Does anybody else think Smalling & Jones get too much stick?

[DizeeGorilla20]

Loved Brown, Park & Fletch, always gave their all and were crucial in us winning several titles. Sheasy pretty much as well, although don’t find his quality as good as the other three. Guess it comes down to expectations. Ando was supposed be this crazy good talented attacking midfielder with flair, something we were crying out for. To me, he never showed that. He was inconsistent, bad decision making, terrible at shooting and finishing… To me he never fulfilled that role whereas the other 4 (or at least 3) did.

I am definitely not one of those who thinks that, far from it. I’ve defended Lingard to the hill this season, am happy to have him, Blind, Herrera, Rojo, TFM, Romero etc. in the team. I do think that we need a leader in the defence (Bailly still being young and not that vocal etc.), and I just don’t personally might not rate Smalling high enough. Again, might. Not sure. And Jones, it’s more about his injury record. If me not rating (maybe) Smalling and Ando as good enough makes me seem like a person who wants 16 world class players in the squad, well...

I just say that because they were clearly good enough to play meaningful roles across multiple seasons for our greatest manager in sides that won titles. So the facts seem to contradict what you're saying.

I do understand your point a lot better though, although I don't quite agree with it.

 

[Adisa]

We've been waiting for the penny to drop for ages. I'm of the opinion at lease one of them will leave this summer.

 

[DizeeGorilla20]

Lvg was a Double Edged sword But He was a tactically and Philosophically very good, Infact one of the greats. Pep's Philosophy 70 % is based on LVG's Principles.

Valid points, he certainly was one of the greats but his prime was in the 90's.

All this talk of philosophy and possesion is not relevant to the team currently though. Mourinho has his own way of doing things and so far I would say I prefer his style, which I think he has altered to suit United and what the fans desire.

 

[prtk0811]

We're not playing possession football (thank feck). Also Ferdinand spent half his career hoofing the ball up aimlessly. We dont need ball playing defenders. We need defenders who can defend.

Currently we are though, and Next season as well We'll Play a Mix of Posession Based and Counterattacking football.

We Should learn the lesson's of the past i:e( 2011 Wembley final and Bayern Munich Defeat in 2013 and 2010) or end up Repeating same Mistakes again in the future Crucial Matches. Holding the ball and Sheilding it form the opponent's best attacking players is important in order to limit their creativity is important when you play quality Opposition teams and Wanna play good attacking Football Rather than Keep defending under pressure.

We had a privilage to learn the Posession Based Principles of Lvg Philosophy we should absorb the knowledge going forward and Instill the Components of it in Our Game.

 

[top1whoisman]

I just say that because they were clearly good enough to play meaningful roles across multiple seasons for our greatest manager in sides that won titles. So the facts seem to contradict what you're saying.

I do understand your point a lot better though, although I don't quite agree with it.

Now that I think of it, guess it indeed has a lot to do with expectations. The other 3 came from our own academy, I didn't know what to expect. Guess I have more time and patience for academy graduates than big money signings. Park wasn't our own but he was a great servant in many roles and a true big game player.

Anderson kept the game ticking with quick passing. Can't think of other high quality attributes. You?

 

[prtk0811]

Valid points, he certainly was one of the greats but his prime was in the 90's.

All this talk of philosophy and possesion is not relevant to the team currently though. Mourinho has his own way of doing things and so far I would say I prefer his style, which I think he has altered to suit United and what the fans desire.

Mourinho when initially came got it totaly wrong in Defeats to City Chelsea and Watford, But then he realized that this squad is not built to play his way of letting opponents have the ball, This squad is built to Hold the ball and that's what he is doing so since then Till the Fa cup game Vs Chelsea after the red card or Rostov away Game.

Mourinho has just changed what Lvg was stubborn about, that is to pass backwards and sidewards and Keep the ball without Penetration Waiting for the Moment Mourinho has focussed on Passing Vertically and Direct instead of Sidewards and Backwards and Forcing the penetration with the passing range of Pogba and Direct Football of Mkh. Still 10 Draws Explains Our Offense Defense Transition is Slow, WHich will be Improved next season. But still We are Playing on Posession Itself.

