I think carrick does as much as he can in that regard its scholes that can't do it and likewise giggs. Fergie wants to make the pitch as big as possible but he's neglecting the middle and that for that to work we need energy in the middle and scholes and giggs don't give you that.
Fergie's obsession with picking old players in midfield
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
That's true, it's hard to gauge how good the Second Half performance was because Spurs seemed to shit themselves but considering the gulf in the First Half you have to wonder why they just didn't decide to dominate midfield again. It's confusing but yeah SAF needs back the youngsters now, I don't think he really has a choice. In that First Half we looked old, really old. I don't think Scholes and Giggs will be here next season so the Summer will be interesting but I am confident SAF will change his ways.
Well Giggs gives you energy but he doesn't give you ball retention and Scholes is the opposite. Cleverley can offer both IMO. Not on Scholes' level retention wise but still good and he can run even if he's not defensively brilliant.
When you're 72 there is no such thing as old players 
As negative as he may seem, I tend to side with noodle. Scholes can look the shit with all his fancy passes, but the ones that matter, the incisive through balls we should be playing, aren't being played by him. The best ball of the whole match was RVP to Kagawa for the 2nd goal. That's what matters. Not the nice, neat controlled long balls out wide. He's keeping possession, and bringing players into play, but he's doing it slowly, and mostly out wide, and most importantly being relied on to do it which is taking a lot of the impetus and responsibility off the other creative players. He's also part of the reason our midfield is so easy to run through.
Aesthetically he looks amazing, but tactically I think he's hindering us more than he's helping simply by virtue of what he costs us. Namely energy and defensive cover.
Aesthetically he looks amazing, but tactically I think he's hindering us more than he's helping simply by virtue of what he costs us. Namely energy and defensive cover.
If you guys can remember just a few years back, I remember us dominating the midfield against really good teams like arsenal playing a midfield 3 of anderson/fletcher/carrick. Those were the days when we got really far in the Champions League and won the league easily.
I easily remember the energy showed by the team, the drive and chasing down. We can replicate that with cleverley and anderson right now.
Why have we deteriorated so much?
I easily remember the energy showed by the team, the drive and chasing down. We can replicate that with cleverley and anderson right now.
Why have we deteriorated so much?
A quick count gave me this.
I've been saying this for a couple of years. Having two old guys run around in midfield is insane.
When Scholes returned in January last year, Fergie rotated Scholes and Giggs every game, from what I saw. One would start, then the other.
I've been saying this for a couple of years. Having two old guys run around in midfield is insane.
When Scholes returned in January last year, Fergie rotated Scholes and Giggs every game, from what I saw. One would start, then the other.
That's because Fletcher was this nasty player who fouled Arsenal players.
It would have been nice if someone bothered to make a tackle when Spurs ran right through us for the goals.
That's the annoying thing...we haven't. Our manager just keeps picking midfields that can't do a midfield's job properly, and then sitting there looking angry, oblivious to the problems it's causing us as a team.
We're talking about absolute basics. Your midfield either has to push up and attacke the space ahead of it, or close the gap between itself and the defence. It can't just sit there doing neither, shifting the ball out wide all the time...it doesn't matter if you put three Paul Scholes's there.. If they all sit there doing this, the same thing would happen.
I really do wonder what it will take SAF to give youth a chance. Look at Raheem Sterling, IIRC he played against our Reserves last year and he didn't look all that, now look at him.
It's been like this for too long and far too often imho
People like noodle keep dancing around a particular point in all these MF threads that I think merits direct mention:
The vast majority of caftards have always seemed to think we need a couple of super-creative "world class" MFs to rectify the situation. In reality, the creativity already present in our attacking options means we could get by with a couple of high-energy, competent tacklers.
People tend to think "No Scholes-type passer = weaker team". Which is not true. It just means a different dynamic. Instead of one holding MF and one deep-lying playmaker, it'd be two energetic ball-winners constantly feeding the wingers/Rooney/Kagawa/RVP and keeping things ticking over.
Considering the number of such players who went for under 10m this past summer, I'd say that SAF's "obsession" up until yesterday was probably a sentiment thing. Yesterday's game most likely put that sentiment to rest.
Why would it have taken yesterday's game for SAF to realize that the older players have to be phased out ? It happened last week but it didn't prevent SAF from making the same mistake against Spurs
Giggs gives energy in comparison to Scholes but personally I've noticed a marked lack of energy to his game now. He used to be able to get up and down but now he can go forward but he's not coming back enough or quick enough. Again if we were playing in a 3 then he could do that but playing a 4411 and asking him to play as a centre mid/ left win just isn't working.
Yeah I doubt that's going to change anything. We played giggs against City last year for no reason and did so against Liverpool and nor Spurs this season.
With all due respect to the legend that is Sir Alex Ferguson, he needs to drop his fetish of playing his old guard in every important game, when he should be doing the exact opposite.
This is an excellent post, I agree with every word.
They're not even young, they're 23 and 24.
