How good is our squad, really?

If we look at each position, here is my view on the 4 positions

GK position
Good? Or not? - flawless, nothing needs to be said about this position

Defence
Good or bad? - it's a position in terms of RB and CB Positions, that does need an overhaul, rafeal jones smalling Evans are just not good enough in many ways, rojo a good squad player, shaw has not got going yet
Who should be moved on? Pick any of smalling jones Evans and Rafeal

Midfield
Good? Or bad? - It's been improved, but it's lacking in speed and still for me not good enough in CM. We have no real quality out wide, di Maria is not been used properly, and mata just makes us slower. So in all we still need a CM and another 2 wide players to inject speed and acceleration into the midfield
Who should be moved on? VG should cash in on mata use Herrera in that position, and probably cash in on janazaj is well, and look to buy players who can give us what we are missing, pace and fluency to hurt teams

Attack
Good or bad? - Same has mata and janazaj they are just too slow, and let's face it the strikers are ageing is well. None of the current strikers play well together, and that position is desperately need injected with new life to give us a dynamic threat that mata rooney RVP and falcao don't give us.
Who should be moved on? Move RVP on, don't sign falcao on a long contract, and use that money to buy a younger striker

So in all we got very little pace and movement to hurt teams, everything is a slow build up. The hall mark of united's golden generation between 1992-08 was players ability to break teams on the counter, pin them back and a relentless never say die attitude that we played to the final whistle
 
DomesticTadpole said:
It was never going to take one transfer window and as it looks like we won't do anything this one, the summer will hopefully sort it out.
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it's been 3 , two under Moist in which we f'd it up. at least this last one certain players knew they we goners.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
That is more down to poor deals in the past. Chelsea and City spent a lot of money, then have improved it gradually over a number of seasons. We have held onto players for too long, thinking we were fine, so players who would have improved us passed us by. We have seriously under invested on the defence, buying English young players who we were hoping to be the next best thing. We are beginning to come to our senses and it will take time to put it all right. We have made some changes but more will be needed, especially in that defence. The midfield only needs one and a winger. The strikers if we are going to move Rooney back up there, they are fine.
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One guy brought up an interesting point, ever since Ronaldo left we have acted like a very mediocre club. The way this club has built the squad since Ronaldo moved on, has been nothing short of pathetic. Between 2007-13 we never bought one CM player, and just let our midfield decline to breaking point, and a defence so bad it topped our engine room, and that's an achievement in itself. Yet the club still tried to tell the fans we are still an attractive club, not when they sell Ronaldo and replace quality with garbage
 
mu77 said:
it's been 3 , two under Moist in which we f'd it up. at least this last one certain players knew they we goners.
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You could say it was longer than that tbh. SAF was very guilty of letting things slide, especially the midfield. He brought back Scholes instead of buying a replacement. We heard there was nobody better out there, maybe for the Scholes of a few years earlier, but not the later one. He bought Smalling and Jones, who are always picking up injuries and were we really thinking they would be as good as Rio and Vidic in their pomp? We need to sell a couple of defenders, then add top class replacements. Add another midfielder and a winger to go with what we have. Make sure we sell the players who are out on loan to free up wages. Sorry as well Fletch has to go and for goodness sake put Anderson out of his misery, or is that our misery.
 
Oneunited26 said:
One guy brought up an interesting point, ever since Ronaldo left we have acted like a very mediocre club. The way this club has built the squad since Ronaldo moved on, has been nothing short of pathetic. Between 2007-13 we never bought one CM player, and just let our midfield decline to breaking point, and a defence so bad it topped our engine room, and that's an achievement in itself. Yet the club still tried to tell the fans we are still an attractive club, not when they sell Ronaldo and replace quality with garbage
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I think since we sold Ronaldo we have seen dollar signs in our eyes, that instead of just going out and buying the best, they have bought players thinking they are the next Ronaldo. We struck it lucky with Ronaldo big time.
 
Good goalkeeping
Terrible defence
Average in both midfield and attack.

Unbalanced, slow, predictable, mistake prone and above all injury prone too. We need vast improvement everywhere, good job we're rich...

