General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

How do you intend to vote in the 2017 General Election if eligible?

  • Conservatives

    Votes: 80 14.5%

  • Labour

    Votes: 322 58.4%

  • Lib Dems

    Votes: 57 10.3%

  • Green

    Votes: 20 3.6%

  • SNP

    Votes: 13 2.4%

  • UKIP

    Votes: 29 5.3%

  • Independent

    Votes: 3 0.5%

  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 2 0.4%

  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 11 2.0%

  • Other (UUP, DUP, BNP, and anyone else I have forgotten)

    Votes: 14 2.5%
  • Total voters
    551
  • Poll closed .
It isn't a non-existent phenomena. People take criticism of Corbyn personally. Any opinion critical of him gets jumped on.

And an election isn't a cup final. People are allowed to voice criticisms of all sides, as I have done. Political parties aren't, or shouldn't be considered, football teams. Yet anyone deviating from the narrative of #2ndComingJez get pilloried for their contributions in ways that others don't.
 
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fishfingers15 said:
But when all you do is criticize Corbyn, it does get a bit tiresome. You know he's the labour leader for better or worse.
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But I haven't. I've criticised May and the Tories multiple times too. But those comments don't attract the hysteria. Which is the problem. As awful as May has been the reality is she has some leeway to be awful and have a terrible campaign. Corbyn doesn't. The only chance Labour have is if the Tories have the worst campaign in history and Corbyn the best. The former seems to look a good bet but the latter doesn't. I don't get why people get pissy about those who want to talk about that.

He's Jeremy Corbyn, not Jesse Lingard.

There's a wider issue about how the left reaches out that's at play here. As someone who doesn't want a Tory government I think it's troubling how insular and dismissive and divisive many on the Corbyn supporting left have become.
 
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Oscie said:
It isn't a non-existent phenomena. People take criticism of Corbyn personally. Any opinion critical of him gets jumped on.

And an election isn't a cup final. People are allowed to voice criticisms of all sides, as I have done. Political parties aren't, or shouldn't be considered, football teams. Yet anyone deviating from the narrative of #2ndComingJez get pilloried for their contributions in ways that others don't.
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I'm not sure I agree. Most people here (or a substantial amount) would recognise Corbyn's failings. It's just that if you support Labour you'll take a far from ideal Labour leader as PM (unlikely as that is), over a Tory. I never liked Miliband but I wanted him to beat Cameron.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
I'm not sure I agree. Most people here (or a substantial amount) would recognise Corbyn's failings. It's just that if you support Labour you'll take a far from ideal Labour leader as PM (unlikely as that is), over a Tory. I never liked Miliband but I wanted him to beat Cameron.
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I would agree and wanted Miliband to beat Cameron too, but this isn't the Labour party supporter's thread. There shouldn't be a presumption that people support the Labour party or that supporting the Labour party is a prerequisite for offering an opinion. And that's the problem. People post links to self-declared propaganda machines for Corbyn and that's fine. But criticising Corbyn is bizarrely seen as an act of disloyalty.

I can't think of a realistic outcome of this election that isn't awful.

Huge Tory majority and hard brexit negotiated by one of the most incompetent governments in history. Or a small Tory majority where we get all of the above but also emboldens supporters of one of the most useless opposition leaders in history making the likelihood of a Tory election win 5 years later even more likely. Whatever happens we're getting a Tory government and I think it's crap that the standard for Corbyn has been set at: 'Not awful is good'

Whatever happens I just want the Labour party on the morning after to pivot away from being dominated by those who see non loyalists as the enemy.
 
I think this polling surge for Jezza is Tory voters messing about - issuing a warning or having a whinge if you prefer. On the day, they won't be voting for anyone else.

If it isn't though & he can get the young 'uns to turn out in larger numbers than usual... then who knows. But anything other than big Con win is still doubtful for me.