I think Fergie's philosophy has always been based on rewarding players for their commitment and team effort regardless of whether they are the best player in the world or not. If a player kills themselves in training while also offering a lot to the team without necessarily being world class then often they get a run. Carrick, Scholes and Giggs all fit into that category. Fergie is rewarding them for their team effort and overall positive influence on the squad. Theres probably not a top manager on the planet that would continuously play with just Scholes and Carrick as a central midfield pairing or even dream about starting Giggs in a big game. I'm sure that Fergie is feeling the pain this morning for not signing Dembele but I'm sure he decided not to sign him when he had the chance because he would have felt at the time that it would not have been fair on Carrick who has always given 100% despite being nowhere near good enough defensively to cover the defence in a midfield 2 at a team the size of Utd. Carrick is much more suited to a midfield 3 with a more defensive midfielder behind him! Mabe Fergie feel's Tunnicliffe is not too far from the first team too and doesn't want to halt his progress by signing someone else!! And don't even get me started on Giggs.......
He's controlling games though. Maybe not controlling them for 90 minutes week in, week out but he's played well overall. Scholes' passing hasn't been incisive in that sense in almost a decade, he's there to control the tempo and feed it to the attackers in good positions and he's done that. He's doing what Xavi does but without any of the defensive contribution, so of course his presence hinders us in a way but I think he does enough to make up for it. I don't think it's a case of style over substance with Scholes at all.
Personally the only problem I think we have is injuries and our wingers being out of form. Cleverley, Anderson, Scholes and Carrick have all looked good in spurts this season but we need Nani/Valencia in form before we see how this team shapes up. Kagawa and Van Persie are still settling in but they've done their bit so far, it's the wingers that have been the biggest disappointment so far. Inconsistent play and poor end product from our wide players will always hinder our game far more than is immediately apparent.
I wouldn't say it's the only problem, I definitely think it's the biggest problem though. You look back on the last few years and either Nani or Valencia have been our main attacking outlets and destroying teams (rarely at the same time unfortunately), but both have started really poorly and it's hindering us.
Nani had his best 45 minutes of the season in the second half and it's no surprise we were so much better then as a result.
I think that is a problem with the personnel within the system.
Kagawa and Van Persie are much more effective with their feet than in the air but we are still getting the ball wide, relying on the winger to dribble past the fullback (or pass to the outside runner) and whipping crosses in the air to them.
We should tuck our wide players inside a bit more and get them to make the run inside the fullback to receive a through ball and play lower crosses into the danger areas (with the fullbacks still making the outside runs)
The biggest problem has been in the middle of the pitch. I really don't get how anyone can sit there denying that at the moment.
Our wingers have always been inconsistent and injury prone. Our midfield hasn't always been an open, sloth like shambles.
Even the Wigan game was amusing. I've never been sat in a crowd and heard "fecking MOVE United!" shouted by so many people. Watching this bizarre situation where our midfield was constantly about 30 yards from both the defence and the attack, and doing nothing of much use to either.
We're going to get an absolute hiding from someone soon if we don't change it.
Our wingers have always been inconsistent and injury prone. Our midfield hasn't always been an open, sloth like shambles.
Even the Wigan game was amusing. I've never been sat in a crowd and heard "fecking MOVE United!" shouted by so many people. Watching this bizarre situation where our midfield was constantly about 30 yards from both the defence and the attack, and doing nothing of much use to either.
We're going to get an absolute hiding from someone soon if we don't change it.
the way Tottenham by passed Carrick, Scholes and Giggs with a one-two before they scored the second goal summed it all up. We were not playing with a midfield first half.
Sure, when we play 4-4-1-1 we need central midfielders to be mobile and support both the attack and defence- Carrick and Scholes for all of their positive traits are not the most mobile.
We really need to move away from that kind of game now.
S.A.F.'s decisions baffled me. Not long ago, S.A.F. said Giggsy & Scholesy would not play too many games for obvious reasons. Now, it seems they are in first-team sheet in many games.
I agree with this. Nobody is doubting that Scholes isn't an excellent passer of the ball, but I believe he is more suited to games against weaker opposition where we are leading.
I have also heard the commentator on countless times this season (and last) say something along the lines of "Paul Scholes has given the ball away, we don't say that often"...yes you do. Scholes is giving the ball away far more than he should be in my opinion.
Also, I know it is not really suited for this thread, but Carrick is simply just a water carrier in our team most of the time. 99% of his passes seem to be played directly to the player right beside him, or backwards.
Agree with every word of that
Shows that we are way too reliant on our wing play. And that's exactly the point. If we were better through the middle, or would play midfielders like Clev or Anderson, who actually are trying those deadly through balls or go for it themselves instead of playing it out wide in every situation we would handle a situation like this, with our wingers a tad out of form, a lot better imo.
Carrick doesnt do this at all though and Scholes very rarely.
Experience over youth and vitality works sometimes but when its a team like tottenham with such good pace you need people that can not only keep up but also stop those plays
Manchester United boss Sir Alex Ferguson is demanding his players are at their best for the Champions League encounter with FC Cluj.
