Google “The Good Friday Agreement” if you want to learn about what can be achieved when two sets of people, with diametrically opposed - and entrenched - political opinions try to find some common ground.
Has political correctness actually gone mad?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Google “The Good Friday Agreement” if you want to learn about what can be achieved when two sets of people, with diametrically opposed - and entrenched - political opinions try to find some common ground.
I'll no doubt get slaughtered for this (I'm wishing I stayed in the saftey of the transfer thread) but Tony Blair was on to something at the start of his tenure in no10. I was in my 20's and could remember the Tory years before and that guy got the balance right. He sat pretty comfortably in that middle ground and for a while this country wasn't, or at least didn't feel so divided.
Obviously his legacy is tarnished now but he was truly a modern politician, which is something that cannot be said for either Boris or JC and since TB our politics have taken a massive step backwards at a time where it needs to be looking forwards.
Perfect. I manage a large team at work. Some of them really don't get on. Talking is always the key not name calling and aggression.
Yep. Theres no comparison here. One side is angry because they are racist, sexiest, bigoted and terrorists. The other side just shows how much they hate that particular side.
That's rubbish. We can't all love each other but what you're saying is that we shouldn't accept there 'may be a way' to move forward. That's as small minded as it is defeatist. Most centrists don't have 'sole political views'. Just realistic thoughts such as maybe some aspects of socialism are great but it doesn't work for our finances. And capitalism may be bad, we actually need some of it to fund socialism. It's all part of the same machine whether people want to accept it or not.
If neither side in any argument is willing to compromise then we're screwed. This is what being a centrist is. I just see a lot of pig headed and obstinate idiots so entrenched on either side they're unable or unwilling to accept that there may just be a solution.
Petty sniping has its place.This is true. Although the left also has a tendency to turn on each other with just as much anger and scorn as they use against the right.
The trans activists vs TERFs squabbles referenced higher up the thread being an obvious example. The whole intersectional thing also seems to cause regular bunfights, pile-ons and scrambles for moral highground.
I can’t think of any equivalent scenarios on the right (although that might be because I try not to spend any time immersed in right wing social media - too icky)
Yeah, great. I never said compromise is impossible or bad. I said, and keep saying, that "we need to find a common ground" and "we need a centrist government" are worthless political viewpoints in themselves. They mean nothing. It's the equivalent of "let's be nice to each other".
It's especially worthless on the context of this thread. Sure, let's compromise on how much the richest in society should be taxed or whether benefits should be means-tested. But if someone believes that homosexuality is a sin and it should be illegal then there's no compromise and common ground to be had. And all too often the cries for compromise come in this context: "we should not call racists racist, we should try to find a solution that works for everyone!".
Yeah agreed. It can get very messy and as you say the the pile-ons especially can be horrible. But nothing the left has done can equal the extremes of the right.
Can’t believe I forgot to mention Labour’s antisemitism clusterfeck as another example of left on left drama...
Maybe not currently and historically but I've seen it grow and grow into something that is ugly in its own right and if left unchecked how bad will it get in the coming years?
So not now and not ever but maybe in the future the two will be the same if unspecified things occur?
Yeah, they're totally the same then.
"even though it hasn't happened before, and it's not happening now, what if it ever does happen? what then?!?"
There has always been the right and the left all through history. They have both shared completely different values and it has always been one side that wants to openly hold back and oppress one side, while the other side tries to fight and revolutionise society in a more progressive direction. Modern society has it in the form of social media and advertising and posturing but its always the same concept.
The truth is regardless one side is clearly a worst side morally than the other.
Can you provide examples?
Some rich people might have to sell their 9th house and you might run into a girl dressed as a dude in the men's room. Lord protect us all.
Of course, I'm not making a direct comparison here as there isn't one. I just worry that the extreme left is getting messier and more angry and the lines between the behaviour of both sides are blurring even if the causes aren't.
Why would either of those bother me? I'm neither rich nor bigotted.
No not you, I mean the right in general. The solution is one of two things; either the far right will stop being bigots or the left will stop caring about them being bigots. The problem is on the right. The left's agression is reactionairy.
The far right have a lot of infighting which is why you see organisations like the EDL form and then splinter quite quickly before disappearing.
I think the hard left in this country have a similar strategic problem, they have little appetite to reach out to the centre to create a the broad church generally needed to win power (its a little different at the moment with the chaos in British politics), they'd rather those centrist vote for the Tories.
Of what? The extreme lefts' anger? It's there. The hatred and fury at protests against politicians or anyone who doesn't share their views ...
The far left may well be morally justified in their anger just as much as the far right are completely wrong in their views and beliefs but if neither side show some willingness to get beyond it then we are screwed.
That doesn't make either side right.
Not all people on the right hold extreme views on race or sexuality. Nor are they rich. Just as not everyone on the left wants to aggressively fight opposing views. There is a bigger middle ground to be had than is currently on offer that's all I'm trying to say.
Ah, yes of course, I thought we were talking about the far right and far left. Moderates can find middle ground of course.
Still the far right is inherently far worse than the far left if you ask me. That doesnt mean the far left is universally fantastic. I think far-anything is wrong. Us humans (we humans?) have the ability to look at things in a nuanced manner. We should always do that.
The problem with centrism is that some people like to see it as the only inherently sensible position, filled with rational and level-headed people who would do a great job of running the country if only they were given the chance, unlike the entrenched extremists on the left and right.
But take a gander through Twitter and you'll find that's not the case - many centrists (to use the term broadly) are just as hysterical, ideologically minded and entrenched as their counterparts on the left and right. I sympathise with the wider motivations of a lot of the People's Vote types but a lot of them are incredibly hysterical and over-dramatic at times, no less so than the worst of Corbyn's fans.