 

[DizeeGorilla20]

Now that I think of it, guess it indeed has a lot to do with expectations. The other 3 came from our own academy, I didn't know what to expect. Guess I have more time and patience for academy graduates than big money signings. Park wasn't our own but he was a great servant in many roles and a true big game player.

Anderson kept the game ticking with quick passing. Can't think of other high quality attributes. You?

In my opinion his long range passing was up there with the best in the squad, struggled with intricate play around the edge of the box but he at least had the vision to see the passes.

Defensive side of his game is also massively overlooked. Although it was not the job he was brought in to do, it's a job he did pretty well. He had a relatively high number of interceptions and tackles, with a very good (74%) tackle success rate.

Not trying to paint him as the Brazilian Keane here but he certainly pulled his weight in the squad and earned every medal he won during his time at the club. Previously you mentioned his penalty in the CL final but he also stood up to take a penalty during the League Cup final. I wonder how many of our players today would have that kind of bottle outside of Pogba and Zlatan.

 

[ClosetDevil]

Bit of a counter-productive point/question I think.

Yes, our players earn relatively absurd amounts of money and a lot you could argue are being overpaid when you look at just ability, however, the fact is wages are not solely based on ability and what happens on the pitch. There are a lot more inputs that go into it but that discussion is not really relevant to this thread, I think.

I'm sorry, but it is completely relevant. If you're going to be "overpaid", or at least be paid insane wages, there are certain standards that are to be expected. This applies to all professionals. You wouldn't pay top dollar for a shitty doctor would you?

They're allowed to complain about our attack causing extra pressure on them if they want to, but Smalling and Jones are being grossly overpaid for the standards they bring to the football pitch, and are certainly receiving stick because they are just not good enough. If they're not good enough, they shouldn't complain about our attack. They need to improve it we are to improve as a team. Less finger pointing, more hustle.

 

[DizeeGorilla20]

I'm sorry, but it is completely relevant. If you're going to be "overpaid", or at least be paid insane wages, there are certain standards that are to be expected. This applies to all professionals. You wouldn't pay top dollar for a shitty doctor would you?

They're allowed to complain about our attack causing extra pressure on them if they want to, but Smalling and Jones are being grossly overpaid for the standards they bring to the football pitch, and are certainly receiving stick because they are just not good enough. If they're not good enough, they shouldn't complain about our attack. They need to improve it we are to improve as a team. Less finger pointing, more hustle.

Well they're part of the 3rd best defensive unit in the league and as somebody else pointed out the 3rd best defence in Europe behind Juve and Bayern in 2017.

We have conceded less goals than Real Madrid and Barcelona this season. Tied with Atletico on 23 goals. Atletico are considered to be defensive experts yet we're considered to be "not good enough" and need a massive overhaul. Madness.

If you wanna go on about people not earning their wages, you are barking up the wrong tree. You should be looking towards the likes of Ibrahimovic, Mata, Mkhitaryan and Martial who are the 7th "best" attacking outfit in the league. Supposedly tied with Bournemouth

 

[lysglimt]

He'll make a decent right back....compete with fosu-mensah. He ain't no Pallister, Bruce, Rio or Vidic. Jones and Smalling have potential if they ever stayed fit.

So what is it you think Bailly lacks that these guys had ? The only player who had the same potential as Bailly was Rio. Steve Bruce was too slow, and needed a really quick player next to him. Vidic had the same problem if not as much as Bruce. Pallister wasn't very good on the ball and needed someone next to him playing the ball out of defense, not to mention that he needed a couple of seasons in the P.L before he looked quality. He was actually quite average in his first season

Bailly is quicker than everyone of these, he is built like a tank. He reads the game well and he has a good technique. He lacks experience, he makes too many sloppy mistakes - but Rio had the same problem until he was in his mid 20's. To sum it up - I think you are madly wrong but everyone is entitles to an opinion!

 

[villain]

I'm sorry, but it is completely relevant. If you're going to be "overpaid", or at least be paid insane wages, there are certain standards that are to be expected. This applies to all professionals. You wouldn't pay top dollar for a shitty doctor would you?