Ferguson, intent on redemption after United’s humiliating pre-Christmas exit last season, will persist with a no-risk selection strategy in the hope of adding more points to the three collected against Galatasaray.
He said: “There’s no chance I’ll be going with kids in this one. We will play the experienced players.
“Cluj knocked out Basle over two legs in the qualifier — that shows where they are.
“To win in Braga takes some doing. It’s not an easy place to go. We are taking it seriously.
“They think they can qualify now. They have a home game against United: get something from it and are in a good position with back-to-back games against Galatasaray next.
“Galatasaray against Braga is an interesting one. That’s going to be a big game for their ambitions to reach the knockout stage.”
A bit worried about his obsession with experience.
Ferguson, intent on redemption after United’s humiliating pre-Christmas exit last season, will persist with a no-risk selection strategy in the hope of adding more points to the three collected against Galatasaray.
He said: “There’s no chance I’ll be going with kids in this one. We will play the experienced players.
“Cluj knocked out Basle over two legs in the qualifier — that shows where they are.
“To win in Braga takes some doing. It’s not an easy place to go. We are taking it seriously.
“They think they can qualify now. They have a home game against United: get something from it and are in a good position with back-to-back games against Galatasaray next.
“Galatasaray against Braga is an interesting one. That’s going to be a big game for their ambitions to reach the knockout stage.”
A bit worried about his obsession with experience.
Well, if it means he's giving the likes of Clev and Anderson a go at the weekend then it sounds good to me.
He's probably more so referring to the youngsters we played in the league cup.
He said that on Friday for the Sunday papers. Basically saying he's going to take the game seriously.
I really hope he does not pick his best players for Tuesday
I'm terribly confused as to who he thinks are his best players.
Starting to think Cleverley isn't rated highly by the United staff and that Anderson has run out of chances.
I hope I'm wrong. Both players deserved minutes after impressing against Newcastle in the League Cup.
I hope I'm wrong. Both players deserved minutes after impressing against Newcastle in the League Cup.
After the Liverpool game SAF even said that the old experienced players where the only thing that kept us in the game..
It seems the penny might have dropped now in regards to Giggs considering he got subbed off at HT which is a very unusual thing for SAF to do. But I wouldnt be surprised if we see a Scholes / Carrick midfield 2 with Nani and Valencia on the wings and any two of Rooney, Kagawa and RVP up front in our next big-ish fixture. I really hope the Carrick / Anderson midfield gets a proper test soon.
It's only unusual because United are rarely 2-0 down at HT. Rooney on for Giggs was a very clear cut decision. Against Liverpool he took Nani off at HT. Could well have taken Giggs off then but he didn't. We did see 45 minutes of poor midfield display with Giggs and Scholes both on there. His case for playing them both isn't a very strong one this season. I think he'll give them more shots together before he cuts it out of his tactics book.
But we don't play like Barcelona. Having one player playing like Barcelona isn't really going to help if the rest of the team aren't darting around making 400 runs a minute. Which they're not. Partly because half of them seem to be content to give it to him and let him do something with it, which then ends up with him hitting it out wide. Also, that incisive passing he hasn't done in a decade, Xavi still does. Though of course it helps he's got 10 other people making 400 runs around him.
He's also not really controlling the game, he's controlling our game, which is considerably slower than the game the other team are playing when the other team are a side like Spurs, or last week Liverpool.
You see, for me, this is precisely the problem, except that I see it as very much symptomatic of what I, and noodle, are talking about. If we're so predictably reliant on our wingers (and tbf, we've always been famous for our wing play, though ideally in counter attacking situations rather than slow, lump it in whenever we can situations) then ideally we'd need to play with people who're a presence in the box, or with good support from our midfield. The kind of support Scholes would provide 10 years ago in fact. Except instead of that, we play with one striker, a 4ft 6 japanese physical lightweight, and two central midfielders who barely leave the center circle in case one of them leaves a great cocking space in our defence and can't get back.
So to me, playing Scholes so regularly, and relying on him so consistently to control the game in his own way, means we're stuck playing this distinctly Plan B style of football that the rest of our team isn't remotely set up for.
Scholes is an all time legend, and a wonderful player. But his constant inclusion with Carrick seems to be preventing us from letting a Kagawa type control our forward thrust game, whilst a Cleverly or Ando, or both, busy about both covering for his short falls and contributing themselves.
Cos at the minute Carrick isn't covering for Scholesy's short falls. He's just standing next to him doing a slightly less effective version of what Scholes is doing anyway!
And however weird it sounds, if we're going to have one of them do that, I'd rather it wasn't the one that commands the kind of awe inspiring presence that encourages everyone else to defer to him for inspiration. I'm not saying never play Scholes. It's just in the big games, or for entire games, he's holding us back a bit. Whether it be in adaptation to a new system, or needed player development.
Both him & Giggs should be used sparingly as impact players at this point. If they aren't comfortable with that, then tough, United is bigger than any player. And if Fergie isn't, then that doesn't bode well for how we perceive our squad quality.