England Discussion | Finish 4th

ivaldo said:
"Having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own abilities."

No one has said we will beat Columbia at a canter. All that is being suggested is IF we are to go deeper into the tournament this will be the easier (not easy) route.

Just another term thrown at England fans that's absolutely groundless. If you talk to England fans you'll know they haven't rated their chances for over a decade. Having an easier route through to the semi finals is something every fan would grab with hungry eyes.
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Surely winning your first knockout game in 12 years should be a higher priority than plotting your route to the final?
I just can't get my head around being happy at lessening your chances to win a second round match in the hope of having an easier quarter final against a side that might not even make it that far.
Even then you could be playing the Swiss that the might Brazil couldn't even beat.

Whatever it is about arrogance, I think F365 have summed up the dangers of this thought process quite well



‘Falsely engineering any negative result is a risk; it sends a message of fear to the squad. ‘We’re doing this so we don’t have to face them,’ is an admission of weakness, as if Brazil are a dreaded bogeyman. The nature of a knockout competition is that you will eventually have to beat one of the opposition you initially avoided. The psychological disadvantage at that point should be obvious.

‘But you can sell that same problem the other way. If England opted to finish second and faced, say, Colombia, it is hardly a leap to suggest that Jose Pekerman’s side would have added psychological motivation. Thought we were an easy touch, did you? Let’s see about that.’
 
England will have failed if they don't reach the semi-final. Not by any means saying it will be easy, as Colombia,Sweden and Switzerland are no pushovers, but they couldn't have asked for a better run throughout the tournament.
 
RedSky said:
We have a great chance to reach the final tbh.

Croatia vs Spain is the likely quarter final and that will be a very tough game which will hopefully leave the winner somewhat fatigued ready for the semi final clash. We have to beat Colombia followed by one of Switzerland/Sweden. These are teams that we should really be beating without any hardship (yes we are England and we have the ability to feck up a simple task). But we should really comfortably reach the Semis and have a fairly decent chance at reaching the final and at that point its a coin flip.
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That is completely not true though. Saying you should be beating Colombia/Sweden/Switzerland without any hardship and calling those teams a simple task is just delusion.

Knockout football is very different, all those teams would be happy with a draw and penalties, they're solid and cohesive teams and England have shown they're prone to a defensive mistake with both Tunisia and Panama being able to nick a goal. If James is fully fit I don't even think you're favourites against Colombia.

Too many people here are treating this game as if Colombia beating England would be an upset but it's a 50-50 game. They've been in a tough situation and have had to fight to be here while for England it's been all very comfortable so far.
 
balaks said:
Good grief. I hope you're right but bloody hell where is this confidence coming from?
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Confidence comes from the draw tbh. All of the normal suspects that take us out can't touch us and we've been put in what is probably the kindest draw we could have picked. If we can't beat Colombia, Sweden/Switzerland to reach the Semis then we never deserve to win another World Cup.

I'm buzzing. Not felt like this since 1998.
 
RedSky said:
Confidence comes from the draw tbh. All of the normal suspects that take us out can't touch us and we've been put in what is probably the kindest draw we could have picked. If we can't beat Colombia, Sweden/Switzerland to reach the Semis then we never deserve to win another World Cup.

I'm buzzing. Not felt like this since 1998.
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I don't remember that referendum.
 
We have a great opportunity. I don’t think we’ll be phased at all by the loss today, it wasn’t a normal game. When the stakes are real let’s see what happens.
 
Peyroteo said:
If James is fully fit I don't even think you're favourites against Colombia.
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Nah, come on. That's utter bollocks. Of course we'd be favourites against Colombia with or without James. :lol:

They're not footballing kings all of a sudden. They drew 0-0 against Egypt and Australia in the pre tournament friendlies and struggled (albeit due to the daft sending off in the Japan match) in their group. Nothing to fear from Colombia at all.

Switzerland/Sweden are well organised teams but both should struggle to break us down and we have enough quality in the final third to cause them problems. Neither of them impressed in the group stages, Sweden showed decent resilence against Germany but were let down by poor quality subs. Switzerland are a good team but nothing more than that and certainly not in the calibre of Croatia/Spain.

