General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

[Mr Pigeon]

She definitely looks bad, but I'm just not sure of the mileage Corbyn can get out of it himself by grandstanding. Ed was saying similar things to Cameron in 2015 without much success and he turned up to all the debates, but then Cameron was at least comfortable enough in his own skin to get away with it.

True, Labour won't get a bump in the ratings because of it and it would appear petty to bash on about it - and this for me is part of the frustration. I have no issue with the Tories, and I'm not exactly a Labour stalwart (was an SNP voter before), however what I would like to see is a balanced media. Hammond gets his HS2 figures wrong by £20Bn? The Guardian, Mirror and Independent are the only three to report it. Corbyn can't tell an interviewer how much his childcare plan will cost? Mass media front page headlines and top news story on the BBC website. Until all of our politicians, regardless of party, start being scrutinized in the same then there's little hope of the truth from these sort of debates coming out.

The biggest con of this election is how many people have been persuaded that Theresa May is fit for her position. She's utterly incompetent and her track record of gaffs is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Ubik]

Just saw this on the guardian liveblog

May is now taking questions from workers at the factory.

Q: There is no doubt that, just as Churchill was needed during world war two, you are needed now. But I am worried you are going to take away our freedoms with your policy with regard to British viewers. People not involved in terrorism will end up being investigated. I have a problem with that.

Definitely the kind of thing a random factory worker would say

 

[villain]

I don't think it will turn out well for Labour tonight. Not because I expect Corbyn to perform badly -- I think he'll do well. But because I think the Tories have calculated that in the absence of May, the other parties (esp. Farron) will all turn on Corbyn and it'll be a blood bath. Instead of the focus being on May and the Tories failures, it'll be petty squabbling over who Corbyn has appeared with, etc.

That and the papers will tear him apart him tomorrow.

I don't understand the need for all of them to pile on Corbyn, (especially if polls are to be believed) with the exception of UKIP, they all have an interest in stopping a Tory majority win.

It would make more sense if they all debated as normally, but hammered home the point that the leader of the party in power has opted not to debate, so that be a consistent & unified message across all parties. Piling on Corbyn wont gain them any more votes.

 

[villain]

Just saw this on the guardian liveblog



Definitely the kind of thing a random factory worker would say

And the question that followed is suspicious too, definitely a plant

 

[NinjaFletch]

What is happening to Farage?

 

[Skills]

The more I see of Corbyn the more I like. Top bloke.

 

[Ubik]

What is happening to Farage?

Doesn't want what happened to the UKIP vote in the locals to happen in the GE.

 

[altodevil]

What is happening to Farage?

He's a massive dick, but you can't help but think he has some set of principles.May has been a shambles.

Either that or he's doing Nuttall's job of actually fighting the Tories.

 

[Untied]

Initially, perhaps, but once the policy exchanges start flying its importance will diminish somewhat. Most importantly for the Conservatives tonight, is the need to go on the attack in the debate (which the Home Sec will be good at). Sure, the character/judgement of Corbyn was a worthy target, but the economy and Brexit should be the focus from here-on (the Labour manifesto is dubious in both regards).

Good job the Conservative manifesto is so clear on both of these /s

 

[Dobba]

Corbyn needs to say "I'd like to speak with your manager" if Rudd starts getting personal.

 

[esmufc07]

He's a massive dick, but you can't help but think he has some set of principles.May has been a shambles.

Either that or he's doing Nuttall's job of actually fighting the Tories.

Despite every fibre of my being disagreeing with what he stands for, I can't help but like Farage. He'd be great down the pub.

 

[Unmutual]

123456

 

[altodevil]

"I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos"

I can actually see that being the case though.

 

[villain]

The thought of stomaching her being PM for 5 more years

 

[Adzzz]

Despite every fibre of my being disagreeing with what he stands for, I can't help but like Farage. He'd be great down the pub.

He fought for something he truly believed in, for right or wrong and regardless of opinions if more politicians were as convinced and convicted we'd probably have a much better government and country on the whole. Farage is no fool and see's Corbyn probably in a similar ilk to himself, a man of conviction, despite political differences*

*To put it lightly that is.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Good job the Conservative manifesto is so clear on both of these /s

It is clearer than Labour on Brexit, and doesn't do a great deal with regard to the economy. The latter was a whopping error, from both an electoral and presentation standpoint. May would make for an downright appalling estate agent that's for sure.

But then you've got Labour who have gone too far the other way, with unspecified billions on renationalisations, 11bn on free uni tuition, and corporate rates going up at precisely the wrong moment. Not to mention the benefits balls-up, although the Tories are themselves culpable in that quarter.

