Evra accuses Suarez of racist remarks | Suarez guilty of racial abuse

Red Dreams said:
you would have to be pretty stupid to buy all that. certainly the vast majority on here would not want a racist player on our books and Fergie would not be forgiven for supporting him.

Suarez acknowkledged he did make racist remarks to Evra. That is fact.

And I dont accept all Liverpool fans buy into all this garbage. They are not all racists. But there are significant minority that has used this to vent at a black player. simple.
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A racist player? Evra himself said that Suarez is not a racist. If it was the other way round, people on here would be using the exact same excuses for it as the Liverpool fans are, claiming it was a friendly term, and that the Liverpool player was being deceptive. Ferguson wouldn't be forgiven because most people would never give him anywhere near the (well deserved) criticism that is being given to Dalglish at the moment.

Suarez didn't acknowledge that. It's not a fact. And there are certainly Liverpool fans out there who are not racist, but think Evra is a cnut who made it all up, believing (wrongly) that he was a history of doing it. You simply can't characterise them all, or a large minority of them, as being racists over this.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
This is what I take objection too. Firstly, it's not a comparable situation, as I can't ever forsee Fergie ever reacting in the same way KKK has, but if he did... I know for a fact I would condemn him, and if our club reacted in the same way as Liverpool, I would be disgusted by it.

I know it's "easy to say" from this side of the fence, but I really can't stress how strongly I feel about racism, and how Liverpool have dealt with this situation,
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If you did, you would be in the minority. There's really nothing to suggest that United fans are significantly better behaved or more opposed to racism than Liverpool fans.
 
kietotheworld said:
A racist player? Evra himself said that Suarez is not a racist. If it was the other way round, people on here would be using the exact same excuses for it as the Liverpool fans are, claiming it was a friendly term, and that the Liverpool player was being deceptive. Ferguson wouldn't be forgiven because most people would never give him anywhere near the (well deserved) criticism that is being given to Dalglish at the moment.

Suarez didn't acknowledge that. It's not a fact. And there are certainly Liverpool fans out there who are not racist, but think Evra is a cnut who made it all up, believing (wrongly) that he was a history of doing it. You simply can't characterise them all, or a large minority of them, as being racists over this.
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you are merely assuming United fans will be as bad. Many on here have said they would not want such a player playing for us.
 
There'd be a stark contrast in how we acted in a similar situation because we don't have Liverpool's fractitious history with the press, and because we don't have the conspirational mindset Liverpool fans possess, as a means of coping with the disappointment of consistent failure to compete.

Other than that, I thought kie's post was a good one.
 
Red Dreams said:
you are merely assuming United fans will be as bad. Many on here have said they would not want such a player playing for us.
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Many Liverpool fans have said they wouldn't want a racist playing for them, they rationalise it by contending that he is not a racist, and the opposition player must be lying. United fans have the distinct advantage when looking at this that our manager is not whipping everyone up into a tribal frenzy, and that it's not our player that's facing a ban.

If Ferguson was in full support of one of our players, and he'd been accused of something which couldn't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, I feel sure the majority opinion on here would be backing Ferguson. It certainly wouldn't be calling for his head based on the report of an Independent Commission.

SteveJ said:
There'd be a stark contrast in how we acted in a similar situation because we don't have Liverpool's fractitious history with the press, and because we don't have the conspirational mindset Liverpool fans possess, as a means of coping with the disappointment of consistent failure to compete.

Other than that, I thought kie's post was a good one.
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I've seen people on here complaining that referees, the press or the FA are working against us hundreds of times, I've been guilty of it myself on occasion, albeit a few years ago. It might not be as bad as with the guys on RAWK (I don't really consider myself a fit judge of that, being inherently biased myself as a United fan) but we can't pretend that as a fanbase we're especially objective because we're not.
 
fair points kw. I will hold my hands about percieved 'unfair decsions from refs' :)

but my comments about racism stem from my own experiences as a United follower all these years. Though I have heard the odd idiot shout stupid stuff like that, my personal experience of 'bad behaviour' is pretty much limited to seeing 'fans' looking for a fight or just 'pushing it' if you know what I mean.

Nah...I would never overlook such behviour from any of our fans...nor from our manager...but all this is so hypothetical. Fergie has voiced many times that such behaviour is intolerble. I'm thinking specifically of the Smikes/Wright business here.

mind you thats just how I feel.
 
