wouldn't get half as much stick if he was touted as an adequate squaddie, which is all he is really.

But if he is going to be proclaimed as the best defender we have, yet play like shit, of course he's going to get stick.

Jones is a better player but just injury and gaff prone for which he does deserve some stick.
 
RedPed said:
Thread title should be changed to "Does anybody else think Pogba and Ibrahimovic get too much stick?" That would make more sense.

Smalling gets away with too much on here. The way people rave about him, you'd think we had a Maldini playing at the back. He wouldn't get half as much stick if he was touted as an adequate squaddie, which is all he is really.

But if he is going to be proclaimed as the best defender we have, yet play like shit, of course he's going to get stick.

Jones is a better player but just injury and gaff prone for which he does deserve some stick.
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How would that title make sense? Did you read the OP?
 
DizeeGorilla20 said:
How would that title make sense? Did you read the OP?
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The assertion that our defenders are put under pressure because our attackers can't finish games is just bizarre. Whether we're 2-0 down or 5-0 up, the defender's job should still be the same.

Ibrahimovic has done exactly what he was brought in to do. He's our top goalscorer and has won a lot of games for us, yet he's still not good enough for some people. Pogba hasn't set the world on fire yet, but he's played well and been unlucky in a few games. Again a lot of people want him out the side.

So in that respect it would be more relevant debating whether they get too much stick.

Smalling and Jones are just average players who do a job for United. Smalling in particular has been really shit and seems to be getting shown up nearly every time he plays at the moment. It's no surprise they're going to be getting stick.
 
RedPed said:
The assertion that our defenders are put under pressure because our attackers can't finish games is just bizarre. Whether we're 2-0 down or 5-0 up, the defender's job should still be the same.

Ibrahimovic has done exactly what he was brought in to do. He's our top goalscorer and has won a lot of games for us, yet he's still not good enough for some people. Pogba hasn't set the world on fire yet, but he's played well and been unlucky in a few games. Again a lot of people want him out the side.

So in that respect it would be more relevant debating whether they get too much stick.

Smalling and Jones are just average players who do a job for United. Smalling in particular has been really shit and seems to be getting shown up nearly every time he plays at the moment. It's no surprise they're going to be getting stick.
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Bizzare? Have you ever played 11 a side football? Can you honestly tell me that defending at 0-0 or 1-0 is exactly the same as defending at 3-0? If you think that's the case, I've gotta question your understanding of the game because that is a gross over-simplification on your part.

And yeah, Ibrahimovic has won us plenty of games but he's also cost us plenty of points. He is comfortably at the top of the league in terms of "clear cut chances missed." So the stick he gets, whilst a bit harsh from some, is totally understandable.

Pogba on the other hand has been better than most give him credit for but has had quite a few mares too. I'm willing to be patient with him as most reds are but when you're the most expensive player in the world, you're always, rightly or wrongly, going to be under increased scrutiny.
 
We have had 23 goals against us in the league this year and only Chelsea and Spurs are better with 21 goals so is defence the problem? 2015/16 season we had the best defence along with Spurs conceding 35 all season. 2014/15 we had the 3 best defensive record with 37 goals. The problem is the attacking play and that´s clear for all to see if they look at the stats, they do not lie? Are there better defenders out there than Smalling and Jones, yes I think so but they and in particular Smalling should get some respect for their work. It´s hardly their fault that we have for the last season´s been some 20 plus goals behind the other teams in scoring. Valencia-Bailiy-Smalling-Shaw is not a bad defence but of course there is always room for improvement. Wing play quality and lack of goal scorers is the problem.
 
How much 'stick' is too much?

Hard to know these days given most supporters views are either feast or famine. Last season, Smalling was lauded the best defender since Bobby Moore. This year, he's gash. A huddy who can't trap cement or string a pass.

Jones injures himself stepping down off a rug or injures others in training.

Difficulty is that I don't see the potential for improvement in either and obviously we have been spoiled by the calibre of Centre Half we have seen at United in the last thirty years.
 
I like Jones, I think he still has tremendous potential, but needs a strong and experienced CB next to him to help him develop more (and to continue to stay fit!)

For me, Smalling is a solid squad player - but there is always the chance that he will be a liability. To make it worse, you never know when this will be. At 27 I'd see him as a squad player, or look to offload.

Bailly has more potential than them both, but again needs a mature CB next to him to continue his development.
 
I think that those two got too much support all these years.
They are here 5,6 seasons and they had one good, manchester united level, season so far.

And fans were always supporting them. How many times people said " they are still young"? How many times people blame somebody else for their mistakes?
As a guest i read this forum last couple of years, especially match threads and smalling was maybe only player who couldn't make mistake( till this year).
His man scores but rooney is fault because he lost a ball in opposition half.
Rojo is fault because he allowed his player to cross.
Blind is fault because he didn't help.