 

[Cheesy]

Corbyn needs to say "I'd like to speak with your manager" if Rudd starts getting personal.

"First of all, I'd like to welcome all the fellow party leaders for coming to the debate tonight. And Amber Rudd. Although, to be fair, she has a better chance of leading the Tories by the end of the year than Theresa May does."

Would get a laugh or two...

 

[esmufc07]

He fought for something he truly believed in, for right or wrong and regardless of opinions if more politicians were as convinced and convicted we'd probably have a much better government and country on the whole. Farage is no fool and see's Corbyn probably in a similar ilk to himself, a man of conviction, despite political differences*

*To put it lightly that is.

I would agree with this assessment, Adam.

 

[Cheesy]

He fought for something he truly believed in, for right or wrong and regardless of opinions if more politicians were as convinced and convicted we'd probably have a much better government and country on the whole. Farage is no fool and see's Corbyn probably in a similar ilk to himself, a man of conviction, despite political differences*

*To put it lightly that is.

Nah, Farage is an absolute cock. He may have believed in Brexit but he never actually had any conceivable plan for how Britain was going to look afterwards. He's a populist ideologue who pushed for something to happen in spite of having no conception of the aftermath, partly because he knew he wouldn't need to be involved anyway. Now he's managed to build himself a big media profile after years of earning money in a political setup he criticised for years, mainly because he got booted out on his arse every time he tried to get elected here.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

he's doing Nuttall's job of actually fighting the Tories.

This. He knows that UKIP threaten to be swallowed up by the Tory vote. They tried attacking Labour as a strategy up until this election, now they're going after the Tories.

 

[fishfingers15]

Have we started praising Farage because he sent a tweet supporting Corbyn? FFS

 

[Ubik]

Farage aped Nazi propaganda ffs.

 

[Cheesy]

This. He knows that UKIP threaten to be swallowed up by the Tory vote. They tried attacking Labour as a strategy up until this election, now they're going after the Tories.

I think most of UKIP have just given up. For the most part the Tories have basically adopted their central agenda anyway (leaving the EU and reducing immigration) so there's not much point of doing anything else. Farage is just making sure he retains some semblance of credibility. Presumably Trump's not been giving him any attention lately.

 

[Adzzz]

Nah, Farage is an absolute cock. He may have believed in Brexit but he never actually had any conceivable plan for how Britain was going to look afterwards. He's a populist ideologue who pushed for something to happen in spite of having no conception of the aftermath, partly because he knew he wouldn't need to be involved anyway. Now he's managed to build himself a big media profile after years of earning money in a political setup he criticised for years, mainly because he got booted out on his arse every time he tried to get elected here.

I did say for right or wrong, how you are privy to his understanding/conception of post-brexit britain is beyond me though.

 

[Raees]

Have we started praising Farage because he sent a tweet supporting Corbyn? FFS

a man with principles haha

 

[Untied]

The thought of stomaching her being PM for 5 more years

You can basically see the cogs whirring as she tries to think of a good response.

And then the best she can up with is that she is too busy worrying about Brexit to properly take part in the election she called herself.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I think most of UKIP have just given up. For the most part the Tories have basically adopted their central agenda anyway (leaving the EU and reducing immigration) so there's not much point of doing anything else. Farage is just making sure he retains some semblance of credibility. Presumably Trump's not been giving him any attention lately.

UKIP is finished, I think that became clear during the local elections. Farage does have one thing in common with Corbyn though, they both wanted to leave the EU for a long time.

Farage got out at the right time.

 

[Cheesy]

I did say for right or wrong, how you are privy to his understanding/conception of post-brexit britain is beyond me though.

I'm not complaining to be - I'm arguing that he's espoused no vision/conception of what Britain should look like after Brexit. In spite of the fact it's a move he's been campaigning for throughout pretty much all of his political career.

 

[Adzzz]

I'm not complaining to be - I'm arguing that he's espoused no vision/conception of what Britain should look like after Brexit. In spite of the fact it's a move he's been campaigning for throughout pretty much all of his political career.

The closest thing I've heard him say regarding post-brexit britain was regarding trade deals, I think.

 

[Cheesy]

The closest thing I've heard him say regarding post-brexit britain was regarding trade deals, I think.

Which is pretty much my point. If you campaign for something that's going to change your country on unprecedented levels, you'd ideally have an outlined vision/conception of what's going to change, considering it'll have a massive impact. Farage never did. The idea he's some noble man who fought for what he believed in is being incredibly, incredibly generous to him.