Red Dreams said:
fair points kw. I will hold my hands about percieved 'unfair decsions from refs' :)

but my comments about racism stem from my own experiences as a United follower all these years. Though I have heard the odd idiot shout stupid stuff like that, my personal experience of 'bad behaviour' is pretty much limited to seeing 'fans' looking for a fight or just 'pushing it' if you know what I mean.

Nah...I would never overlook such behviour from any of our fans...nor from our manager...but all this is so hypothetical. Fergie has voiced many times that such behaviour is intolerble. I'm thinking specifically of the Smikes/Wright business here.

mind you thats just how I feel.
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I'm not saying United fans are particularly racist, not at all, I'm just saying that characterising Liverpool fans as being racist because of the booing of Evra, it's not fair. The alleged monkey gesture and the Oldham player being abused, fair enough, but they're very much isolated incidents, rather than something the whole fanbase can be criticised for.

The booing of Evra, it is out of order, but when you have a man who is seen as basically a God among Liverpool fans, a man who attended a load of funerals after Hillsborough, a man who's almost beyond reproach, and he backs the guy so fiercely, so unrelentingly, it's not surprising that as a group the Liverpool fans buy into it, and if you accept that Suarez is innocent, then Evra must be a massive liar. His behaviour has been an absolute disgrace, it's him who is responsible for it and I don't think he's copped anywhere near enough criticism for the mentality that he's created there. When he first came back I had nothing against him, being too young to really remember him, and hearing that he was a decent chap by all accounts, but he's shown himself to be an absolute cnut of a man.

Perhaps we don't have a Dalglish figure, even Ferguson isn't as revered for us as Dalglish is for them, but if you reverse the situation and say that Sir Bobby Charlton and Ferguson both came out and said that one of our players was innocent, there's no video evidence, and Ferguson and Charlton alluded to secret goings on behind closed doors at the FA, I like to think I would argue that they were full of shit on here, and their behaviour was disgraceful, but I sure as hell wouldn't voice that opinion if I were in the stands next to someone booing the guy who was found to have been abused. Not that I think Ferguson and Charlton would ever behave in such a way in real life, as you say, it is very hypothetical.
 
Kraftwerker said:
In terms of the two cities, I've always found Manchester to be more multi-cultural than Liverpool as well.

Manchester must easily be the most multicultural outside London in the UK.
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Don't think there's much difference at all. I spend a fair bit of time in Liverpool and the rest of it here in Manchester. They are pretty similar in most respects. There are more Indians and Pakistanis in Manchester but more Chinese in Liverpool.
 
Kraftwerker said:
In terms of the two cities, I've always found Manchester to be more multi-cultural than Liverpool as well.

Manchester must easily be the most multicultural city outside London in the UK.
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well thats the way I have seen it even in those days.

but frankly I Am surprised at the Liverpool support reaction...cause I would not have seen them as being 'racist'...that is why I have tried to excuse the majority of them. now this comes from my own experience with them and actually having scouse friends and even some LFC supporting relatives..Yuk!!

...but really to justify what Steve has explained, if that was the case...

god man I would rather not follow the bloody game...

you really have to be a cnut of a person to stoop that low.
 
kietotheworld said:
I'm not saying United fans are particularly racist, not at all, I'm just saying that characterising Liverpool fans as being racist because of the booing of Evra, it's not fair. The alleged monkey gesture and the Oldham player being abused, fair enough, but they're very much isolated incidents, rather than something the whole fanbase can be criticised for.

The booing of Evra, it is out of order, but when you have a man who is seen as basically a God among Liverpool fans, a man who attended a load of funerals after Hillsborough, a man who's almost beyond reproach, and he backs the guy so fiercely, so unrelentingly, it's not surprising that as a group the Liverpool fans buy into it, and if you accept that Suarez is innocent, then Evra must be a massive liar. His behaviour has been an absolute disgrace, it's him who is responsible for it and I don't think he's copped anywhere near enough criticism for the mentality that he's created there. When he first came back I had nothing against him, being too young to really remember him, and hearing that he was a decent chap by all accounts, but he's shown himself to be an absolute cnut of a man.