I'm very optimistic and if you read any of my posts about England since I joined this forum you'd know i'm normally an England grump. I've hated watching us for the past 20 odd years and normally critise the entire setup. It feels weird being this optimistic. :devil:
 
If England don't reach the Semi Final at the absolute minimum, the manager should be fired immediately. Just as the previous manager was fired immediately after the Iceland game. Colombia/Sweden/Switzerland cannot possibly get in our way. Rodriguez is injured anyway.

There couldn't be a better opportunity than this to reach the Semi and possibly the Final. It has got to be done. Don't let us down you bunch of bottlers!
 
I'm happy to see England lose if I'm being honest. Radio 5 this morning was discussing whether 'it's really coming home' seemingly after two wins against poor teams and with Germany going out (like that was something we achieved directly). A state of quiet optimism is so much better than one of unwarranted arrogance.
 
I think it depends on which Columbia turns up. They looked very good against Poland, though Poland were tumescent. But I was impressed with their energy and the midfield play. They looked poor against Japan (though with 10 men) and apparently Senegal played better today (didn't watch that one).

On paper, Columbia and Sweden/Swiss should be easier than the knockout matches we've had in our last few world cups where we've lost (Germany, Portugal, Brazil), but in reality in a knockout match in the world cup anything can happen.

This England side are completely untested though, fairweather matches against Panama doesn't suddently turn players like Lingard into top players. I rate our chances against Columbia, but I think we'll get found out against Spain or any of the other top teams barring a tactical masterclass from Southgate.
 
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Buchan said:
Fair play to Belgium. They’ve backed themselves to go ahead and beat the likes of Brazil and France. Cowardly management from Southgate and unfortunately for him, the players will sense it and it’ll derail their tournament yet.
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This is how I feel about Belgium and England. One tried to win and the other smugly thinking they were playing a clever game hoping for the 'easier' side of the draw. The media have lapped it up too and now on about reaching the semis.

I can see this backfiring spectacularly and Southgate/ media/ England being made to look like plonkers.
 
I think there’s a danger of Colombia being underrated. Think they are an extremely dangerous side and I’m not sure you’d want to be playing them. They’re hard working, energetic and move the ball very quickly. Cuadrado, Quintero, and obviously James and Falcao are a quality attack.
 
Irrational. said:
This is how I feel about Belgium and England. One tried to win and the other smugly thinking they were playing a clever game hoping for the 'easier' side of the draw. The media have lapped it up too and now on about reaching the semis.

I can see this backfiring spectacularly and Southgate/ media/ England being made to look like plonkers.
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Or how about two teams with nothing really to play for and one team coming out on top in the end, with a moment of quality.

There was certainly a care free attitude towards the game from both teams, but actively throwing it? I'm not sure Southgate was too bothered really.
 
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It didn't take long for that "quiet optimism" to boil over into something stupid.
 
RedSky said:
Nah, come on. That's utter bollocks. Of course we'd be favourites against Colombia with or without James. :lol:

They're not footballing kings all of a sudden. They drew 0-0 against Egypt and Australia in the pre tournament friendlies and struggled (albeit due to the daft sending off in the Japan match) in their group. Nothing to fear from Colombia at all.

Switzerland/Sweden are well organised teams but both should struggle to break us down and we have enough quality in the final third to cause them problems. Neither of them impressed in the group stages, Sweden showed decent resilence against Germany but were let down by poor quality subs. Switzerland are a good team but nothing more than that and certainly not in the calibre of Croatia/Spain.

I'm very optimistic and if you read any of my posts about England since I joined this forum you'd know i'm normally an England grump. I've hated watching us for the past 20 odd years and normally critise the entire setup. It feels weird being this optimistic. :devil:
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It's not optimistic as much as delusional if you think there's nothing to fear about Colombia. And don't get me wrong, I like this England team but the shift in expectations has been incredible.

Topgun1 said:
If England don't reach the Semi Final at the absolute minimum, the manager should be fired immediately. Just as the previous manager was fired immediately after the Iceland game. Colombia/Sweden/Switzerland cannot possibly get in our way. Rodriguez is injured anyway.

