I think Bale would be amazing here. We have a tendency to bring wingers in and make them into class players and the same would probably happen with him, we just don't really "need" him.
Gareth Bale is...The most expensive player ever?!
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No, we dont. But being a winger, itd be foolhardy to bet against us signing him at some point. Id be delighted tbh.
It's bit like the RVP signing. We don't really need him, he'll cost a shitload, but he'd likely be so good here that I want him anyway.
And where did I say I expect him to score 25+ goals? You haven't really answered my question, how is Bale's return last season make him a closer to world class player than Wayne Rooney? Rooney had 35 goals in total last season, he helped his team finish joint top last season only missing out on the title by goal difference. How exactly are Bale's achievements last season as a winger any better than a striker scoring 35 goals? Which is what you are insinuating by your "he's closer to world class as a LW than Rooney is as a striker" comment.
Try to actually answer the question this if that isn't too much trouble. Good to see you back, should I assume when your team starts performing poorly you'll go missing with them?
You certainly implied that Rooney's goal tally was his "world class" measure in comparison to Bale.
But the point is this: Rooney would certainly not feature in the world's best XI, and in the world's 2nd XI Bale would be morely likely to feature than Rooney.
You can argue if you like that this is due to a dearth of quality LWs as compared to strikers, but if "world class" has any meaning then it only has meaning in relation to specific player positions.
I dont think that is true. (I think both would have a good shout of being in it, but I think Rooney would be practically a dead cert, as long as it was Man United Rooney playing for this team, not England Rooney.
That's great, good for you....I see you are also speaking on behalf of the caf now...that's nice.
You obviously take exception to my choice of adjective, hence the little speech marks you nicely place either side of the offending word. If you have seen Bale in full flow over the last two years, there are quite a number of occasions this freak of nature has proved devastating to the opposing team. There was one the other night that kicked off this whole little discussion.
If it's the word that you don't like there are many others I could replace it with. Perhaps you would be good enough to offer me assistance?
No I was replying to your post about Bale is more closer to being world class as a LW than Rooney is to being a striker. A player who has scored 25+ league goals twice in the past 3 seasons I think has a better chance of being branded world class than Bale.
As for the world XI comments, what relevance has that with this discussion? As far as I'm concerned world class is down to the quality of the player not how high he would rank if we prepared a list of players in his position. Rooney is up against Messi & C.Ronaldo so he is never going to top that list yet if we think of left wing players I can't exactly say we have a lot of world class players around in that position. There will less players competing for a left or right wing position than as a striker so that doesn't mean anything as far as I'm concerned.
You have still to prove me that Bale's performances on the left wing have been better than Rooney's as a striker. Nani (12 goals, 13 assists) & Walcott (9 goals & 11 assists) all have similar stats and I wouldn't class either of them world class or close to Rooney but I'm sure you'll argue Bale's game goes behind stats like this....
Rooney is in the official world XI.
The world XI wouldn't even have any pure wingers in it, so I don't see how Bale would get selected. Rooney stands a far higher chance to be picked for it.
And your requirement for world class is a whole load of hogwash, if Heskey were the only remaining striker left in the world, does that automatically means Heskey > Bale, since Heskey would be the best striker in the world?
Poor assumption. I speak on behalf of those who aren't as convinced as you are.
I just don't understand why such words as you've said before and "freak of nature" are necessary. It's not a big deal but honestly, I take your point less seriously because it just adds more bias to your argument. He's performed well on certain occasions. Does that not suffice? I think if the discussion was more casual I would probably care much less but based on the number of responses recently, I think it's actually a pretty serious discussion. So as a result, I think word choice does matter. You can still show you're a big fan of Bale and have a balanced argument.
Surely a World XI would go 4-3-3 which means no room for wingers like Bale. Players like Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar, Falcao, and Rooney (to name a few) would be lined up in those forward slots for the first, second, and third selections.
You say: "A player who has scored 25+ league goals twice in the past 3 seasons I think has a better chance of being branded world class than Bale."
So if goals are your prime measure, does that mean we can rule out any midfielder or defender being properly described as world class?
You say that world class has nothing to do with how a "high [a player] would rank if we prepared a list of players in his position"
Frankly, that's ridiculous. It would mean that a player can be called world class in your view, even though there might be (for example) 20 players better than him in his position.