The truth is that this year we all realise that they are simply not good enough for highest level. They can be squad players , don't get me wrong, but no in first 11.
They both have awful technique, they panic in defence and their positioning is bad.
How many times striker , small or big, puts himself in front of smalling or jones?

And jones is always injured too. He can be new nesta or ferdinand but he is always injured. And he will be always injured. That is obvious.

I am sorry for this rant but i thought when they came that we have new rio/vida combo for next 10 years. So my disappointment is really huge .
 
johanovic said:
We have had 23 goals against us in the league this year and only Chelsea and Spurs are better with 21 goals so is defence the problem? 2015/16 season we had the best defence along with Spurs conceding 35 all season. 2014/15 we had the 3 best defensive record with 37 goals. The problem is the attacking play and that´s clear for all to see if they look at the stats, they do not lie? Are there better defenders out there than Smalling and Jones, yes I think so but they and in particular Smalling should get some respect for their work. It´s hardly their fault that we have for the last season´s been some 20 plus goals behind the other teams in scoring. Valencia-Bailiy-Smalling-Shaw is not a bad defence but of course there is always room for improvement. Wing play quality and lack of goal scorers is the problem.
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We are yet to play Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal, City in the league, it will inflate our goals against soon and the illusion of our good defence will fade soon.
 
Ask yourself this, would you back our defenders against Barcelona in the champions league final? The aim should be to have a defence which would not be outright destroyed facing that challenge.

I don't know about other people but I have an expectation that this club should be regularly winning the league and regularly trying to win the Champions league. We've not been at that level for a while now, and even during Fergie the CL standard was dropping.

Of the 5 choices at CB we have, over the last few years seasons we've had doubts over 4 of them (Bailly can't be judged yet, not been here long enough). Out of Rojo, Blind, Smalling and Jones, a couple of these players will be the eventual backups to our defence. The other two are likely to be shipped out. At least 1 of them needs to be replaced with a defender who wouldn't embarass himself facing the Barcelona front three.
 
Given they both are now out - again - with long term injuries, they need to get sticks.





To help them walk.
 
There seems to be a Smalling or Jones camp.
 
Too much stick?
Smalling and Jones should get more stick. P.Jones especially, who can't stay fit for more than a few games.
 
Get rid of the two 'boys'.

We need players than Jose can trust weekly. You can't trust injury prone players.

For the record I've always rated both players highly, but enough is enough.
 
They're both frustrating. Jones because of the constant injuries and Smalling because of the inconsistency. Smalling's had runs of form where he's looked fantastic - most notably when he returned from getting sent off against City - but he always slides back. At this point I've had enough of both of them. Neither is a bad player but they've both had long enough to establish themselves and not done it. Get Bailly a quality partner and give Tuanzebe or Fosu-Mensah a chance as cover.

And the most crucial thing about this is that I never want to see Smalling at the centre of a back three ever again.
 
We'll soon find out. Hope Rojo and Bailly are as good as many on here say for the remainder of the season.
 
Leftback99 said:
We'll soon find out. Hope Rojo and Bailly are as good as many on here say for the remainder of the season.
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I'm concerned. Bailly is badly out of form and Rojo still doesn't convince me. I think Bailly will get back to the level he showed early in the season but the other three just aren't top level defenders.
 
Jones not so much. I can completely understand those who would want to offload him given his injury issues just won't subside.

However, Smalling was excellent last season and is still a very good defender that I guarantee we'll miss in the run-in. He's had a mediocre season by his standards but is still decent and gets criticised far too harshly.
 
Fellaini is the one who I feel gets too much stick.
 
devilish said:
Someone has to step up and lead defense. If at age 27 Smalling and Rojo can't lead or transmit their experience to defence, then we might start searching for players who will.
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To be fair, one of the younger players (Rashford I think) recently said in an interview that Smalling never stops talking when on the field. And just using our own eyes we can see that he's always pointing and yelling to his teammates.

Is he great at that job? It certainly doesn't look like it when compared to truly great leaders. But he's obviously doing a hell of a lot more to try to lead and organise the defence than any of out other defenders we have at the moment.
 
They are praised when they play well, and criticised when they play badly (from the little I have seen from their threads), so no I don't think that they get too much stick.
 
Sammyjunn said:
We are yet to play Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal, City in the league, it will inflate our goals against soon and the illusion of our good defence will fade soon.
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How can the stats of this season or last be a illusion? We can not score goals.
 
Too much stick? They would both be beaten by one if I had any say in it.
 
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