There couldn't be a better opportunity than this to reach the Semi and possibly the Final. It has got to be done. Don't let us down you bunch of bottlers!
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Some people here keep repeating there's no arrogance and that they hate that a lot of people are anti England but this is exactly why. It's not just the media.
 
cyberman said:
Surely winning your first knockout game in 12 years should be a higher priority than plotting your route to the final?
I just can't get my head around being happy at lessening your chances to win a second round match in the hope of having an easier quarter final against a side that might not even make it that far.
Even then you could be playing the Swiss that the might Brazil couldn't even beat.

Whatever it is about arrogance, I think F365 have summed up the dangers of this thought process quite well



‘Falsely engineering any negative result is a risk; it sends a message of fear to the squad. ‘We’re doing this so we don’t have to face them,’ is an admission of weakness, as if Brazil are a dreaded bogeyman. The nature of a knockout competition is that you will eventually have to beat one of the opposition you initially avoided. The psychological disadvantage at that point should be obvious.

‘But you can sell that same problem the other way. If England opted to finish second and faced, say, Colombia, it is hardly a leap to suggest that Jose Pekerman’s side would have added psychological motivation. Thought we were an easy touch, did you? Let’s see about that.’
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Sorry but that quote is absolute bullshit.

Surely you can accept that we should beat Columbia, I'm not saying we definitely will, but we have the better team. So England fans optimistically, not arrogantly, are looking ahead, to see how far we go. No England fan expects to win the world cup or even get to the final (your words, not ours), we are just excited by the prospect of going further than we thought we would. If we were Sweden or Iceland no one would but an eyelid.
 
England are ranked 12th in the world right? So right now we are about par. Anything now is a bonus for me. This is a world cup all the games from now on will be hard but winnable. Im excited.
 
Honestly I see us v Colombia as a 50-50 game, same with the Swiss. I'd prefer to be in Belgium's shoes and have a much more winnable Last 16 and a tough Last 8. England tried to win, Belgium's reserves were just better than ours.
Colombia are no pushovers and came through a tight group. Will be a really tight one.
 
Peyroteo said:
It's not optimistic as much as delusional if you think there's nothing to fear about Colombia. And don't get me wrong, I like this England team but the shift in expectations has been incredible.

Some people here keep repeating there's no arrogance and that they hate that a lot of people are anti England but this is exactly why. It's not just the media.
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We shouldn't fear Columbia. England has the better team, only a moron would disagree. It's like saying United are arrogant if they expect to beat Everton. Does it always happen? No, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't go into the game with a reasonable expectation of progressing.

Oh wow, you found an odd poster who expects too much. You can literally do that with every team in the world. It's like you've had zero exposure to england fans over the last decade.
 
ivaldo said:
We shouldn't fear Columbia. England has the better team, only a moron would disagree. It's like saying United are arrogant if they expect to beat Everton. Does it always happen? No, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't go into the game with a reasonable expectation of progressing.

Oh wow, you found an odd poster who expects too much. You can literally do that with every team in the world. It's like you've had zero exposure to england fans over the last decade.
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I would say at best we're marginally better. We'll be favorites but lets be honest, Colombia beating us wouldn't be as unexpected as Everton beating United. More like Arsenal beating United imo..
 
The last time England defeated ANY opponent in KO competition with any sort of style was Denmark in 2002. Even 2006 Paraguay was tough. England will almost always make it difficult and Colombia are a good outfit. England will be favored but it's a tough one and I want to proceed on the side of caution. The week of rest will have done them well no doubt let's just hope the mindset changing for a few days isn't effective. England had a few days to plot a way to almost not win whereas Colombia have been on their toes so carry some momentum and intensity that it's possible England may have lost.
 
ivaldo said:
We shouldn't fear Columbia. England has the better team, only a moron would disagree. It's like saying United are arrogant if they expect to beat Everton. Does it always happen? No, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't go into the game with a reasonable expectation of progressing.

Oh wow, you found an odd poster who expects too much. You can literally do that with every team in the world. It's like you've had zero exposure to england fans over the last decade.
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One poster? I'm not quoting everyone but it's plenty of people who are saying similar.