DomesticTadpole said:
I think since we sold Ronaldo we have seen dollar signs in our eyes, that instead of just going out and buying the best, they have bought players thinking they are the next Ronaldo. We struck it lucky with Ronaldo big time.
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Think about it really, our entire success over the past twenty years has been lucky. We'll never get another class of '92. That they all came through at the same time and they were all so good that we could base the team on them is basically a massive miracle. The way we've been over the past six years or so just shows what might've been if we didn't get that break early on. Perfect circumstances with the formation of the Premier League too.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
You could say it was longer than that tbh. SAF was very guilty of letting things slide, especially the midfield. He brought back Scholes instead of buying a replacement. We heard there was nobody better out there, maybe for the Scholes of a few years earlier, but not the later one. He bought Smalling and Jones, who are always picking up injuries and were we really thinking they would be as good as Rio and Vidic in their pomp? We need to sell a couple of defenders, then add top class replacements. Add another midfielder and a winger to go with what we have. Make sure we sell the players who are out on loan to free up wages. Sorry as well Fletch has to go and for goodness sake put Anderson out of his misery, or is that our misery.
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agreed 100% with your last posts. we've been buying kids/players from mid table teams for ages and that's sometimes what you become. smalling , fulham now relegated , jones blkbrn same , young , look at villa. conversely RVP from le arse , quality but too infrequent. we faffed away the ronaldo money even with winning titles. it wasn't on their backs we did it was it. they are at best squad players on someone elses squad. the dippers did the same with the money for the cannibal.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
I think since we sold Ronaldo we have seen dollar signs in our eyes, that instead of just going out and buying the best, they have bought players thinking they are the next Ronaldo. We struck it lucky with Ronaldo big time.
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I don't think even that, we replace Ronaldo with Valencia, nothing against the guy but he's beyond a poor replacement. Look when WS and robben were available, we settle for obertan and Valencia, pathetic for a club trying to tell everyone they are the biggest with these transfers. I remember sanchez was available, we never looked to sign him.

Never have I seen fergie build his own special bubble between 2009-12 where he ignored so many players, and kept with safety first with the odd RVP and DDG. Now we have gone to the other extreme, spent money but not wisely, just some horrible investments

In all, our investments between 2008 to present has been horrible on 2 different extremes
 
Oneunited26 said:
I don't think even that, we replace Ronaldo with Valencia, nothing against the guy but he's beyond a poor replacement. Look when WS and robben were available, we settle for obertan and Valencia, pathetic for a club trying to tell everyone they are the biggest with these transfers. I remember sanchez was available, we never looked to sign him.

Never have I seen fergie build his own special bubble between 2009-12 where he ignored so many players, and kept with safety first with the odd RVP and DDG. Now we have gone to the other extreme, spent money but not wisely, just some horrible investments

In all, our investments between 2008 to present has been horrible on 2 different extremes
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Bebe, don't forget Bebe.
 
FC Ronaldo said:
That's a very good point. This season you'd be hard pressed to look beyond:

-------------De Gea-------------
-Ivanovic-Terry-Cahill-Azpilicueta
-Hazard--Cesc--Yaya--Di Maria-
--------Costa-----Aguero---------

That said, City only have 2 there also. I guess Ivanovic and Azpilicueta will be the swappable calls.
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Laughable, Silva has been way better than ADM, and Kompany has been better than Cahill/Terry.
 
I sort of agree with the general theme of the OP. I think people are a bit desperate to form the opinion that our squad is actually better than it is, mostly due to the fact that we've spent £200m+ in the last 18 months and the idea that spending money like that wouldn't get you a top notch squad is probably a (apologies for using the word) quite embarrassing thing.

In reality what we've done is sign a massive Belgian who is useful but not quite good enough, a top class #10 who sort of flatters to deceive here, a World XI player who our manager hasn't a clue how to use, a very expensive teenager who can't play the wing back role our manager loves, an expensive Spaniard midfielder who is probably better than all the rest of our midfielders (bar one) yet our manager seems to hate, a once great striker who appears to be struggling, a pretty average yet likeable Argentinian defender, and Blind (who actually does look really good).

I can't shake the feeling myelf that we've just spent all this fecking money and aren't really getting anywhere after doing so, which is a slightly depressing thought. When two of your most despised footballers in the last few years have been amongst your best performers this season in a completely unfamiliar role despite almost everyone wanting rid of them the previous summer, you know something is up.
 