You say that neither Bale nor Nani are world class (let's forget Walcott, because he's obviously not a contender), which leads me to wonder if all LWs are precluded from being world class in your view ... simply because they don't score as many goals as Rooney.
He is certainly a great player in the making. A level just below Rooney but significantly better than other established wingers in the league (I know Rooney isn't a winger, it's for argument's sake), such as Lennon, Walcott.
I'd say him and Ben Arfa are on the same level right now.
He needs to cut out the diving bit though, it seems he does it every other game nowadays.
I'd say him and Ben Arfa are on the same level right now.
He needs to cut out the diving bit though, it seems he does it every other game nowadays.
It wasn't an assumption....I was taking the piss....lighten up. If it's not a big deal why make something out of it? You take my point less seriously because I use certain descriptive adjectives to reference a player's attributes? Thats a tad small-minded, it's trivial really. I included the "freak of nature" description to highlight this and you nicely tucked into the bait...well done.
As for bias, why would there be? I'm not connected to Bale in any way, shape or form....I rate him, but I recognise his limitations. I certainly don't have an agenda unlike certain posters I've observed recently.
Bale has "performed well on certain occasions," doesn't work for me because in my eyes he has performed more than just well on a number of occasions over the past 2 years. You say you want a balanced argument but people are not writing essays here? Perhaps you need to spend less time setting out little parameters that you expect others to adhere to when they post? Personally I'm not bothered in the slightest if you believe my opinion is flawed....your perogative.
Shit can get serious on here, most of the time it is just casual musings....to get petty about word choices just seems pointless....it's not a forum designed to adhere to the concept of Socratic thinking. You are his pupil though aren't you?
Again you do nothing to answer the question and just go round in circles. I have at no point said the goals is how a player should be judged. For a striker however scoring goals is what matters most and is a fair way to justify their quality as a player, I'm using Rooney's goals to justify him as being a world class player. I'm sure he sets up a few goals and generally he is heavily involved in the teams build up so is vital for Man Utd's system, unlike imo someone like RvP who is more someone to finish off the move. Rooney drops deep, has an excellent range of passing and good vision as well. I'd say while he does score goals he sees himself more as someone who plays off a main striker.
So again why is Bale more closer to being world class than Rooney? Because I've seen Spurs play many times in the past year and while I do rate him as a good player imo last season I'd say he wouldn't of made the top 5 players in the league, hell I wouldn't even say he was your best player of last season. Randomly doing a google search it seems maybe I'm the only one who thinks that. You'll know better than me but found this http://www.talktottenham.com/2012/05/tottenhams-20112012-season-review-and-player-ratings/ That site lists 7 players with as high if not higher ratings than Bale. Though I'm not sure how reputable that site is among Tottenham fans but their views on Bale quite similar to mine, devastating on his day but too inconsistent.
Great player. Would do really well here. Nothing much else to it.
IMHO he's an already better player than Valencia with the potential to even take his game a higher level.He's got great talent but no way is he close to Ronaldo/Messi that's just a silly thing to say and even himself knows that
Not sure why you're telling me to lighten up. I'm fine. Here we are on an internet forum, dissecting plain text messages from others. Most of the people we have no personal connection outside of RedCafe but we all find some common ground here. I havent interacted with you enough on this forum to know your style (recently got promoted). Hence, why I took your first sentence literally.
It's quite simple mate. If you use certain adjectives with hyperbolic connotations, do you think people are going to take your points seriously? That's my point. If I say Bale has Hulk-like potential, do you think that's a statement to be taken seriously even though I may mean it? It's not necessarily the use of certain adjectives, it's how you're using them in your overall argument. They're simply not necessary.
You say you recognise his limitations but I think your assessment gives Bale too much credit. You keep saying he's underrated in a certain aspects as if you're defending what you see in him and his potential. I don't think you have an agenda but I think your "bias" comes in the fact that you rate him. I'm not saying you're biased because you rate him.