 

[Untied]

Praising Farage for standing for what he believes in is ridiculous if you study his career and realise that he cynically absorbed anti-immigration sentiment into his anti-EU vendetta.

Go back to the UKIP manifestos of the 90s and there is no mention of immigration

So yes, he has had an irrational hatred of the EU for his entire political existence, if that deserves praise. He has achieved that aim by realising he could tie it to the only moderately related concerns about immigration and population growth. This is a man who posed in front of a 3m tall photograph of Syrian refugees to signify his principled opposition to the EU. "A man with principles" = Odious shit toad

 

[Cheesy]

Praising Farage for standing for what he believes in is ridiculous if you study his career and realise that he cynically absorbed anti-immigration sentiment into his anti-EU vendetta.

Go back to the UKIP manifestos of the 90s and there is no mention of immigration

So yes, he has had an irrational hatred of the EU for his entire political existence, if that deserves praise. He has achieved that aim by realising he could tie it to the only moderately related concerns about immigration and population growth. This is a man who posed in front of a poster of Syrian refugees to oppose the EU. "A man with principles" = Odious shit toad

Aye, very accurate. Standing by your beliefs on a subject is only admirable if you're well-informed and rational in espousing those beliefs. Farage hasn't been either of those because he was always an opportunist from the start.

 

[Dobba]

How is she getting away with this shit? Corbyn needs to focus on Brexit, like she is. Which is why she called an election 3 years early, after repeatedly saying she didn't see the need for one. He also needs to focus less on his television appearances. Pretty sure the guy asking the question is Sky News' Faisal Islam. It might explain her performance during the thing with Corbyn the other night if she thought she wasn't being filmed.

 

[Adzzz]

Which is pretty much my point. If you campaign for something that's going to change your country on unprecedented levels, you'd ideally have an outlined vision/conception of what's going to change, considering it'll have a massive impact. Farage never did. The idea he's some noble man who fought for what he believed in is being incredibly, incredibly generous to him.

Right and I don't disagree with that, my point broadly speaking is that politicians should have conviction (there should be no reading into that an aspect of nobility etc, hitler had conviction) otherwise, like we see with the majority of the current bunch - they're populist snoozers - May actively countenances against any sort of genuine 'change', for example. I'm not saying it's always good and I'm not saying it's always bad, but the politics of forever ticking over, Toryism essentially, abhors me.

 

[Cheesy]

Right and I don't disagree with that, my point broadly speaking is that politicians should have conviction (there should be no reading into that an aspect of nobility etc, hitler had conviction) otherwise, like we see with the majority of the current bunch - they're populist snoozers - May actively countenances against any sort of genuine 'change', for example. I'm not saying it's always good and I'm not saying it's always bad, but the politics of forever ticking over, Toryism essentially, abhors me.

Yeah, I'll largely agree with that - the Tory approach of always playing it safe is something I'm very much against. Although I do think conviction politics should ideally try to be balanced and reasonable - some slip into equally populist approaches of simply blaming everything on whatever it is they're against. Like Farage with the EU.

 

[Smores]

You can basically see the cogs whirring as she tries to think of a good response.

And then the best she can up with is that she is too busy worrying about Brexit to properly take part in the election she called herself.

An election she called so there was no distraction during Brexit....good one Theresa we believe you.

 

[Adzzz]

Yeah, I'll largely agree with that - the Tory approach of always playing it safe is something I'm very much against. Although I do think conviction politics should ideally try to be balanced and reasonable - some slip into equally populist approaches of simply blaming everything on whatever it is they're against. Like Farage with the EU.

That's the ideal yeah, sadly nuances of arguments are often ignored or downright avoided due to various aspects of society, media particularly, so the broad-side approach of Farage works while the softer more reasonable debate of a Corbyn isn't lapped up by them. Still both driven to do something though, rather than ponderously do nothing.

 

[fishfingers15]

Farage and his conviction. I've seen it all now. Tomorrow if he sends out a tweet backing May on some random Brexit measure, he'll be back to being a toerag like usual.

It's all good praising/respecting Farage for his conviction. I wonder what happened to the conviction of the people praising Farage's conviction.

 

[fishfingers15]

That's the ideal yeah, sadly nuances of arguments are often ignored or downright avoided due to various aspects of society, media particularly, so the broad-side approach of Farage works while the softer more reasonable debate of a Corbyn isn't lapped up by them. Still both driven to do something though, rather than ponderously do nothing.

That's the dangerous sort of logic that delivered the White house to Trump. Yeah, let's elect someone who would do something, instead of doing absolutely nothing.

 

[Adzzz]

If doing something, (the abstraction is open here) is now dangerous logic, then we're in a very weird place.