They're allowed to complain about our attack causing extra pressure on them if they want to, but Smalling and Jones are being grossly overpaid for the standards they bring to the football pitch, and are certainly receiving stick because they are just not good enough. If they're not good enough, they shouldn't complain about our attack. They need to improve it we are to improve as a team. Less finger pointing, more hustle.

They get paid a comparatively average salary, approximately 80k a week each - so I don't see how they are 'grossly overpaid'

Sure to the average person it's 'insane' considering that's nearly 3x the average yearly salary, but in football at their age and at a club like United thats about average.
Other first team defenders at Arsenal, Chelsea, City are paid a similar amount - some being paid a lot more, with Liverpool & Spurs possibly paying theirs less but not too much less.

 

[Dir Wangem]

Smalling? Absolutely.

Jones? Nah.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Yes.

Jones, considering he's been out for so long prior to this season, has been brilliant, in my opinion. Defenders makes mistakes, but he's certainly done more good than bad this season.

Again, Smalling has had made a few mistakes, but overall has been solid. Shown why he is still our best defender.

To me, the two should still be here next season. They're far from the problem.

I don't like calling players out like some do on here, but if anything, Bailly has been our worst defender this season. Guess it's to be expected as it's his first season in the EPL. That, and he's still only young.

I personally don't think we need another defender. I'd be more than happy with Smalling, Jones, Rojo and Bailly.

 

[MadMike]

Personally, I'm very pleased with Smalling's season. He is not perfect but he's genuinely a very good defending CB. Great in the air, fast, agile, good tackling, very good anticipation and reaction times. I don't see the fuss over his occasional mistake either (honestly, he's not even made that many). Put any defender under the microscope and you'll see mistakes. Especially when you have no regular LB. I watch Tottenham who supposedly have the best defence and I see the same number of mistakes in Alderweireld and Vertongen. I watched them in CL and EL and it was a comedy of errors. I distinctly remember people having a bitchy moan about Rio or Vida back in the day, but because those were the glory days it's seen through rose tinted spectacles now.

Anyhow, the only real, genuine limitation he has is ball at feet. He's not comfortable moving with the ball or passing the ball. If he didn't have that limitation he would have been Rio 2.0, the rest of his game is equally good for me. I can live with that limitation, it's very hard to find another Rio.

Jones is extremely frustrating, primarily because he's injured so so often and as he himself has said he's not a player who can come in & out of the team, he needs a run of games to get his form. He had an excellent run in December and January and then the injuries started again. He's not as good as Smalling for me, though he is more comfortable on the ball. But the fact he is so often unavailable is a problem that cannot keep getting ignored forever. He has certainly fallen to 4th in the pecking order and should be worried about his position if he still can't keep fit under Mou's training methods.

 

[vangagal]

If both of them not Englishmen, i'm not sure so many fans will defend them. They are just not good enough for United quality. Smalling is 27 now, not sure to lable him young defender anymore. He suppose to be the leader in defence now, yet its clear to see he needs someone to make up for his weakness in defence. Jones, he just can't fit for 3 consecutive months alone in 1 season.
They are squad player though, but for team like United who aspire to be champions, United just needs someone who better quality, someone who can lead, comunicate and organise the defend in match

 

[Gerardo Islas]

I think it's due the fact that they have been here the longest. They were branded as the next Vidic and Rio, and that's the problem expectations were to high on them. As some other's have said neither Jones or Smalling have been playing long enough as CB's. I believe that it was with LVG that Smalling started as a CB, with Moyes and Fergie he was used as a RB, Jones was either injured or being played in midfield. So the problem was more a miss management other than they being really crap.

Now I see a lot rating Baily really high (above Rojo who I believe has been the best defender this season) when he has played the less and being regular lately, not the destroyer he was at the begining of the season. Also it's really funny because this kind of discussions are in every forum of every team, I used to read a lot of the Madrid forum and they complaint a lot, even with Ramos. Every fan looks with a magnifying glass to their players and worships the other's.

 

[Leftback99]

Smalling is still clearly our best centre back. Jones i've never been convinced about but he can do a job when called upon. Bailly is overrated on here because he is a new signing, Rojo has looked competent for a few games but still should have been sent off at least 3 times. As others have said though, all their mistakes get amplified because we are hopeless at the other end of the pitch.

The success of Evans and Michael Keane elsewhere are a sign of underrating our defenders, many were happy to see them go (also a sign of how bad LVG's judgement was).

 

[Zoo]

Smalling definitely does, he has shown that he can be important for us. Don't want to give Jones stick but frankly he is a myth and people have been kidding themselves about him.

 

[DizeeGorilla20]

If both of them not Englishmen, i'm not sure so many fans will defend them. They are just not good enough for United quality. Smalling is 27 now, not sure to lable him young defender anymore. He suppose to be the leader in defence now, yet its clear to see he needs someone to make up for his weakness in defence. Jones, he just can't fit for 3 consecutive months alone in 1 season.
They are squad player though, but for team like United who aspire to be champions, United just needs someone who better quality, someone who can lead, comunicate and organise the defend in match

Who is that leading out the team at Wembley in a cup final?

You know, before making this thread, I thought that the hate they got was just a bit harsh. I now know it is mostly irrational and nonsensical. Based on no facts whatsoever

 

[Oaencha]

I actually don't think Smalling and Jones get enough stick. It's unbelievable how little they've improved and how often they have been injured since joining Utd. IMO if they weren't English they would have been moved on by now.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Jones gets stick for his injuries, which although frustrating, are out of his control, Smalling gets stick for his lack of improvement with his ball control, passing, and general awkwardness, which isn't out of his control, so for me Smalling deserves it, and should be the first CB sold out the current batch.

 

[lsd]

They are nowhere near top class ..Sad to think we went from Rio and vidic to these two clowns .. For some reason they still get treated like are 19 and will improve .Smalling is 27 and if anything going backwards while Jones looked decent this season only because Rojo was covering his errors

Once he played without Rojo he looked the liability he is again. If we are to get back to the top again it sure won't be with these two in defence every week

 

[DizeeGorilla20]

They are nowhere near top class ..Sad to think we went from Rio and vidic to these two clowns .. For some reason they still get treated like are 19 and will improve .Smalling is 27 and if anything going backwards while Jones looked decent this season only because Rojo was covering his errors

Once he played without Rojo he looked the liability he is again. If we are to get back to the top again it sure won't be with these two in defence every week

 

[lsd]

Unless he got that today my point stands

 

[DizeeGorilla20]

Unless he got that today my point stands

Mind explaining how he is going backwards?

I find it tellng how not one single person slating them has actually come up with anything concrete backing up their opinions, outside of his mistake against Boro and the poor performance against Chelsea where he played with a broken toe (As if Rio & Vidic never had bad games) or even mentioned a defender we should get to replace him or Jones.

Nobody has even dared to touch on the fact that we actually have one of the best defences in the whole of Europe. Better than Barcelona and Real's.

 

[lsd]

Mind explaining how he is going backwards?

I find it tellng how not one single person slating them has actually come up with anything concrete backing up their opinions, outside of his mistake against Boro and the poor performance against Chelsea where he played with a broken toe (As if Rio & Vidic never had bad games) or even mentioned a defender we should get to replace him or Jones.

Nobody has even dared to touch on the fact that we actually have one of the best defences in the whole of Europe. Better than Barcelona and Real's.

Perhaps the biggest problem is he has always been very overrated and isn't so much going back wards now but instead showing himself to be slightly above average.

He had never impressed for any length of time .. Him ever winning any wards is a sad indication of how far we are falling.

I wouldn't put him anywhere near the top ten CBs in the premiership .I just feel we need to be aiming a lot higher than Smalling and Jones to be back on top

 

[DizeeGorilla20]

Perhaps the biggest problem is he has always been very overrated and isn't so much going back wards now but instead showing himself to be slightly above average.

He had never impressed for any length of time .. Him ever winning any wards is a sad indication of how far we are falling.

I wouldn't put him anywhere near the top ten CBs in the premiership .I just feel we need to be aiming a lot higher than Smalling and Jones to be back on top

I'm sorry but this is absolutely a case of revisionism. He was being called "Smalldini" by fans last season. He was immense.

Jamie freaking Carragher at one stage said he was the best defender in the PL last season. Not that his opinion is gold or anything but for him to say that, there must have been something good about his performances.