Perhaps we don't have a Dalglish figure, even Ferguson isn't as revered for us as Dalglish is for them, but if you reverse the situation and say that Sir Bobby Charlton and Ferguson both came out and said that one of our players was innocent, there's no video evidence, and Ferguson and Charlton alluded to secret goings on behind closed doors at the FA, I like to think I would argue that they were full of shit on here, and their behaviour was disgraceful, but I sure as hell wouldn't voice that opinion if I were in the stands next to someone booing the guy who was found to have been abused. Not that I think Ferguson and Charlton would ever behave in such a way in real life, as you say, it is very hypothetical.
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I think you're right in that the blame lies with Dalglish and the club as a whole. When they took such an extreme stance, the fans were never going to take a moderate stance.

If the club had handled the case properly and accepted that Evra had a right to report being called negro, and even apologised for the offence caused, the number of LFC fans booing Evra would've been greatly reduced to something of a minority.

They're taking their lead from the top and the people at the top should be deeply ashamed. If those reports are true that privately they've admitted mistakes to the mother of a murdered black teenager, then that's a step in the right direction. Some public contrition would be better though.

I disagree that United fans are so easily swayed by what Fergie says though. I know it's not exactly the same, but witness how he comes out and unequivocally supports the Glazers. It has virtually no bearing on the fans' feelings.
 
The trouble with comparing fanbases is this: Liverpool fans are a unique case - they'd tell you that themselves. As has been pointed out, just about every team's supporters thinks (for example) the refs are against them, the FA's against them etc etc; but only at Liverpool is there a deep-set desire to believe that this actually is the case - and it's merely compensatory behaviour stemming from disappointment at lost glories, spurned chances, incompetence on and off-field, and the relative success of Manchester United in recent years. They are different, and proudly so.
 
kietotheworld said:
A racist player? Evra himself said that Suarez is not a racist. If it was the other way round, people on here would be using the exact same excuses for it as the Liverpool fans are, claiming it was a friendly term, and that the Liverpool player was being deceptive. Ferguson wouldn't be forgiven because most people would never give him anywhere near the (well deserved) criticism that is being given to Dalglish at the moment.

Suarez didn't acknowledge that. It's not a fact. And there are certainly Liverpool fans out there who are not racist, but think Evra is a cnut who made it all up, believing (wrongly) that he was a history of doing it. You simply can't characterise them all, or a large minority of them, as being racists over this.
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It is not up to Evra to decide if Luis Suarez is or is not a racist.
 
Kraftwerker said:
I disagree that United fans are so easily swayed by what Fergie says though. I know it's not exactly the same, but witness how he comes out and unequivocally supports the Glazers. It has virtually no bearing on the fans' feelings.
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That's fair enough, we don't really have a comparable figure to Dalglish at United, except perhaps, as I mentioned, Charlton.
acnumber9 said:
It is not up to Evra to decide if Luis Suarez is or is not a racist.
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Is it up to United fans?
 
Racism is the great ignorable. There's an element of 'get on with it' at all levels; this is why we see utter nonsense like the notion of shaking hands with offenders. It's completely preposterous and leads one to conclude that certain parties don't want the 'product' being viewed as damaged by potential consumers.
 
SteveJ said:
Racism is the great ignorable. There's an element of 'get on with it' at all levels; this is why we see utter nonsense like the notion of shaking hands with offenders. It's completely preposterous and leads one to conclude that certain parties don't want the 'product' being viewed as damaged by potential consumers.
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..and the ones that push the 'shake hands and get on with it attitude' belong in the group that has not faced racial discimination...like stupid Blatter.

..and the minorities that dont want to make a fuss...just dont want to make waves because they dont want to damage their own livelihoods.

think we all have our own prejudices in one form or another...but to dismiss someone because they are not white?

nah..that just re enforces all the wrong that was done over the last several centuries.

just my thoughts on it....
 
'Whatever the outcome of what is now a police investigation, all of us are deeply sorry for what happened on Friday night and our players and our Club pass on our sincere regrets to Tom Adeyemi for the upset and distress he suffered as a result of the matter at hand.



that is a line from the recent Liverpool FC statement after that incident. now we see a man was arrested after appearing to make monkey gestures. I assume the least that can be expected now is a statement from LFC granting Patrice Evra the same respect and sympathy as Tom rightly got. or is Patrice different for some reason?
 