I dont know, we have some great players but the squad as a whole is too unbalanced to be called good imo.
We have 4 midfielders whose best position is no.10 (including rooney because while van gaal is around i suspect thats what he is). And they're probably our 4 best players
Only 1 winger (who's very young). All our potential number 8's have issues of one kind or another.
And personally i dont think carrick is that great. He'd be fine in a midfield 3 with 2 other midfielders who are better than him.

Dont have enough full backs, too many injury prone cb's and theres question marks over all our strikers atm.

Im not particularly worried or jealous of arsenals squad despite that tbh.
Their midfield has some great players (they always do) but they're lacking a good defensive midfielder and the other positions are pretty weak really
 
Cina said:
I sort of agree with the general theme of the OP. I think people are a bit desperate to form the opinion that our squad is actually better than it is, mostly due to the fact that we've spent £200m+ in the last 18 months and the idea that spending money like that wouldn't get you a top notch squad is probably a (apologies for using the word) quite embarrassing thing.

In reality what we've done is sign a massive Belgian who is useful but not quite good enough, a top class #10 who sort of flatters to deceive here, a World XI player who our manager hasn't a clue how to use, a very expensive teenager who can't play the wing back role our manager loves, an expensive Spaniard midfielder who is probably better than all the rest of our midfielders (bar one) yet our manager seems to hate, a once great striker who appears to be struggling, a pretty average yet likeable Argentinian defender, and Blind (who actually does look really good).

I can't shake the feeling myelf that we've just spent all this fecking money and aren't really getting anywhere after doing so, which is a slightly depressing thought. When two of your most despised footballers in the last few years have been amongst your best performers this season in a completely unfamiliar role despite almost everyone wanting rid of them the previous summer, you know something is up.
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Yes, but when you have a weak(ish) spine then all the fancy players in the world won't make a blind bit of difference. No pun intended.

After we absorb a top class CB, an all action midfielder and a CF with pace then we're in business (sort of).
 
RedFish said:
Yes, but when you have a weak(ish) spine then all the fancy players in the world won't make a blind bit of difference. No pun intended.

After we absorb a top class CB, an all action midfielder and a CF with pace then we're in business (sort of).
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Shouldn't we have gone for the spine of the team first then? We've wasted £200m...until we spend more to make them worthwhile...

Not a good strategy at all.
 
Oneunited26 said:
Only in the great mind of Ferguson. Makes you wonder what is worse? Bebe signing? or VG having jones taking the corners? Lol
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makes me wonder what the f fergie was on about when he'd say utter s**te like "no value in the market". oddly he's why. paying 9m for bebe , that could change the supposed value of transfers.
 
caid said:
Its funny, hes probably been our best signing and he was the one people were least enthusiastic about.
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I was very enthusiastic about Blind and constantly said throughout the summer that I was surprised we weren't signing him. Thankfully we did.
 
matherto said:
Shouldn't we have gone for the spine of the team first then? We've wasted £200m...until we spend more to make them worthwhile...

Not a good strategy at all.
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That would have been my preference, but what do I know?! Rio and Vidic leaving = gaping hole. Keane left - still no B2B midfielder etc.

De Gea is the saving grace, yet we'll probably end up selling him for Bale lol :wenger:

TBF, if we do address the spine of the team with the attention it deserves, then having the likes of Di Maria etc is obviously great. It's not every season you get to sign players like that. It's just that there are obvious deficiencies elsewhere in the team. I don't think there is any short cut to dominance. We simply need elite class players in each position to rival Chelsea, City, let alone Real and Bayern.
 
RedFish said:
Yes, but when you have a weak(ish) spine then all the fancy players in the world won't make a blind bit of difference. No pun intended.

After we absorb a top class CB, an all action midfielder and a CF with pace then we're in business (sort of).
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isn't that basically what I was implying though? We've spent £200m and not really bought the players we should have to fix our fundamental flaws.

What's really astonishing here is that despite all this money spent to try and fix our horrendously defunct midfield of the last few years, we are still over reliant on a 33 year old Carrick and using Wayne Rooney (our best fecking forward) there. It's unbelievable really.
 
mu77 said:
makes me wonder what the f fergie was on about when he'd say utter s**te like "no value in the market". oddly he's why. paying 9m for bebe , that could change the supposed value of transfers.
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One way or another this model value for money seems to be spend cheap on players, and this model which started in 2009 is the prime reason why in the end we finished 7th, and and still struggling to get some sort of balance in the squad.
 