Colombia aren't to England what Everton are to United... the fact you and so many people here think that's the case is exactly what I'm talking about. At best England are small favourites against Colombia. Especially given that a draw also means Colombia win.

I've had plenty of exposure to english fans. I've read the caf for a lot longer before I joined and it's the same thing every single time.

And please don't treat me as if I'm being anti-english or anything like that, I'm not. I'd prefer you won than Colombia.
 
Do people honestly think England are clearly a better team than Colombia? Pekerman is a much, much better manager than Southgate.
Ospina's certainly much more proven at this level than any of England's keepers.
Sanchez and Mina are very good centre backs who would definitely be ahead of a converted full-back or Harry Maguire.
England's full-backs are better.
Both central midfields are largely mediocre.
Colombia's front four of Cuadrado, Quintero, James and Falcao is better than any attacking combination England could field.
But England have the best striker in Kane.

I think it's a lot closer than some people and I'd even have Colombia as slight favourites, although with Rodriguez's injury, I'd say England are slight favourites. England have not won a knockout stage fixture in yonks and I think Colombia is a stronger side than any of the sides England knocked out in 2002 or 2006.

Colombia's side is largely the same side as the one that beat a tough Uruguay side that England lost to last time out, minus Suarez. They at least have recent pedigree in winning in the knockouts and pushing Brazil close last time.
 
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padr81 said:
I would say at best we're marginally better. We'll be favorites but lets be honest, Colombia beating us wouldn't be as unexpected as Everton beating United. More like Arsenal beating United imo..
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When Colombia qualified in 2014 for the World Cup it was the first time in 16 years. They've only qualified for the World Cup 6 times afaik. So they aren't exactly a big name nation full of history and experience. The furthest they've got is the quarters twice. They're far more like Everton than they are like Arsenal. I don't think England have ever lost against Colombia?

Don't get me wrong, we aren't going to destroy them. But i'd be surprised if bookies consider them the favourites.
 
padr81 said:
I would say at best we're marginally better. We'll be favorites but lets be honest, Colombia beating us wouldn't be as unexpected as Everton beating United. More like Arsenal beating United imo..
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Why at best, marginally better? We have the better squad and let's face it, Columbia has hardly set the tournament alight. They were 15 minutes away from going out to Japan and Senegal after being absolutely battered by the later. Your very conservativeness shows the lack of arrogance of the average England fan.
 
ivaldo said:
Sorry but that quote is absolute bullshit.

Surely you can accept that we should beat Columbia, I'm not saying we definitely will, but we have the better team. So England fans optimistically, not arrogantly, are looking ahead, to see how far we go. No England fan expects to win the world cup or even get to the final (your words, not ours), we are just excited by the prospect of going further than we thought we would. If we were Sweden or Iceland no one would but an eyelid.
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Why should you beat them?
I'd take their defensive partnership and keeper over yours and their front 4 is incredibly dynamic when on form.
I'd take your front line but Colombia's attack v your defence evens out the superior Englands attack against the better (IMO) Colombian defence.
If you were simply excited about getting further then shouldn't you prefer the easier Japan game instead?
 
I wouldn't say the england team is clearly better than Colombia at all tbh.
Your defence and keeper are pretty mediocre. Your midfield isn't great, Henderson and Dier are the only real midfielders being honest, Alli and Lingard can probably do a job but its not a natural fit for them is it? And Alli, Sterling and a few others just haven't shown much form for England.
I honestly don't know half the colombia players and find it hard to judge the likes of falcao and cuadrado, so maybe you are better. But your just not good enough to dismiss anyone at this point. How many teams do you think Henderson would get into for instance?
 
Peyroteo said:
One poster? I'm not quoting everyone but it's plenty of people who are saying similar.

Colombia aren't to England what Everton are to United... the fact you and so many people here think that's the case is exactly what I'm talking about. At best England are small favourites against Colombia. Especially given that a draw also means Colombia win.

I've had plenty of exposure to english fans. I've read the caf for a lot longer before I joined and it's the same thing every single time.

And please don't treat me as if I'm being anti-english or anything like that, I'm not. I'd prefer you won than Colombia.
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Plenty? Nonsense. The vast majority of England fans have been pessimistic throughout. There's a reason why so few fans travelled.

