Yep. Fully agree but it seems that it's so rooted into modern day culture especially among blacks that 'nigga' will be around for a very long time.
Evra accuses Suarez of racist remarks | Suarez guilty of racial abuse
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Yep. Fully agree but it seems that it's so rooted into modern day culture especially among blacks that 'nigga' will be around for a very long time.
You also have to consider not only what is said, but the way it is said.
For example. Calling a black man "black" is not racist in any way. However, if I called a black man "black" repeatedly during a period of heated exchanges, it's fair to assume that I was using the word in an antagonistic way towards the black man in order to cause offence or, at the very least, wind him up.
For me, this is what it seems Suarez has done. Despite the non-racist connotations of the word he used, the manner in which he seemed to use it, when he and Evra were clearly at loggerheads, shows intent to cause offence. Anyone that thinks he was simply trying to calm things down by calling him 'mate' or 'pal' is clutching at straws.
Unfortunately, I suspect the FA will gobble up that excuse willingly.
For example. Calling a black man "black" is not racist in any way. However, if I called a black man "black" repeatedly during a period of heated exchanges, it's fair to assume that I was using the word in an antagonistic way towards the black man in order to cause offence or, at the very least, wind him up.
For me, this is what it seems Suarez has done. Despite the non-racist connotations of the word he used, the manner in which he seemed to use it, when he and Evra were clearly at loggerheads, shows intent to cause offence. Anyone that thinks he was simply trying to calm things down by calling him 'mate' or 'pal' is clutching at straws.
Unfortunately, I suspect the FA will gobble up that excuse willingly.
My girlfriend is black and has spent a lot of time in south america and is used to that sort of banter amongst friends. She leaves me in no doubt that while it is fine amongst friends, the notion that a stranger can repeatedly refer to your skin colour during a confrontation and claim not to be racially abusing you is farcical. And all the time she was in south America no one she did not know ever referred to her with any form of the n word. As she says, if they did they'd get a slap
Not to sound offensive or sexist, but its a bit different if its said to a girl. If you were to ask Suarez, he'd say he wouldnt use it towards a girl. I doubt anyone who uses negrito would use it towards a girl unless they were being really really stupid. It just doesnt fit calling a girl that. My background is greek. We have similar terms and speaking ways as other ethnic countries. I think the one we have is called Mavraki, loses a bit typing in english, and that means little black man. That word is always and only ever used as a friendly term, and people who know the word know this too. Its actually considered more friendly then saying 'mate' for example. Its hard to explain it and if I try I'll probably trip over so I'll not bother. But yeah, we'd never use that towards a girl either. Its more of a polite thing. You speak to girls differently.
As for winding someone up, they're on the pitch with people they know. While they may not be friends, I'm sure players see each other as workmates. You see them always helping each other up, slapping them on the back, rarely trying to kill each other if they bump each other over. So the term can be used as a friendly term when everyone around is already doing the same thing. While the UTD players are calling Evra nigga, Suarez says negrito, which is way way way more friendly then nigga.
Anyway, because its an english league, Suarez will be charged in some way, get some bans and what have you, and be forever seen as a racist. The last part is what bugs me since what he said wasnt a racist term. But english is english and here english wins.
As for winding someone up, they're on the pitch with people they know. While they may not be friends, I'm sure players see each other as workmates. You see them always helping each other up, slapping them on the back, rarely trying to kill each other if they bump each other over. So the term can be used as a friendly term when everyone around is already doing the same thing. While the UTD players are calling Evra nigga, Suarez says negrito, which is way way way more friendly then nigga.
Anyway, because its an english league, Suarez will be charged in some way, get some bans and what have you, and be forever seen as a racist. The last part is what bugs me since what he said wasnt a racist term. But english is english and here english wins.
Yeah, I'd call a black workmate who I don't really know 'nigga'!
Sorry, but that's a real stretch.
Sorry, but that's a real stretch.
And from a professional standpoint, you should be aware enough of your environment to not say such things. He's not in South America. He's in England. It's a different set of rules. It doesn't really matter how it's applied in Uruguay, you can't say that here. I'm sure any foreigner that comes into the league is warned about using certain words even if in their own land, it is not so offensive.
You have to respect the work environment in which you are in. Therefore, Suarez will be judged based on the rules in England. He could still get off pretty nicely if the FA dont make a firm decision.
Also, considering the circumstances, I'm not sure Suarez would be calling Evra a name that's meant to be friendly about 10 times in an intense rivalry. Not much sense there. He'd save himself a lot of trouble if he just said mate!
Thanks for coming in and offering some balance to the topic and a different viewpoint.
While I accept what you are saying about terms of endearment that people use in their home countries, the example you gave 'Mavraki' does not equate in this debate. The word negrito is much too close to the Nig** word to be used in the manner that he used it. Sorry, but if Suarez is not a racist he is an idiot of the highest order.