Cina said:
isn't that basically what I was implying though? We've spent £200m and not really bought the players we should have to fix our fundamental flaws.

What's really astonishing here is that despite all this money spent to try and fix our horrendously defunct midfield of the last few years, we are still over reliant on a 33 year old Carrick and using Wayne Rooney (our best fecking forward) there. It's unbelievable really.
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You're right. However, had we sorted out the centre of the defence and CM, then people would be asking where the creativity was? ''Solid, but unimaginative I hear the cries''. Either way, I think after (and before) Fergie left, the whole team needed a revamp. Whichever way this was to be undertaken, it was always going to be a bit painful. That we will all watch the next transfer window with interest is a huge understatement. LVG's tenure at the club depends on it, me thinks.
 
Oneunited26 said:
One way or another this model value for money seems to be spend cheap on players, and this model which started in 2009 is the prime reason why in the end we finished 7th, and and still struggling to get some sort of balance in the squad.
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We dithered in the transfer market, when we should have struck. We're paying the price now.
 
Cina said:
I sort of agree with the general theme of the OP. I think people are a bit desperate to form the opinion that our squad is actually better than it is, mostly due to the fact that we've spent £200m+ in the last 18 months and the idea that spending money like that wouldn't get you a top notch squad is probably a (apologies for using the word) quite embarrassing thing.

In reality what we've done is sign a massive Belgian who is useful but not quite good enough, a top class #10 who sort of flatters to deceive here, a World XI player who our manager hasn't a clue how to use, a very expensive teenager who can't play the wing back role our manager loves, an expensive Spaniard midfielder who is probably better than all the rest of our midfielders (bar one) yet our manager seems to hate, a once great striker who appears to be struggling, a pretty average yet likeable Argentinian defender, and Blind (who actually does look really good).

I can't shake the feeling myelf that we've just spent all this fecking money and aren't really getting anywhere after doing so, which is a slightly depressing thought. When two of your most despised footballers in the last few years have been amongst your best performers this season in a completely unfamiliar role despite almost everyone wanting rid of them the previous summer, you know something is up.
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Yup. That's exactly where I'm coming from.

New signings aside, the growing realisation that Nani, Hernandez, Rafael, Evans, Jones and Smalling might not turn out to be the world beaters we once hoped/assumed they would be; combined with giving up on Kagawa, Welbeck and Cleverley entirely and RvP's accelerated aging really does make our squad seem a pale shadow of what we thought it was when Fergie retired. That's a huge chunk of our squad that may need upgrading pronto.

Goes without saying Van Gaal has made some very strange decisions but I do think people might be underestimating the size of the task he took on. Just like they did with his predecessor.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yup. That's exactly where I'm coming from.

New signings aside, the growing realisation that Nani, Hernandez, Rafael, Evans, Jones and Smalling might not turn out to be the world beaters we once hoped/assumed they would be; combined with giving up on Kagawa, Welbeck and Cleverley entirely and RvP's accelerated aging really does make our squad seem a pale shadow of what we thought it was when Fergie retired. That's a huge chunk of our squad that may need upgrading pronto.

Goes without saying Van Gaal has made some very strange decisions but I do think people might be underestimating the size of the task he took on. Just like they did with his predecessor.
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Yeah, if there's one thing I've learned in the last two years since Fergie retired, it's that he genuinely did a bit of a miracle by winning the title with that side. I remember at the time a lot of people claimed that we only won the title because of him, which I used to regularly dismiss as nonsense and say we actually did have a very good squad, but over the last two years I've come to the sad realisation that it probably is the case.

I almost wish he wasn't so bloody good at managing a team so that we would've actually had to go out and strengthen more while he was still here!
 
RedFish said:
We dithered in the transfer market, when we should have struck. We're paying the price now.
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It's a combination of poor fergie rebuilding since 2008, berbatov started the wrong trend, and we have gone down the wrong path.