Right. So now can I claim you're being disrespectful to the alternative? This Columbia side were minutes away from being knocked out of a group containing Japan and Senegal, after being completely outclassed by the latter. At no point have I said it's an easy game, but it's one we are expected to win. Seriously, what is wrong in stating what everyone accepts: that England are favourite for this match up.

Then you should know the pessimism that surrounds the national team. It would baffling if you had honestly read the threads about the NT and thought the fans were arrogant, or even optimistic about it's chances.
 
I'd think England wouldn't have done much better in Colombia's group.

No real weak link and four fairly balanced sides, best African side, one of the best Asian sides and a solid European side.

It's why some of us earmarked it as the most interesting group before the tournament started and it didn't disappoint.
 
cyberman said:
Why should you beat them?
I'd take their defensive partnership and keeper over yours and their front 4 is incredibly dynamic when on form.
I'd take your front line but Colombia's attack v your defence evens out the superior Englands attack against the better (IMO) Colombian defence.
If you were simply excited about getting further then shouldn't you prefer the easier Japan game instead?
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Because we are the better team! Why should Bournemouth beat Norwich, why should Everton beat West Brom? Are you telling me Columbia are favourites? Because even the other posters who are disputing this with me concede we are "narrow favourites".

You mean the team that were minutes from being knocked out to a group containing Japan, after being entirely outplayed by Senegal, a team considered inferior to the Tunisia team this very England side beat? It's funny how performances in this world cup only matter when you're trying to prove your point.

Why? We have a very reasonable chance of going further than the last 16. Why shouldn't we hope for it? How often have you seen England fans proclaim we will smash Columbia, or that we shouldn't take them seriously?
 
Vidyoyo said:
I'm happy to see England lose if I'm being honest. Radio 5 this morning was discussing whether 'it's really coming home' seemingly after two wins against poor teams and with Germany going out (like that was something we achieved directly). A state of quiet optimism is so much better than one of unwarranted arrogance.
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Everyone's been saying it, tongue in cheek. Being happy to see England lose because they talked about it is ridiculous. There's a bit of positivity because everyone has seen England play terrible and seem to lose passion in recent times. Now we have a system, the players are quietly confident and it's enjoyable again. Nothing wrong with the fans getting into it. The World Cup is about having a good time as much as it is serious.
 
Since Southgate took over we've conceded 12 goals in 17 games keeping 8 clean sheets. That's not a mediocre defense. We're actually not too bad at the back imo, we have the occassional lapse of concentration now and then which needs cutting out but its one of our strong points. We actually look very organised which is something fairly unusual.
 
I think being organised with decent players will take you a lot further than throwing lots of great players on the pitch and hoping it works out. You have no glaring weaknesses but i just dont think anyone is going to be jealous or worried about anyone other than kane.
I think a lot of the criticism comes from your attitude to your opponents more than yourselves. You often dont give much credit to anyone other than the likes of Germany or Brazil.

RedSky said:
Since Southgate took over we've conceded 12 goals in 17 games keeping 8 clean sheets. That's not a mediocre defense. We're actually not too bad at the back imo, we have the occassional lapse of concentration now and then which needs cutting out but its one of our strong points. We actually look very organised which is something fairly unusual.
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Have you played anyone better than Belgiums B team in that time? Your defence is fine but i'd be surprised if it didn't cough up chances here and there. I'm still a bit sceptical of it I guess.
 
caid said:
Have you played anyone better than Belgiums B team in that time? Your defence is fine but i'd be surprised if it didn't cough up chances here and there. I'm still a bit sceptical of it I guess.
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Germany, Spain, Brazil, Italy, Netherlands (off the top of my head).
 
What did everyone make of Danny Rose tonight? Everyone is talking about RLC, Rashford, Dier or Jones or whatever but Rose has flown a bit under the radar.

Better than Young for LWB or worse? I must say I felt he fecked up against Januzaj for the goal, it was obvious he wanted to shift it on his good left foot.
 
Easy path to the semis, I just hope they don't win it all. **cringe**
 
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