Tory campaign is just absolutely woeful though isn't it? I mean people might be stupid but they can usually spot when they are being talked to as if they are stupid and they usually don't like it very much. All the Tories have done so far is make assumptions about the win being in the bag, patronise everyone & confuse or alienate a large sector of their core support.
 
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I can't think of a campaign of a party that is likely to win that's been worse. Their campaign has nothing other than "I'm not Jeremy Corbyn" and people, rightly, resent that. Still think when push comes to shove the Tory lead will be a bit wider than some polls released this week have shown but it's been a disastrous campaign. Even though she looks a dead cert to get an increased majority, her political capital has plummeted. She'll come out of this with a big more scars than Cameron did when he achieved just a hung parliament.

Whatever happens I think she's done. Unlike Blair and Thatcher who strode to big victories confidently and with a large degree of public support, I think May will get a large majority but look like a spent force and someone the notoriously ruthless Tory backbenchers will have their knives out for. I'd say it's a fair shout that none of the major party leaders will be there come the election after this.
 
Oscie said:
It isn't a non-existent phenomena. People take criticism of Corbyn personally. Any opinion critical of him gets jumped on.

And an election isn't a cup final. People are allowed to voice criticisms of all sides, as I have done. Political parties aren't, or shouldn't be considered, football teams. Yet anyone deviating from the narrative of #2ndComingJez get pilloried for their contributions in ways that others don't.
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The Corbyn thread has been practically unreadable for months, as it's full of sniping by those who claim to 'only have the Party's best interests at heart'. As for you, it might help your quest for reasonable debate if you didn't post offensive garbage like this:
Oscie said:
Get the feeling if Corbyn ate his own shit his supporters would refuse to see it as an issue citing nutritional benefits
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A little extreme perhaps, I apologise for the imagery.

But I don't get why the Corbyn thread is unreadable because of people 'sniping'. There does seem to be a theme of 'different views aren't welcome' when it comes to Corbyn. Here, on social media and in public. Very little tolerance of anything that isn't conducive to a pro-Corbyn echo chamber.

I'm not sure I've ever posted in that thread, though might have done. But I'd assume any thread on a politician would be full of people giving different views. The insinuation seems to be you think that it's 'ruined' because people have had the audacity to disagree.
 
No probs, and thanks.
 
Oscie said:
I can't think of a campaign of a party that is likely to win that's been worse. Their campaign has nothing other than "I'm not Jeremy Corbyn" and people, rightly, resent that. Still think when push comes to shove the Tory lead will be a bit wider than some polls released this week have shown but it's been a disastrous campaign. Even though she looks a dead cert to get an increased majority, her political capital has plummeted. She'll come out of this with a big more scars than Cameron did when he achieved just a hung parliament.

Whatever happens I think she's done. Unlike Blair and Thatcher who strode to big victories confidently and with a large degree of public support, I think May will get a large majority but look like a spent force and someone the notoriously ruthless Tory backbenchers will have their knives out for. I'd say it's a fair shout that none of the major party leaders will be there come the election after this.
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The more people see of the real Theresa May, the less they like her.

The more people see of the real Jeremy Corbyn, the more they like him.
 
Oscie said:
A little extreme perhaps, I apologise for the imagery.

But I don't get why the Corbyn thread is unreadable because of people 'sniping'. There does seem to be a theme of 'different views aren't welcome' when it comes to Corbyn. Here, on social media and in public. Very little tolerance of anything that isn't conducive to a pro-Corbyn echo chamber.

I'm not sure I've ever posted in that thread, though might have done. But I'd assume any thread on a politician would be full of people giving different views. The insinuation seems to be you think that it's 'ruined' because people have had the audacity to disagree.
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He's been unfairly treated in the media since he first won the leadership. You seriously question that?
 
Really though I'd give May 2 years, tops. Utterly bizarre situation where a leader can give their party the biggest majority in 30 years and yet accurately be assessed as an electoral liability. But that's where we are.
 
May and the Tories own goals are evident. I can't see many examples of Corbyn himself contributing to the Tory troubles. The Tories are having a terrible campaign but they all seem to be unforced errors; manifesto without costings, targeting old people and children, clearly not thinking they'd have to put much effort into campaigning.

There's not much there I'd contribute to Corbyn other than his existence making the Tories think they didn't have to try hard. It isn't as if a Labour line of attack or policy seems to put the Tories under pressure. They seem to be fecking this up entirely on their own.
 
esmufc07 said:
Then the Government of the day needs to clamp down on tax avoidance. I can't avoid paying tax for X amount of years and then come to a sweetheart deal with the Government so why can one of the biggest companies in the world in Google? Didn't they end up paying any effective rate of tax of 3%? The whole system is a joke.
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Can't think why so many on the Rich List are more than willing to contribute large sums to the Conservative Party and yet so keen to find tax loopholes.
 
But if it's true that the more people see of Corbyn the more they like him, the approach of "if she's not doing the debate, I'm not doing the debate" is surely bonkers?
 
Who keeps thinking putting Diane Abbott on TV is a good idea?

Corbyn's on Peston this morning. Out of the holy trinity, McDonnell is by far the best TV performer.
 
Kentonio said:
Presumably that will be why from next year or the year after France is changing to a system which is more like the NHS, where people won't have to pay up front to see a doctor?
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Well I read a recent list of health care ratings around the world and france was not as high on the list as people like Paul would have you believe but was way ahead of the UK that was 30th on the list. If they do move to something more nhs like then I imagine it will be funded and managed better, I imagine income tax rates are also higher in france than the uk allowing better funding.
 
Dobba said:
True enough. Everytime I read your drivel I feel like I should be being paid to do so.
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Drivel it may be but you pay feck all income tax in the uk and have the worst services I've come across in western Europe. That's not just coincidence.

Are you going to tell me I am wrong?
 
Corbyn only has himself to blame for polling so badly on Brexit. He hasn't been assertive enough about that.
 
Even if labour lose this election I am confident that the future of left wing politics is secure and I predict a labour government in the election after this one.
 
Raees said:
Even if labour lose this election I am confident that the future of left wing politics is secure and I predict a labour government in the election after this one.
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Hopefully your right.

This was pretty much the main idea of Corbyn-ism(such a pointless word) to build back up some very basic left wing ideas and to try and challenge the argument. Now the higher polling a Corbyn lead Labour Party can get the stronger the future of left wing politics will.

Also another potentially positive could be that if the more Labour friendly polling is correct then the centrist/centre left of the PLP will just have to feck off and form other party.
 
Sweet Square said:
Hopefully your right.

This was pretty much the main idea of Corbyn-ism(such a pointless word) to build back up some very basic left wing ideas and to try and challenge the argument. Now the higher polling a Corbyn lead Labour Party can get the stronger the future of left wing politics will.

Also another potentially positive could be that if the more Labour friendly polling is correct then the centrist/centre left of the PLP will just have to feck off and form other party.
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Or if they are more smart and mature the next leader will be a more pragmatic corbynist I.e. Left wing but no IRA links, says nothing that would raise any security fears and by that time any brexit issues will be non existent.

To be totally honest when you look at this conservative government it is full of grotesque idiots of which the evil and quite frankly not as smart as she thinks witch is the leader of.. they're going to feck up Brexit (a battle any competent leader would struggle with but these idiots will absolutely make a pigs ear of) they will bring the NHS to the absolute brink and with police cuts etc I predict more terror attacks.. they're going to be struggling big time next election.

She's not fit to lead the nation and it will be all on display next few years. It's going to be an absolute car crash and I can't wait to see it all unfold. I don't think she'll see out the entire term.
 
Sweet Square said:
Hopefully your right.

This was pretty much the main idea of Corbyn-ism(such a pointless word) to build back up some very basic left wing ideas and to try and challenge the argument. Now the higher polling a Corbyn lead Labour Party can get the stronger the future of left wing politics will.

Also another potentially positive could be that if the more Labour friendly polling is correct then the centrist/centre left of the PLP will just have to feck off and form other party.
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That'd be a disaster. Would guarantee Tory government for a long, long time to come.
 
Cheesy said:
That'd be a disaster. Would guarantee Tory government for a long, long time to come.
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Agreed. We need everyone to pull together and a unified vision. Alienating the centre left is not the way to go.
 
Raees said:
Or if they are more smart and mature the next leader will be a more pragmatic corbynist I.e. Left wing but no IRA links, says nothing that would raise any security fears and by that time any brexit issues will be non existent.
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It will be interesting to see who will take over after Corbyn, at the moment I can't see many standout candidate. But overall the two most important points for me are

. Getting the threshold lowered - The Mcdonnell Amendment

.The whole of the party (The PLP) understanding that it's a member lead party.

Cheesy said:
That'd be a disaster. Would guarantee Tory government for a long, long time to come.
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Why ?

I'm more thinking that they would form another party and get completely rinsed. I can't see a party formed by them lasting, let alone getting votes. Personally I think the only reason they are still here is because of the name recognition that the Labour Party brings.
Granted there would still be a old Labour right but that's manageable.
 
Why doesn't Corbyn go to the debates just because May won't? It'll be great for his campaign if he shows up and she doesn't. He's letting her off the hook.
 
Sweet Square said:
Why ?

I'm more thinking that they would form another party and get completely rinsed. I can't see a party formed by them lasting, let alone getting votes. Personally I think the only reason they are still here is because of the name recognition that the Labour Party brings.
Granted there would still be a old Labour right but that's manageable.
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Even if they were to get rinsed to the point of only getting, say, 6%, that'd probably be enough to cause a good number of seats to swing from Labour to the Tories due to the vote being split. Checked it out on ElectoralCalculus and something as low as that would cause around a 40-seat difference. Something more substantial (10-15%) would have an even bigger effect, and guarantee more Tory government.

The lack of brand recognition would significantly hamper any Labour breakaway, but I think they'd stand a decent chance of doing alright. They'd have some major, recognisable names who would presumably carry on as MP's in this hypothetical new party - again, some of them would likely still win their own constituency, and if they didn't it'd probably be the Tories who benefit.

There's ultimately got to be compromise within Labour. From both sides. The PLP and that ilk have to recognise they've not properly listened to the membership in recent times and that their attempts to undermine Corbyn from the moment he stepped into office were damaging. Likewise, Corbyn's supporters should be able to recognise that he's been highly unpopular and that the centre argument that they're better positioned to win elections does have some credence. In a PR system a breakaway would be fine, but in the current system it's just not viable.
 
Ubik said:
Doesn't look uniform across all polls, YouGov has the Tories ahead of Labour by 5 and ComRes has them only 5 off the SNP (:lol:) Could do with a Panelbase of Scotland soon.

EDIT - As I post that I just saw this on Twitter, Labour have definitely jumped up but Tories still a bit ahead

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Not great from the SNP...it seems like Labour have lost votes to the Tories (naturally), but are gaining them back by convincing a lot of SNP supporters that Corbyn represents a lot of what they want anyway.

Putting in those figures has it as SNP on 41 seats, Tories on 15, and Labour on 3.
 
Tarrou said:
Why doesn't Corbyn go to the debates just because May won't? It'll be great for his campaign if he shows up and she doesn't. He's letting her off the hook.
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Especially when we hear that the more people see of him the more they like him. If that was even vaguely true Corbyn and his team would have him debating Rod, Jane and Freddy if he was given a prime time platform to do so.
 
There was a poll a couple of weeks ago that had a hypothetical "Progressives" part at 17% to a Labour 19%, I think the Lib Dems were at about 6 and you'd think they'd get subsumed. But yeah, it would be electoral poison unless one side could kill of the other quickish.
 
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