This is where we disagree then. I maintain he has performed well on certain occasions. Obviously, you think differently. I dont expect anyone to adhere to anything. First and foremost, I'm not a mod. I simply make suggestions. It's up to that poster what they do with the suggestion. I'm not really sure what was the point of saying you're not bothered. I'd be a tad concerned if you were. Again, I only got petty about word choices because I felt it gave off a different impression than what you intended. Maybe I was wrong. After all, I dont know what exactly you're thinking. I can only see what you post on here and even interpreting your posts accurately can be a bit tricky as I alluded to earlier (interpreting plain text).
I try not to go overboard with my word choices because I'm not trying to give one the opportunity to misconstrue my argument. It can happen a lot. Especially if the person you're arguing with is good at making straw-man arguments. That's the background I come from.
Maybe. I think Bale would walk into Arsenal's side though, being a winger with a bit of end product - I wonder if you agree?
Looks like Glaston made a big boo boo
http://www.fifa.com/ballondor/world11/index.html
voted for by 50000 professional footballers.
Arsenal haven't played with a winger since Brian Marwood played in the 1989 league-winning side.
Marc Overmars?
From Limpar onwards we've used players who aren't conventional wingers but wide attackers (see Podolski, Walcott and Gervinho right now).
Rooney looks so out of place in that picture!
Thats quite a bit old, tbf.
Yeah. It is the current official world X1. Mega old tbf.
But Glastons of the interweb thinks differently Jimmy! Oh noes!
That world XI was named in January 2012, for performances of 2011. So yeah it is outdated, even if its the latest one.
Glaston's argument was that Bale is more likely to get voted into the world's second X1!?!? than Rooney. A stupid point when Rooney is in the reigning X1 and had one of his best seasons last time round, in terms of scoring anyway.
Incidentally do City and Chelsea become outdated champions in February?
What do you expect an offcial world XI to be voted for each month MDFC?
Let's not even bother arguing with the very deluded and sometimes fool Glaston
GlastonSpastic
I dont disagree with that at all. Glaston is an utter idiot and that is indisputable.
What a strange thing to say?
Anyway, Glaston's assertion that Bale would get into a world XI easier than Rooney is frankly, biased and nuts. (also proven exactly so by Jimmy's post where 50,000 professionals voted so).
Bale is a fantastic talent, who in no doubt is well on his way to becoming world class. Everyone can see that. But until he moves to a bigger club, it will be very difficult for him to get that sort of (international) recognition because he's going to need to be tearing teams apart in the UCL, week in, week out. (like it or not Glaston, it's the truth). Also, he won't get the opportunity to shine at international tournaments - same curse as Giggs really.
It's a very different prospect playing for Man United [insert another big club here], then playing for Spurs (once again, no offence to Spurs fans but that's they way it is currently). Teams set up defensively against the bigger sides, whereas against Spurs, they more often than not, try to go for the 3 points.
It is not imporrsible, but it is going to be difficult for Spurs to guarantee their players UCL participation etc.
I'd have Bale at United in heartbeat though - he's that good.
Bale is a fantastic talent, who in no doubt is well on his way to becoming world class. Everyone can see that. But until he moves to a bigger club, it will be very difficult for him to get that sort of (international) recognition because he's going to need to be tearing teams apart in the UCL, week in, week out. (like it or not Glaston, it's the truth). Also, he won't get the opportunity to shine at international tournaments - same curse as Giggs really.
It's a very different prospect playing for Man United [insert another big club here], then playing for Spurs (once again, no offence to Spurs fans but that's they way it is currently). Teams set up defensively against the bigger sides, whereas against Spurs, they more often than not, try to go for the 3 points.
It is not imporrsible, but it is going to be difficult for Spurs to guarantee their players UCL participation etc.
I'd have Bale at United in heartbeat though - he's that good.
I dont disagree with that at all. Glaston is an utter idiot and that is indisputable.
What a strange thing to say?
Well if the world X1 one gets outdated after 10 months of it 12 months reign, then why not the Champions of Europe and England?
Seriously now...a world 11 is always matter of subjective opinion. If the same 50k people who voted for the best of 2011 were asked to vote again now, I bet we get a different 11. How you can equate that, to winning a league title which wasn't won based on the subjective opinion of 50k people is beyond me.
The subjective opinion of 50000 professional footballers can be classed as an extensive sample of expert opinion. It is a solid poll, if there ever was one.
Rooney is in the reigning World X1. End of story. It is only outdated in the same was that Chelsea's and City's victories last year are, they are all different entities now.