When any fan blames moyes for our 7th place finish, saying he took over a group of champions, not factoring in ageing players like Ferdinand vidic Evra RVP looking down on moyes, and these guys taking over the asylum and let's face it the worst midfield we have had since 04, it is no surprise where we are at.

VG is making some weird decisions, almost testing let's see how I can play players out of positions with a system that does it suit the players. It shows how difficult of a squad it is too manage, especially when we got to many attacking players who are way too similar with very little movement and pace to hurt teams, and injury prone defenders relying on Valencia and Young has the heart beat of our creativity and our width, is still a grave concern
 
Oneunited26 said:
It's a combination of poor fergie rebuilding since 2008, berbatov started the wrong trend, and we have gone down the wrong path.

When any fan blames moyes for our 7th place finish, saying he took over a group of champions, not factoring in ageing players like Ferdinand vidic Evra RVP looking down on moyes, and these guys taking over the asylum and let's face it the worst midfield we have had since 04, it is no surprise where we are at.

VG is making some weird decisions, almost testing let's see how I can play players out of positions with a system that does it suit the players. It shows how difficult of a squad it is too manage, especially when we got to many attacking players who are way too similar, and injury prone defenders relying on Valencia and Young has the heart beat of our creativity and our width, is still a grave concern
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problem was with him though wasn't it. you spotted it he didn't. you should have got the job.
 
Oneunited26 said:
It's a combination of poor fergie rebuilding since 2008, berbatov started the wrong trend, and we have gone down the wrong path.

When any fan blames moyes for our 7th place finish, saying he took over a group of champions, not factoring in ageing players like Ferdinand vidic Evra RVP looking down on moyes, and these guys taking over the asylum and let's face it the worst midfield we have had since 04, it is no surprise where we are at.

VG is making some weird decisions, almost testing let's see how I can play players out of positions with a system that does it suit the players. It shows how difficult of a squad it is too manage, especially when we got to many attacking players who are way too similar with very little movement and pace to hurt teams, and injury prone defenders relying on Valencia and Young has the heart beat of our creativity and our width, is still a grave concern
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Rio had one of his best seasons in SAF's last year. Then Moyes came and him and Vidic just seemed to hit a brick wall. This season I would say RvP has done the same to an extent. It does happen and happens suddenly. I don't think Moyes was entirely to blame for last season, but he still wasn't the right man for the job. As someone said the additions LvG makes in the summer could make or break him.
 
mu77 said:
problem was with him though wasn't it. you spotted it he didn't. you should have got the job.
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We should not even be discussing we could do a better job, when people at the club should know what they are doing, which always frustrates me. The people getting paid good money cannot even make the right appointments. Even charlton is guilty of appointing guys like moyes, by saying we turned down mourinho for ethical reasons
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Rio had one of his best seasons in SAF's last year. Then Moyes came and him and Vidic just seemed to hit a brick wall. This season I would say RvP has done the same to an extent. It does happen and happens suddenly. I don't think Moyes was entirely to blame for last season, but he still wasn't the right man for the job. As someone said the additions LvG makes in the summer could make or break him.
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We all know it was one of the worst decisions any club has ever done, choosing moyes over someone like mourinho. But it should lot change the fact the players never helped the situation, holding onto their spots when they were coming to the end of their careers. When the players make their mind up september probably, it was always a long season ahead
 
Oneunited26 said:
It's a combination of poor fergie rebuilding since 2008, berbatov started the wrong trend, and we have gone down the wrong path.

When any fan blames moyes for our 7th place finish, saying he took over a group of champions, not factoring in ageing players like Ferdinand vidic Evra RVP looking down on moyes, and these guys taking over the asylum and let's face it the worst midfield we have had since 04, it is no surprise where we are at.

VG is making some weird decisions, almost testing let's see how I can play players out of positions with a system that does it suit the players. It shows how difficult of a squad it is too manage, especially when we got to many attacking players who are way too similar with very little movement and pace to hurt teams, and injury prone defenders relying on Valencia and Young has the heart beat of our creativity and our width, is still a grave concern
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We are now paying the price for appointing Moyes, his dithering and trying to apply his Everton model of scouting and recruitment wasn't what we needed. He took on some problems, did nothing about them apart from buytwo players who we didn't really need and who aren't really first eleven players. It wasn't all his fault, problems go back a long way but that summer was a defining point, if we had made the right additions we could have stayed in the top four and rebuilt from a position of relative strength. This summer we took action but it was too little too late and it's debateable how much quality we actually brought in, quantity over quality has been an issue for too long.