He'll be charged dont worry. And its not just in Uruguay, its in MANY countries that dont speak english. Saying it 10 times could also be him trying to calm down Evra who was probably intense from the beginning. You dont know how Suarez uses the word if your primary and only language is english. Yes its in a different league to his home, but why exactly are all the other UTD players calling Evra an N related word on the pitch and not getting flack for it? If you were in a workplace and everyone was using the word on 1 guy and they were all happy and then suddenly you said it and he took offense, how exactly would that be fair.
In my eyes everyone using the word on the field should be punished, not just 1 guy. They used it as friendly towards him. So thats ok. Suarez used it friendly, albiet a different word, and its not classed as friendly. If its the same word then both parties should be charged if one does.
I get what you're saying and half agree. Mavro is the greek word for black. Adding the ki at the end changes it to a playful word, which is what 'to' at the end of negro is in uruguan, and most likely spanish, but my spanish aint super so dont hold me to that. While Negro is what his face would be classified as, the N word is a slang, so in my eyes should be seen as totally different.
In my eyes everyone using the word on the field should be punished, not just 1 guy. They used it as friendly towards him. So thats ok. Suarez used it friendly, albiet a different word, and its not classed as friendly. If its the same word then both parties should be charged if one does.
I get what you're saying and half agree. Mavro is the greek word for black. Adding the ki at the end changes it to a playful word, which is what 'to' at the end of negro is in uruguan, and most likely spanish, but my spanish aint super so dont hold me to that. While Negro is what his face would be classified as, the N word is a slang, so in my eyes should be seen as totally different.
How do you know our players say this? You cant think that because Suarez said so. I would understand if Evra confirmed it. In my mind, I don't see why our players would call him that anyway. It's probably just Paddy
Well I dont see why he would make it up since he even said the word he used, which is different. Why lie about it then give the truth at the same time? I honestly can see them saying it. No different to saying chav or anything else etc. No UTD player has come out and said they dont say it. I'd expect them to be angry if it was a lie.
JOHN TERRY and Luis Suarez face each other tomorrow — and will wear anti-racism T-shirts.
The pair at the centre of racial abuse claims will clash during Chelsea's Premier League showdown against Liverpool.
It is the final fixture of Kick It Out's 'weeks of action' to raise awareness.
And it will be the ONLY match this weekend where players have to wear campaign T-shirts during the warm-up.
Rival managers Andre Villas-Boas and Kenny Dalglish will wear campaign badges, announcements will be made over the Stamford Bridge PA system and both clubs have been briefed on the message Kick It Out want promoted.
The previous top-flight game in the 'weeks of action' was QPR's 3-1 defeat against Tottenham at White Hart Lane.
That was seven days after England skipper Terry was accused of abusing Rangers defender Anton Ferdinand.
Uruguay striker Suarez has been charged by the FA with racially abusing Manchester United defender Patrice Evra at Anfield last month.
The Sun.
The ironing is delicious.
The pair at the centre of racial abuse claims will clash during Chelsea's Premier League showdown against Liverpool.
It is the final fixture of Kick It Out's 'weeks of action' to raise awareness.
And it will be the ONLY match this weekend where players have to wear campaign T-shirts during the warm-up.
Rival managers Andre Villas-Boas and Kenny Dalglish will wear campaign badges, announcements will be made over the Stamford Bridge PA system and both clubs have been briefed on the message Kick It Out want promoted.
The previous top-flight game in the 'weeks of action' was QPR's 3-1 defeat against Tottenham at White Hart Lane.
That was seven days after England skipper Terry was accused of abusing Rangers defender Anton Ferdinand.
Uruguay striker Suarez has been charged by the FA with racially abusing Manchester United defender Patrice Evra at Anfield last month.
The Sun.
The ironing is delicious.
Yeah, I never heard any other players were calling him N****. But even if so, if I worked with a few black guys and they called each other Nigga, I wouldn't wade in and say what up my nigga to one of them. It's not socially acceptable.
One rule for one people but not the other. Thats what bugs me. Also last I checked football is a multicultural sport. I think its unfair that english overrules everything else. Negrito and N' are two completely different words and should be seen as such. What really should happen here is it should be listed as a clash of cultures where everyone gets educated on the other persons upbringing in a different country. Give it a friendly positive outcome. Racism just brings too much hate that will continue to linger long after this is over.
Grrrr! You're making assumptions mate. First of all, the FA told us to keep a tight lip on this. What the feck do you think we are doing? Keeping a tight lip. Just because you can see them saying it doesn't mean they're saying it. The same applies to what I said. However, give me a good reason for them to say negrito. Of all the things to say to a fellow teammate. Why would they say negrito? What's the point? To you, it's the same thing as saying chav. How can you say the same for them? Do you know them?
