Does anyone actually regret missing out on the top 4?

Of course. No CL sucks and it is still a myth that LvG would have stayed if we would have beaten West Ham. Jose was a done deal since January or something, 4th place would't have changed that the season was poor and we played shit football.
 
Nobody in their right mind could honestly say they wouldn't rather have made the top 4 and have Champions League football this season. Anybody trying to argue something different is deluding themselves.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Except he wasn't. He was awful. Even worse than Moyes. Which is an incredible achievement.
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Opinion matters. IMO, Moyes is a disaster while LVG regrouped the team to certain level (top 4-5).

If you meant the boredom level of their football, then I can give you that LVG tried to change the club identity so the incompatibility of our football vs his gave us this borefest. However, Moyes' clearly clueless about team building on the club of our scale. We may not look as boring as LVG's team, but our quality was drifting toward Moyes' Everton level despite the quality of players in his disposal (no, it's bs that SAF's legacy model/ team is that bad like Moyes and his goons tried to convince people to believe. In the right hand and a charismatic coach to add the pulling power, that squad as a good base could have been easier to upgrade and maintain top level than after Moyes or LVG).

Hard to describe but LVG has an idea and make the players learn. The players may not be suited, but the experience would help them after LVG leaves. Moyes' simply below the level of the players and they look down on him and refused to get inline at all. LVG limits players to lay their ways. Moyes couldn't build the team, so quality players may still have freedom to shine in one game but doesn't have consistent support to keep the level. So an underperforming team vs bunch of individuals.
 
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balaks said:
Nobody in their right mind could honestly say they wouldn't rather have made the top 4 and have Champions League football this season. Anybody trying to argue something different is deluding themselves.
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Nonsense. The question posed is Top 4 with Van Gaal, or 5th place without him. Assuming the correlation is real then anyone choosing the latter option is doing so for an entirely logical (to them) reason. We've already had one season of CL football with that oaf in charge and it was utterly humiliating. Who would want to go through that again?!?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Nonsense. The question posed is Top 4 with Van Gaal, or 5th place without him. Assuming the correlation is real then anyone choosing the latter option is doing so for an entirely logical (to them) reason.
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Well in that case I apologise - I can see the argument.
 
If it was a choice of top four and LVG or no top four and Mourinho, no contest.

But i'd rather we finished 7th or something. No Europa league games is going to be such a boost to Chelsea and Liverpool's prospects this season.
 
If it meant going with LVG another season and watching shit on a stick football, getting dumped out of group stages again.. I'd take missing out any day.

What people don't realise is that short term hurt can lead to long term gain. Under Jose we can win the CL in 3-4 years. If we had kept LVG and he kept scraping 3rd and 4th, then taken over by Giggs for example.. we'd have been mediocre for years and not enjoying ourselves at all.

If we would have got Jose anyway even if we finished 4th then of course, it is only logical that you'd want to be in the UCL as with the team we are building now.. and with Jose, we'd get into the QF's potentially.
 
No.

We were not progressing under LVG and his style was dreadful for entertainment. In missing out in top 4 we got the best manager in the world, 2 quality players in Mkhitaryan & Bailly and two world class huge name players in Zalatan and Pogba!
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It's a very artificial premise tbf. More of a thought experiment than anything else. None of us have a clue whether or not a top 4 finish would have really saved Van Gaal's job.
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I suspect he was going to go regardless once they knew Jose was available.
 
Tiber said:
Obviously this post does not apply to finishing first and winning this league.
_____

Top 4 is the minimum target for big English clubs and not finishing in the top 4 is a disaster for United.


Like everyone else, I was sad to see United fail to finish 4th and miss out on the champions league next year. And yes I know the Europa league insults still grate. However, right now I am delighted that we did not manage to limp into 4th spot.

If we finished 4th and won the FA cup LVG would almost certainly have kept his job for the one final year before he retired. We would have qualified for the champions league, but with the football we played under LVG I highly doubt that we would have got out of the group nevermind won the thing. We also would have continued to play boring football that made fans eyes bleed, disharmony throughout the squad would probably have gotten even worse and our transfer policy would have been limited (and this is setting aside the pull of Jose) due to the fact that the manager was a lame duck who everyone knew would only be around for 1 more year.

Instead we finished 5th, but added Jose, Pogba, Zlatan, Miki and most importantly of all (at least for me) we added hope. I doubt that we will win the title this year, but I am not dreading the idea of watching United play, I am genuinely excited and am doing all I can to get tickets to games. We just made the biggest singing in the clubs history, which beyond the on field impact is a statement to world football that clearly says we are getting off our knees.

So the question is simple. Would any of you give up 5th place plus Jose, Pogba and Zlatan to have finished 4th and qualified for champions league?
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Of course I do; I always want United to be as successful as possible. This kind of logic of being glad we failed is as bad as the poisonous anti-fan attitude of hoping we fail.

We don't know van Gaal would have stayed, especially with the storeys of player unrest that came out after. We don't know how van Gaal would have done this season had he got us CL and stayed. We don't know how the transfer market would have gone either, but considering Pogba apparently turned down Mourinho's Chelsea you cannot claim Mourinho is the only reason he is back.

What we do know is that we missed out on Champions League and that sucks. Everything after that could have gone the same, better, or worse.
 
I'd normally say "yes" in a heart beat, but we're not experiencing normal the moment. I think Mourinho will benefit (in terms of re-building) from not being in the ECL. I say that now he's secured his transfer targets, because everyone expected us to struggle to attract big players without the lure of the ECL. Being able to bring in these 4 huge talents, should give us a really big chance to win back the title. Then next season we can have a real go at the ECL as champions. I'd love it if Zlatan was still able to cut it next year too, but that might be a big ask, so hopefully it'll be enough for him to help to the Prem title. Who knows he might stay on a coach (possibly player/coach?), how cool would that be for the all the upcoming yoof !
 
Classical Mechanic said:
How do you work that one out?
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We got fewer points and scored less goals under Van Gaal than we did under Moyes. Bearing in mind that Van Gaal had two full seasons in charge (Moyes never got a pre-season with his players) and spent considerably more money, I'd say it's reasonable to say he did a worse job.

EDIT: stats above are after 32 games of his final season. I can't find any which include the subsequent 6 games but doubt they changed much.
 
RetroStu said:
Would anyone be against Jose playing reserves/squad players in the Europa and saving our best players for the league. Or do you think a trophy is a trophy and we would have a good chance of winning the Europa?.
Imo i'd rather go full on for the league.
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I would be fuming if we did that , what is the point of being in a competition that we have never won and not play the best team available.
We would not do it in the CL and I don't buy the Thursday bullshit.
 
MancFanFromManc said:
I'd normally say "yes" in a heart beat, but we're not experiencing normal the moment. I think Mourinho will benefit (in terms of re-building) from not being in the ECL. I say that now he's secured his transfer targets, because everyone expected us to struggle to attract big players without the lure of the ECL. Being able to bring in these 4 huge talents, should give us a really big chance to win back the title. Then next season we can have a real go at the ECL as champions. I'd love it if Zlatan was still able to cut it next year too, but that might be a big ask, so hopefully it'll be enough for him to help to the Prem title. Who knows he might stay on a coach (possibly player/coach?), how cool would that be for the all the upcoming yoof !
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This is a myth and mostly supported by some of Spurs fans on here.

Chelsea & City were able to transform from lower club to top clubs by buying players while didn't have CL to offer at first. We're club with history and also the financial muscle. If Chelsea & City could pull that off, of course we can. Missing CL for couple seasons is not like relegating and goes financial bankruptcy that would prevent us to invest in players to get back up. If anything the ambition, the goal of project to persuade player is what matters.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
We got fewer points and scored less goals under Van Gaal than we did under Moyes. Bearing in mind that Van Gaal had two full seasons in charge (Moyes never got a pre-season with his players) and spent considerably more money, I'd say it's reasonable to say he did a worse job.
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The place in which we finish is a much better indicator of how well the team has performed because it accounts for the relative conditions of the league season to season.

Moyes took a team of seasoned champions to from 1st to 7th whereas LVG improved on that placing and won a trophy.

You can make an arguments on both sides for which manager performed better. I would say LVG but there is certainly no definitive answer. Moyes's case is based on 'well we just don't know because he didn't have x,y and z'. I just don't find those kind of considerations to be compelling.
 
Rado_N said:
No.

We'd have had a worse team than last year with a clueless manager, most likely have gone out in the group stages and then when we did eventually get shot of LVG we wouldn't have Mourinho available to take over and Pogba would probably be at Madrid.

The position we're in now is much better.
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Yeah pretty much this
 
TheNewEra said:
I did do, but nobody seems concerned with the financial side of not reaching the CL. that's a very large implication for not reaching it.

Of course the Europa League is still something to enjoy but the sponsor side of the business is the big drawback.
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Classy response to my insomnia induced strop, apologies.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
The place in which we finish is a much better indicator of how well the team has performed because it accounts for the relative conditions of the league season to season.

Moyes took a team of seasoned champions to from 1st to 7th whereas LVG improved on that placing and won a trophy.

You can make an arguments on both sides for which manager performed better. I would say LVG but there is certainly no definitive answer.
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Yes and no. In terms of "relative conditions of the league" you don't get a bigger open goal than a league campaign where Leicester fecking City end up as champions. Moyes took over when most of the big teams were relatively strong but Van Gaal was in charge when there was a once in a lifetime alignment of the stars that saw City, Chelsea and Liverpool all sack their managers in the same season. He finished higher up the league than Moyes did in his debut season but it was arguably a worse campaign (which is where the goals/points per game stats are also useful)

Which is all the more damning when you consider that this season came when the team should have been kicking on, after Van Gaal had had more than enough time (and money) to get them playing exactly as he wanted.
 
Even if we got 4th, LVG would have gone anyway.

His position became untenable. There was reports of Woodward sounding out senior players long before the FA cup final.

I also believe Jose had been offered the job not long after leaving Chelsea. Recent reports also suggest we were planning to bring in Pogba for while now so had we got 4th, I believe we would have still made the same signings from the manager to the players.

Also Jose made it clear that he did not want to take over UTD mid season. Which was the right decision.
 
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Weren't various people who know Mourinho saying him to United was a done deal long before he signed? Ex Inter president Moratti's wife spilled the beans in February for example. Loads of journalists saying the same long before the season ended. That's why I think it's very fair to assume that Van Gaal was gone either way, especially taking into account the shit show no goals football for months, the hundreds of millions invested without real results and the players being fed op with Van Gaal's rigidness in combination with the unexpected availability of Mourinho.

Anyway, has there been a Premier League team that finished 1st in the same year they only played in the Europa League? I can't remember, but it doesn't feel good. Don't see anything good coming from us having to play loads of European matches on Thursday, especially with the obscure clubs from Eastern Europe and the travel time.

Then there is the fact that missing out on top 4 meant Manchester City did finish 4th. Surely people haven't forgotten. That alone should be reason enough to regret last years shite show and our finish outside the top 4.
 
Top 4 with LVG? No chance... Right now I think we'll win the league, if LVG was still here, I'd be predicting 7th.

I'm very happy with our current outlook.
 
Would have been good to see the new squad stretch its legs in the CL. Gathering experience at that level is vital. You don't get to hold up the trophy without doing the hard yards first.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yes and no. In terms of "relative conditions of the league" you don't get a bigger open goal than a league campaign where Leicester fecking City end up as champions. Moyes took over when most of the big teams were relatively strong but Van Gaal was in charge when there was a once in a lifetime alignment of the stars that saw City, Chelsea and Liverpool all sack their managers in the same season. He finished higher up the league than Moyes did in his debut season but it was arguably a worse campaign (which is where the goals/points per game stats are also useful)

Which is all the more damning when you consider that this season came when the team should have been kicking on, after Van Gaal had had more than enough time (and money) to get them playing exactly as he wanted.
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About this part: LVG tried to change the whole identity of the team, the football philosophy, which is huge thing considered we only 1 years apart from SAF's era. The attachment to SAF's still very strong (vs Bayern streak of manager change prior to LVG's tenure), so the transition time for LVG's project would be much longer than normal in similar school of thought (Ajax, Barcelona). This can't be made up by spending money on players as LVG's style depended on the understanding of players which need time to build. Moyes' style is similar to SAF (far apart on quality level).

Off topic here: the above is what prevented me from being caught into the Pep to United. Pep knows full well with his Bayern time that when a club favor a style and still has strong attachment to previous coach, it's harder to implement his own philosophy. To go to United would be disaster as fans are sick of possession football. City with their lack of history is perfect soil for him to build his philosophy without little to none resistance. City doesn't really have strong identity to compare and would buy into Pep's philosophy as whole if he managed to get his team perform well and bring some success. That goes for their fans and players. Pep is there to be looked up to, not to be evenly compared (criticized). Those philosopher type of managers would prefer that more than the trophy count and identity challenge at United, Bayern.
 
LVG was going to be sacked even if he had made fourth place.

So deluded he was that he felt that he could still hold on after winning the FA Cup.
 
I agree with the sentiment, but it's all based on hope / expectation / presumption.

We should be in a much better position now thanks to missing the top 4, but not a ball has been kicked in anger yet. If we find ourselves still in 6th, struggling to put together any half decent attacking moves come Xmas, none of this means anything.
 
adexkola said:
Does the above logic apply if you change 4th to 3rd or 2nd, or even winning the title?
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If LVG won us the title, everybody would be singing his praises.
And this year, I think we would be able to attract some great players; not necessarily Galactico class, but probably promising youth players who would become superstars in 2-3 years.

The problem with LVG was that he was a 4th/5th place manager. I am not happy when MUFC are finishing in that position.
The problem with Moyes was that he was a 6th/th place manager. I am not happy when MUFC are finishing in that position.
Mourinho always targets 1st place. I am happy when we finish in 1st place.
 
Not really. We're rebuilding and we've a lot of youth in the squad. We might have fluked a great run but I think it's good for us just to get back to basics with a clear motivation to win the league. Ideally we would like a settled first team with players challenging to get in. Less injuries would be good too. I think not being in the CL will be great for us this season. Last season, Shaw picked up a bad injury in the first game and we never recovered. We didn't really benefit from being in the competition. There were too many changes and we were playing nothing football. At least being in the Europa, we can make sweeping changes to keep the team fit hopefully for the season ahead. I'm sure we might like to win it but to me it's a waste of time that further gets diluted by failures in the CL dropping down into the competition. Complete nonsense.
 
Trizy said:
No.

We were not progressing under LVG and his style was dreadful for entertainment. In missing out in top 4 we got the best manager in the world, 2 quality players in Mkhitaryan & Bailly and two world class huge name players in Zalatan and Pogba!
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I think that sums it up nicely.
 
I was laughed at for saying I would rather get Mourinho and finish 5th than finish 4th and keep van Gaal
 
I'm actually sort of looking forward to the Europa. Think it means we'll get a chance to see certain players in action a lot more than we would have otherwise, and it's nice to have footie on a Thursday that I'm actually interested in watching.

Obviously I'd have preferred the CL but with the cost of likely keeping LvG, I'm not that bothered.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yes and no. In terms of "relative conditions of the league" you don't get a bigger open goal than a league campaign where Leicester fecking City end up as champions. Moyes took over when most of the big teams were relatively strong but Van Gaal was in charge when there was a once in a lifetime alignment of the stars that saw City, Chelsea and Liverpool all sack their managers in the same season. He finished higher up the league than Moyes did in his debut season but it was arguably a worse campaign (which is where the goals/points per game stats are also useful)

Which is all the more damning when you consider that this season came when the team should have been kicking on, after Van Gaal had had more than enough time (and money) to get them playing exactly as he wanted.
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I don't buy this thinking in that the only pertinent consideration is how the big teams perform. Big teams might under perform but that doesn't mean that Leicester didn't over perform massively and weren't worthy winners. A perfect storm of management, system, team spirit and players peaking at the same time might not be repeatable but we shouldn't denigrate the quality of the team in that moment.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I don't buy this thinking in that the only pertinent consideration is how the big teams perform. Big teams might under perform but that doesn't mean that Leicester didn't over perform massively and weren't worthy winners. A perfect storm of management, system, team spirit and players peaking at the same time might not be repeatable but we shouldn't denigrate the quality of the team in that moment.
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In isolation, sure, but you can't ignore the context. So many traditional powerhouses sacking their managers in the same season, along with the unusually low points total it took to win the league does indicate some sort of vacuum at the top of the table. Huge credit to Leicester for being the only team with the balls to take that opportunity but I don't think any United manager will ever get as clear a run at the title as Van Gaal last season.
 
We already tried the CL with Van Gaal that didn´t go that well..
So I am really happy, this transfer window has been fantastic and getting Jose for Van Gaal was the topping of the cake.

Really looking forward to this season.
 
Honestly, even winning the league (if we'd still been playing at the same level and win because others had been even worse) wouldn't have made it worth keeping Van Gaal.

I said at the time that I'd take losing out on the CL if it meant getting Mourinho, because the long term survival and growth of Manchester United is more important. This is looking to be the case too. Mourinho has already done much to bring back the big club feel of United.
 
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