Legend16 said:
'Whatever the outcome of what is now a police investigation, all of us are deeply sorry for what happened on Friday night and our players and our Club pass on our sincere regrets to Tom Adeyemi for the upset and distress he suffered as a result of the matter at hand.



that is a line from the recent Liverpool FC statement after that incident. now we see a man was arrested after appearing to make monkey gestures. I assume the least that can be expected now is a statement from LFC granting Patrice Evra the same respect and sympathy as Tom rightly got. or is Patrice different for some reason?
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Of course. He plays for us.
 
Lance Uppercut said:
Of course. He plays for us.
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And therein liverpools anti racism stance is laid bare. If you play for Oldham they will of course apologise personally to you for their fans racist behaviour (and rightly so) . If you play for united........nothing.
 
Legend16 said:
And therein liverpools anti racism stance is laid bare. If you play for Oldham they will of course apologise personally to you for their fans racist behaviour (and rightly so) . If you play for united........nothing.
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No, beyond nothing. They will try to vilify you, paint you as a conspirator and then, even after the evidence convicts their man, refuse to apologise.
Disgraceful behaviour from any club, let alone one of Liverpools stature. And Kenny D has to shoulder much of the blame for this, IMO.
 
Oldham said:
I think Suarez should be ignored at Old Trafford. Every sane person knows he's a cnut and I don't really see the point in booing him.
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No. This is beyond being the bigger team, it's about standing up for not just Evra, but banishing racism out of football. A player that has been convicted of racial abuse should have to deal with the consequences of their actions.
 
StuCol101 said:
No, beyond nothing. They will try to vilify you, paint you as a conspirator and then, even after the evidence convicts their man, refuse to apologise.
Disgraceful behaviour from any club, let alone one of Liverpools stature. And Kenny D has to shoulder much of the blame for this, IMO.
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I never had much respect for Liverpoo anyway ,and certainly none for KD, as I remember him all too well from the last time he was their manager, but I must say, their arrogance in this , from start to finish, has been quite amazing. There has never been one heartfelt apology. I was expecting the boos on Saturday, but the continual " one lying bastard " floored me. They ( and I include KD ) in this really don't think they have done anything wrong at all
 
I think the club's behaviour has actually been worse than the fans. You'd expect the intelligentsia to be largely led by the nose, so I'm not remotely surprised or even bothered by that, given their previous - but the club's response has been deplorable.
 
Legend16 said:
'Whatever the outcome of what is now a police investigation, all of us are deeply sorry for what happened on Friday night and our players and our Club pass on our sincere regrets to Tom Adeyemi for the upset and distress he suffered as a result of the matter at hand.



that is a line from the recent Liverpool FC statement after that incident. now we see a man was arrested after appearing to make monkey gestures. I assume the least that can be expected now is a statement from LFC granting Patrice Evra the same respect and sympathy as Tom rightly got. or is Patrice different for some reason?
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No, instead you just get Dalglish treating it as some kind of joke in the post-match interview. Utter scumbag
 
Legend16 said:
And therein liverpools anti racism stance is laid bare. If you play for Oldham they will of course apologise personally to you for their fans racist behaviour (and rightly so) . If you play for united........nothing.
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It's not really a case of who you play for, at least that's not the most important reason.

Fans are expendable, your star striker with an expensive contract isn't. People's club indeed.
 
Zen86 said:
It's not really a case of who you play for, at least that's not the most important reason.

Fans are expendable, your star striker with an expensive contract isn't. People's club indeed.
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But this is a fan arrested for making monkey gestures. It's not Suarez. Similar to Tom Adayemis situation. But no apology from Liverpool this time
 
Legend16 said:
But this is a fan arrested for making monkey gestures. It's not Suarez. Similar to Tom Adayemis situation. But no apology from Liverpool this time
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I guess you're right.

Sadly bitterness is a basic quality in scouser managers these days.
 
Danny Mills:

Booing is part and parcel
The booing of Patrice Evra at Anfield was to be expected. Players get it for all sorts of reasons, including myself. But as long as it stays at boos then there's not a problem. Whilst it was allegedly spoiled by a couple of idiots at the game, you can't legislate for the odd individual in a crowd of tens of thousands. Booing is part and parcel of the game. Evra has to be big enough to stand up and take that, and he dealt with it well. Kenny Dalglish described the booing as "banter" after the game, and it's hard to disagree with him. There's no problem with booing. With racist and homophobic abuse? Yes, undeniably. Anything like that that amounts to personal jibes is an issue, but there's none with booing.

:rolleyes:

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