Ok so Suarez must have used that word on loads of occasions. Since he came to Liverpool he must have used it towards black players on loads of occasions in training and everyone thought it was fine. And he must have been using it all the time in holland and every black player over there thought it was fine too. And in the EPL he must have said it to other black players he played against and they are all cool with it? So why has no one at Liverpool or on other teams taken him aside and said 'hang on there fella, ye can't say that around here'. Suarez only iv has been with a Uruguayan paper and he said 'I used a word'. Not 'I said negrito' or whatever. To a Uruguayan paper who would apparently understand totally the innocence of his utterance. He didn't repeat it in that article. Why not?
Isn't it more likely that he does not in fact use that word regularly when talking/rowing with strangers and that Suarez knows what he was saying and was winding Evra up? And that if you look at their confrontations they are very much face to face and angry. And that there really is no excuse for calling a man out by his skin colour. In any language. Anywhere
I know what you're saying. However, the man is in England. This is the same thing as asking whether Muslims be judged based on sharia law or something over that respective nation's law. You respect the law and the rules of the environment you inhabit. It's that simple.
Agreed. Makes no sense. This is the problem. We try and create all these gray areas which is left open to interpretation. We all know how that goes. In the area of racism, it's an absolute mess
In Uruguay the age of consent is 15, here it is 16. If Suarez copped off with a 15 year old over here he'd be charged and seen as a paedophile.
Just because you're from somewhere doesn't mean you can take the laws from that place with you around the world.
Just because you're from somewhere doesn't mean you can take the laws from that place with you around the world.
This for me is huge. if the word was not offensive why didn't he tell us what it was in the interview?
as has been said by many, calling out anyone based on skin color, religion, or gender is highly inappropriate.
End of.
You're getting angry at me for making assumptions yet you're doing the same thing in return. I dont think I know 1 black guy who doesnt calll another black guy nigga. Its on tv, in movies, in the work place, in the stores, in multiple countries I've been to. So is it really that much of a stretch to think that maybe Evra uses it with friends since he's got a bit of a cocky personality so it would fit too, using it with say Ferdinand or Nani or whoever. I dont think its that far of a stretch to think they also use it between each other.
This parts in an answer to both the above... My background is greek, so the derogatory term towards me would be Wog. Now granted, if someone uses it in a way to be offensive towards me, I'll have issues. But its easy enough to tell if someone is saying it to be a cnut or if they're being friendly. Unless you're really stupid. I've had strangers call me it, but if I can see they're saying it in a non offensive way, it doesnt bug me. Then again maybe its because I live in Australia and we're also less anal then the rest of the world. I have no problem with a friend saying it to me, I also have no problem with a stranger saying it in a friendly way.
You both say Suarez was saying it to rile him up. All the time they were on the camera they werent yelling or pissed at each other. The only time it looked like they were both angry was after Suarez tried to pat him on the head and Evra ran off to the ref. Duing that part it looked to me that Suarez realized he'd might of said something to piss Evra off and was trying to be friendly back to diffuse it, the pat on the head and looking confused etc. Only after the part where Evra went to the ref and said everything was when Suarez got angry since he realized then Evra was calling him a racist. Thats how I saw it and really its not too hard to see it.
Again if you're english then you're going to find all this completely offensive and go at me for it. Thats not my problem. I can see from both areas.
I'm not saying that though. It's an important distinction. Sharia law is something very important to Muslims. It's not a matter of taking it away from them but that as being a resident/citizen of that country, they must respect the rules and regulations of that country.
I talked about this with one of my muslim friends and he says for him, he draws the line where the law of the land is in conflict with the law he follows as a muslim.
Yes I agree. But using muslim as an example is not really good. Laws on how you live your life compared to slang are different things.
....where did I imply that? I realize that. I'm just saying using the word negrito specifically. And if Evra uses with other players such as Ferdinand and Nani, what makes it okay for Suarez to say it? This is why it's a convoluted issue. You have outright racism and then what some people call contextual racism. Sounds weird but the latter pervades most of what people bring up. Like you say with other blacks calling each others niggas. I'm black myself and we do that. My friends that arent black understand not to say it and that's where the discussion ends.
The reason I got angry is because I dont see the point in assuming that other teammates call Evra negrito when we're not even completely sure that it even happens. What's the point of speculating? For a situation like this, it's better to be accurate rather than just say something on a whim.
Reading through your posts, maybe you're talking about the word nigga. However, Suarez and Evra aren't mates so it carries the same effect if you see what I mean.
Of course. The point I'm making is in terms of Suarez being charged for the words he used in relation to the rules here in England. Obviously, it's not the same as if we were talking about a muslim but the principle is the same. You respect the rules from where you currently reside. If you dont, you get in trouble.