I disagree with absolutely everything you have typed. Our defence is as good as anybody's in the Premier League and across Europe at this point in time.

 

[Moonred]

I'm sorry but this is absolutely a case of revisionism. He was being called "Smalldini" by fans last season. He was immense.

Jamie freaking Carragher at one stage said he was the best defender in the PL last season. Not that his opinion is gold or anything but for him to say that, there must have been something good about his performances.

I disagree with absolutely everything you have typed. Our defence is as good as anybody's in the Premier League and across Europe at this point in time.

That says a lot about how vacillating fans are. Neither are as bad as people claim they are but is somewhat victim of the club's lack of recent success. At the same time both have plenty of deficiencies and it's equally foolish to claim otherwise. They aren't that bad, but neither can at this point be considered what constitutes solid.

 

[Brwned]

I think they're criticised fairly for the most part, but the level of disdain some people have for them is really odd. It looks like mentally Smalling isn't up to it and physically Jones isn't up to it, but you can't fault their effort. By all means hold them accountable for their failings but why that has built up into something deeper and more personal than that, this season in particular, is totally beyond me.

At the end of the day they were following up what is the best defensive partnership in the club's history. No-one expects that to be matched again in the immediate future but unconsciously the bar has been set very high as a result. There's no getting around the fact an elite defensive trio has been fundamental to most of our greatest successes, and neither Smalling nor Jones have shown themselves to be elite defenders. If we want to compete in Europe we need to aim higher.

 

[Kag]

They are nowhere near top class ..Sad to think we went from Rio and vidic to these two clowns .. For some reason they still get treated like are 19 and will improve .Smalling is 27 and if anything going backwards while Jones looked decent this season only because Rojo was covering his errors

Once he played without Rojo he looked the liability he is again. If we are to get back to the top again it sure won't be with these two in defence every week

Had we scored the same number of goals as Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Spurs or Arsenal then we would be "back at the top", as you put it. We could have Rio and Vidic in defence and we'd still be fifth or sixth. You only have to look at the numbers to see where the fault lies. We're still shite because our manager hasn't got it right going forward and our attackers are still a somewhat mediocre bunch in front of goal.

 

[Dante]

Whoops. Wrong thread

For what it's worth, they both get far more stick than they deserve. Both are excellent defenders and Jones' ability on the ball is vastly underrated.

 

[Ødegaard]

Who is that leading out the team at Wembley in a cup final?

You know, before making this thread, I thought that the hate they got was just a bit harsh. I now know it is mostly irrational and nonsensical. Based on no facts whatsoever

Walking out first is leading?

 

[acnumber9]

Yeah they do. You only have to look at the thread created after The Middlesbrough game for evidence. This after a game where Bailly played like a drunk. I think English players in general get a rough time on this forum.

 

[Dante]

Yeah they do. You only have to look at the thread created after The Middlesbrough game for evidence. This after a game where Bailly played like a drunk. I think English players in general get a rough time on this forum.

Very true. I think there's a fetishisation of anyone foreign because people want United to be a Spanish club with an English accent.

 

[Ramshock]

yep far too much

 

[broccoli]

Personally, no.

 

[Snow]

i think everyone gets too much stick these days, us fans are cnuts

I don't think it's changed, players always got a lot of stick. It's just that now with every year you get more people online because of the age thing. The opinions aren't much different than what you hear in pubs or in the stands, it's just online you "hear" what everybody says.

 

[Oldyella]

There are quite a few mediocre players who won titles with us thanks to the brilliance of Ferguson.

Doesn't change the fact that his statement was nonsense. A player with 2 league medals has no place in a side that wants to, er, win leagues?

 

[VeevaVee]

i think everyone gets too much stick these days, us fans are cnuts

I don't think it's cnutish for paying fans to want players worthy of what was previously expected of Manchester United personnel and point out when they're not good enough.

 

[VeevaVee]

So apparently we have the third best defensive record in all of Europe in 2017 behind Bayern and Juventus.

People love peddling this and ignoring what actually happens in games. Same happened under Van Gaal. People still come out with 'well at least he made us solid defensively'. Did he feck
(not comparing Jose with lvg here. Just that it was similar in terms of how good our defence supposedly was according to some fans)