We need to build a good starting eleven and go from there, once we have that we can build the squad around it, we need 5 players minimum in the summer all who go straight into the team, that's not going to be easy. We need to be ruthless and establish a strong transfer strategy for the short, medium and long term. Quick fixes like falcao, trying to shoe horn players into a team isn't the way forward.
 
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Cina said:
Yeah, if there's one thing I've learned in the last two years since Fergie retired, it's that he genuinely did a bit of a miracle by winning the title with that side. I remember at the time a lot of people claimed that we only won the title because of him, which I used to regularly dismiss as nonsense and say we actually did have a very good squad, but over the last two years I've come to the sad realisation that it probably is the case.

I almost wish he wasn't so bloody good at managing a team so that we would've actually had to go out and strengthen more while he was still here!
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Yeah, the more we learn about his squad the more miraculous that last league title seems. Hilarious with hindsight that you had people belly-aching about our approach (zombie passing etc.). Not only did Fergie have to drag an underpowered squad to finish ahead of City and Chelsea, he should have done it with a swagger, dammit!
 
Oneunited26 said:
We should not even be discussing we could do a better job, when people at the club should know what they are doing, which always frustrates me. The people getting paid good money cannot even make the right appointments. Even charlton is guilty of appointing guys like moyes, by saying we turned down mourinho for ethical reasons
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as if. they wanted moyes , he was their boy. they should have paid the price. ethical reasons at a football club that has logos every place they can. laughable really.

Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, the more we learn about his squad the more miraculous that last league title seems. Hilarious with hindsight that you had people belly-aching about our approach (zombie passing etc.). Not only did Fergie have to drag an underpowered squad to finish ahead of City and Chelsea, he should have done it with a swagger, dammit!
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he did get to appoint his replacement and did go out with a swagger winning the league by march. it was his "underpowered squad" that he won it with.
 
At the moment I’m finding it hard to pick the starting 11, it’s nothing to do with the level of talent but more to do with what each player can give us. If you had a player with the equal mix of Fellaini & Herrera, a Centre back with the combined abilities of Jones, Smalling and Evans or a forward player with the pace of Wilson and the experience of RVP then we would be on the right track.
Unfortunately our weakness is coming through the spine of the team, because of this it is having a negative effect on our overall play, tactics and formation, players like Di Maria, Falcao, RVP, Rooney, Januzaj, Shaw, Rafael, Carrick have had to change the way they play to suit a style of football that is not playing to theirs, the team’s or the Clubs strength.

On paper we have a fantastic team, our squad hasn’t been as strong for quite a few years, but given the injuries we’ve had its been impossible to see how good we are let alone how good we can become. For me we are two or three players (Starters) away from challenging for the league and another two or three (Squad players) away from being serious Champions league contenders.
 
Roboc7 said:
We are now paying the price for appointing Moyes, his dithering and trying to apply his Everton model of scouting and recruitment wasn't what we needed. He took on some problems, did nothing about them apart from buytwo players who we didn't really need and who aren't really first eleven players. It's. It all his fault, problems go back a long way but that summer was a defining point, if we had made the right additions we could have stayed in the top four and rebuilt from a position of relative strength. This summer we took action but it was too little too late and it's debateable how much quality we actually brought in, quantity over quality has been an issue for too long.

We need to build a good starting eleven and go from there, once we have that we can build the squad around it, we need 5 players minimum in the summer all who go straight into the team, that's not going to be easy. We need to be ruthless and establish a strong transfer strategy for the short, medium and long term. Quick fixes like falcao, trying to shoe horn players into a team isn't the way forward.
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All Moyes' fault? Hardly. Van Gaal's struggles this season have confirmed that the squad Moyes inherited was nowhere near as good as many on here claimed. He clearly wasn't up to the job but the challenge he faced was massively under-estimated. Hence Van Gaal is having a hell of struggle to get more points out of the team than Moyes did.

Also worth noting that Moyes' signings have actually been among our best players under Van Gaal. It's this summer's arrivals who have struggled. Hopefully they'll bed in and have a better second season too.
 
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