All I care about is seeing that Liverpool player getting strung up!
That's the key though. It would have been much different if it was caught on camera. I think it's also fair to say that at the point we saw Pat's reaction, that was the point in which their little duel reached an escalation. It's very easy to say things in passing on the field. Therefore, I can see how a camera could have missed it. It's very possible that Suarez said those words with it not being caught on camera.
Like you say, really depends on how you want to see it. As people, we rarely look at things objectively. There's always the slightest bit of bias.
Dont get me wrong, I do understand what you mean and do agree. Its just stupid that every single word should be linked to racism when its not meant to be. But to be fair not knowing whether they talk to each other like that isnt the same as ruling that they dont. You said yourself that you and all your other friends who are black use it with each other. From what I've seen and heard, it seems all black people do this. Its a culture thing.
Thats the sad thing. In an english view and a UTD supporters view, every kind of logic or explanations go out the window and there is nothing but blood wanted.
Precisely!
Exactly my point though. Do I like using it? Not all the time. I realize the message it sends to others that arent black or older blacks who absolutely cant stand it. It's a ridiculous thing I agree but such is life. I actually dont think whether our united lads say it really makes a difference. Based on the fact that Evra and Suarez do not share the same relationship makes what our boys say irrelevant. What's happening here is really similar is if some kid came up to us and said 'what up my niggas?' when he himself is not black.
Really just shows we haven't moved as forward as we'd like to think. People's reactions have been a huge indicator of this. It's been shocking.
You might want to look through the thread. People have actually been pretty good about it. I know you're offering a different view but always look at it through their eyes mate. I'm sure that's something that life has taught you.
No, we're generally more objective than that, despite appearances. In this particular case, while cultural context gives us some insight, it strains credibility to give Luis Suarez such an astonishing benefit of the doubt; that is merely common sense stemming from our knowledge of how football actually is, and not mindless bias against a rival club's player.
You might want to look through the thread. People have actually been pretty good about it. I know you're offering a different view but always look at it through their eyes mate. I'm sure that's something that life has taught you.
I didnt mean it as a whole on UTD supporters, I probably should of made that more clear sorry.
I'm not seeing it as any rival fan of any football club. I'm seeing it in terms of a
language and cultural exchange.
And just for the record mr fever, I want to say I have enjoyed this discussion. This is how we grow. By learning from each other. Might respond later but I need to do some work. Race and social exchanges and things of that nature is a real deep passion of mine. Hard to resist talking about it.
Good discussion mate. Cheers
Not sure how anyone could claim Suarez was trying to calm Evra down. He was quite clearly trying to wind him up. What benefit does he have to calming him down? Evra isn't his teammate, if he loses his temper and gets booked, that's to Suarez's advantage. And we all know Suarez will do pretty much anything (biting, pulling hair) to rile his opponents.
So let's drop this matey bullshit. He wasn't being Evra's pal or trying to get him to calm down. There were no terms of endearment or affection. It was the complete opposite. So then the question is, is it appropriate to refer to someone's skin colour repeatedly during a heated argument, especially when it appears to be causing them a lot of distress?
So let's drop this matey bullshit. He wasn't being Evra's pal or trying to get him to calm down. There were no terms of endearment or affection. It was the complete opposite. So then the question is, is it appropriate to refer to someone's skin colour repeatedly during a heated argument, especially when it appears to be causing them a lot of distress?
Which is the more likely scenario?:
a) A player taking part in a derby match, deliberately provoking an opponent in order to gain a reaction perhaps leading to a numerical advantage for his team? Or...
b) A player making a genuine mistake & spending the rest of the game desperately attempting to apologise?
As I mentioned, it's merely common sense - and this is why it's obvious what Suarez was up to.
a) A player taking part in a derby match, deliberately provoking an opponent in order to gain a reaction perhaps leading to a numerical advantage for his team? Or...
b) A player making a genuine mistake & spending the rest of the game desperately attempting to apologise?
As I mentioned, it's merely common sense - and this is why it's obvious what Suarez was up to.
Same here, thanks.
You could use this in the direct opposite view. Before that exchange happened there is a video that shows Evra falling to the floor and rolling when Suarez hadnt touched him. Clearly he's also trying to get the other player booked. So its unfair to point the finger one way but not the other.
When he was trying to pat him on the head, thats a term of friendship many people use, especially on the field. You'll see this everywhere when they're trying to be nice or polite after something like a bad tackle etc. He saw Evra was getting pissed, looked confused, and to me it looked like he was trying to calm him down.
You're making it sound like every derby game every player tries to get the other person sent off and noone is friendly. If this was how things were I would of stopped watching this sport. So I'll be going along with B).. I'd rather not think of football in such a disgusting unsportsmanlike fashion.