A lot of this comes down to Blair - the popular view is often that he was an unprincipled pragmatist who veered to the centre because he had to. That's entirely incorrect, he was a deeply ideological position with a very fixed and entrenched worldview of his own. Whether that ideological was good or not is another debate but he was by no means someone who liked compromise and he wasn't necessarily pragmatic either. He simply did a good job of convincing everyone else he was.
But take a gander through Twitter and you'll find that's not the case - many centrists (to use the term broadly) are just as hysterical, ideologically minded and entrenched as their counterparts on the left and right. I sympathise with the wider motivations of a lot of the People's Vote types but a lot of them are incredibly hysterical and over-dramatic at times, no less so than the worst of Corbyn's fans.
A lot of this comes down to Blair - the popular view is often that he was an unprincipled pragmatist who veered to the centre because he had to. That's entirely incorrect, he was a deeply ideological position with a very fixed and entrenched worldview of his own. Whether that ideological was good or not is another debate but he was by no means someone who liked compromise and he wasn't necessarily pragmatic either. He simply did a good job of convincing everyone else he was.
Being angry and furious though is completely different to actually committing acts of terrorism. You see this a lot when groups like Antifa are compared to the far-right, but the far-rights record when it comes to actually killing people is much, much worse. And you can't try to divorce views of each group for where they're approaching politics - a group of people who are angry at exploitative rich corporations or government figures just aren't as bad as groups who are really annoyed that they can't lynch black people anymore.
Historically the far-left obviously have some absolutely atrocious crimes to answer for when it comes to many communist states etc, but in modern terms people like AOC and Bernie Sanders in the US quite obviously just aren't as bad as far-right Neo-Nazis. And yet there's this weird tendency to equate the increasing confidence of the left with the emboldening of the far-right, in spite of the vastly different nature of the changes on either side.
Talks about conspiracy theorising Marxists yet in his very next breath..
You think voting demographics play no part in Labour's recent lurch into brazen antisemitism?
To clarify, you believe Labour is becoming anti semetic to gain votes from Muslims?
No I think the far left of the labour party have always been as they are now. I think the total inaction and lack of concern for the growing prominence of antisemitism once Corbyn was elected was partly down to the (naive) belief that it wasn't actually going to cost them votes.
What's that got to do with your original comment that Labour would "much rather have the Muslims than the Jews on their side"?
One of the underlying demographic imbalances that explain why they thought it wouldn't cost them votes. It's one thing to want to exploit pro-Palestinian sentiment in Muslim communities, but it's another to then not care at all in the instances where that sentiment crossed over into anti-Jewish hatred.
Yeah, I don't think you're in any position to be criticising others as conspiracy theorists.
Just out of curiosity; is calling Israel a cnutish country for their actions considered anti-semite?
Even then no left wing person would agree with that if that is what labour is doing so I don't really see your points. Labour is more left leaning in comparison to the conservatives but absolutely no one believes they an extreme far left group.
It doesnt, as obviously talking about the government of a country and its actions is quite different to commenting on the people. But, you just know that someone is waiting with sweaty finger tips ready to pounce, and insert all sorts of shit you didnt actually say, just so they can call you a jew hating nazi **** or something.
Sorry, I just need some clarity. Is politics now so fecking skewed that we have a genuine argument that Labour are a hard left Marxist party who are happily fostering anti-semitism to exploit the Muslim voting power base? The benefits if which would, of course, totally outweigh the votes lost by disgusting their left wing, and therefore politically opposed to any form of racism, voting base?
As for centrism: the centre ground in the UK as a whole is now quite right (witness Labour vote collapse in Scotland as UK centre is very right of Scotland centre) and is wholly relative.
Also, whilst compromise is good, it is not exactly clear to me what the middle ground that can be achieved with hard right racists is. It's a pretty entrenched view that doesn't really lend itself to mature debate. I have no doubt people see Corbyn as hard left. He is not to me (although this should not be confused with advocacy). I see the Tories as hard right. They are clearly not to a good chunk of England.
The Good Friday agreement is cited as an example of compromise between two implacable sides. And it is a good example...except that the right are doing everything they can to destroy it, deliberately and through indifference depending upon which party you look at.
As for centrism: the centre ground in the UK as a whole is now quite right (witness Labour vote collapse in Scotland as UK centre is very right of Scotland centre) and is wholly relative.
Also, whilst compromise is good, it is not exactly clear to me what the middle ground that can be achieved with hard right racists is. It's a pretty entrenched view that doesn't really lend itself to mature debate. I have no doubt people see Corbyn as hard left. He is not to me (although this should not be confused with advocacy). I see the Tories as hard right. They are clearly not to a good chunk of England.
The Good Friday agreement is cited as an example of compromise between two implacable sides. And it is a good example...except that the right are doing everything they can to destroy it, deliberately and through indifference depending upon which party you look at.
What have you done to the political correctness thread
At least hobbers has found a form of anti-racism that he can use to peddle his idiotic racist conspiracy theories. Just like the worst of the far left.
The left are full of wankers, and the right are full of wankers. I’m a leftie, but I don’t like most of us
The right are worse though purely for their beliefs. But then I would say that I guess. The right won’t jump down your throat if you disagree with them like the left do, though.
The right are worse though purely for their beliefs. But then I would say that I guess. The right won’t jump down your throat if you disagree with them like the left do, though.
Well put, as so often. I have a limited grasp of British politics and probably deviating views on some details, but couldn't agree more with the main point.
Last edited: