Is it fair to worship Guardiola at this point? | The Ball Did It

[Womp]

It's unfair to use unlimited funds as an excuse because we've basically had unlimited funds since Fergie retired but managed to build absolutely nothing.

That's down to us not having a plan. City were confident of getting Pep years before he came and built a platform for him to come in and tinker with. They've changed their philosophy, youth systems, their grounds etc. all for him. Jose has come into a squad that in 3 years has had one joke of a manager with no idea, followed by a manager with a posession based style. If we wanted Jose (which we obviously did) then why did we hire LVG? If we wanted to go down the posession route, why did we hire Jose?

If we want to get to the top, we need to decide on an identity and bring in players etc. that suit that style. We can't just keep chopping and changing managers and players. Not all players are good at posession, just as not all players are good at fast transitions and counter-attacking. We are just throwing money and hoping it sticks.

Don't think the club really knows what it's doing. Also yes, we've spent a feck ton of cash, but we don't have the same resources City do, no-one except PSG does.

 

[MuFc_1992]

That's down to us not having a plan. City were confident of getting Pep years before he came and built a platform for him to come in and tinker with. They've changed their philosophy, youth systems, their grounds etc. all for him. Jose has come into a squad that in 3 years has had one joke of a manager with no idea, followed by a manager with a posession based style. If we wanted Jose (which we obviously did) then why did we hire LVG? If we wanted to go down the posession route, why did we hire Jose?

If we want to get to the top, we need to decide on an identity and bring in players etc. that suit that style. We can't just keep chopping and changing managers and players. Not all players are good at posession, just as not all players are good at fast transitions and counter-attacking. We are just throwing money and hoping it sticks.

Don't think the club really knows what it's doing. Also yes, we've spent a feck ton of cash, but we don't have the same resources City do, no-one except PSG does.

We cannot use the resources excuse considering how much revenue we have and how much money we've spent. The only reason we'e parking the bus at anfield while city are blowing teams apart is down to the manager. You cannot blame the squad for our performance last night because we managed to win at Anfield and complete outplayed them under LVG.

 

[Womp]

We cannot use the resources excuse considering how much revenue we have and how much money we've spent. The only reason we'e parking the bus at anfield while city are blowing teams apart is down to the manager. You cannot blame the squad for our performance last night because we managed to win at Anfield and complete outplayed them under LVG.

Yes because a result that happened nearly 3 years ago has any relevance to the current day. What a load of rubbish. To suggest it's down to the manager is completely feasible, but to say it's not down to the players at all, due to a result 3 years ago, under completely different circumstances with two completely different squads is a joke. Not to add we also got annihilated by Liverpool in the Europa League under LVG.

Using your logic, we should be struggling against Liverpool at Anfield, since SAF did in his last two meetings against them. Doesn't matter that it was half a decade ago.

Your response also has feck all to do with what I've posted, so there's also that.

 

[breakout67]

Pep is a 'fraud' because of the cult of Pep who worship him. There are some saying Pep is among the GOAT when he is an imitation of Cruyff who is only among the GOAT because he was the first to do what he did.

If you don't worship the ground he walks on then you arent a real football supporter and don't know good football. You have to say Pep is the perfect manager or else you will have his worshipers on your back.

For example; it is a fact that Pep falls out with strong personalities and he requires a high technical level from all of his players. This means that his system is a very 'glass canon' type of system; not very flexible towards the qualities of his players but when it works it is very powerful. He is a sports car manager; that requires very expensive parts to function well.

You will never see Pep win big competitions like Ferguson, Mourinho, Simeone who win with players that are simply not that high quality. However, Pep will win in a possession based way that only a amanger like LVG can mimic. No manager is perfect.

 

[AshRK]

I am not a Pepista or Bielsista kind of guy, in Portugal I support Sporting instead Benfica, If I was Dutch I would support Feyenoord instead Ajax, don't like to talk football with Barcelona fans because I think they are more arrogant than Real Madrid or Atletico Madrid fans.

But those who say Guardiola is a fraud live in a fantasy bubble and only measure football by statistics and trophies, even with expensive players he improves them and makes them better, just look at Sterling or Delph playing under him, doesn't mean they will win the league, maybe Mou can get it right ...

I also hate when people call pep a fraud, he is not but I think you are over exaggerating when you say he improves them. Sterling started last season also great but then faded. He is still the same inconsistent player. Nothing much changed just that right now he is playing with confidence. Not too long ago sane was playing left wing back under pep and he like sterling looked very inconsistent, again confidence plays a big part and sane as for now is doing great.

I said after their Liverpool thrashing , that's what pep needed. He got it. Now teams are fearing him and will roll over once they concede one. Credit to pep for building that aura but it just takes couple of bad results and things could again look bleak.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Maybe people should bump this thread when there are actual reasons to criticise Pep.

Even then do not bump it this thread has been a trainwreck from the start.

 

[MuFc_1992]

Yes because a result that happened nearly 3 years ago has any relevance to the current day. What a load of rubbish. To suggest it's down to the manager is completely feasible, but to say it's not down to the players at all, due to a result 3 years ago, under completely different circumstances with two completely different squads is a joke. Not to add we also got annihilated by Liverpool in the Europa League under LVG.

Using your logic, we should be struggling against Liverpool at Anfield, since SAF did in his last two meetings against them. Doesn't matter that it was half a decade ago.

Your response also has feck all to do with what I've posted, so there's also that.

But the whole argument has been that Jose inherited an inferior team but that inferior team was capable of destroying Liverpool at their own ground and we could hold our own and outplay teams better than us on paper.

 

[Womp]

But the whole argument has been that Jose inherited an inferior team but that inferior team was capable of destroying Liverpool at their own ground and we could hold our own and outplay teams better than us on paper.

That wasn't the argument at all. The argument was that we have a squad that has been created by managers with different ideals and methods, thus the money not being invested as wisely as City has. We don't seem to have a plan. If we wanted Jose all along, why didn't we work towards building a squad that would have suited him more? Instead of going for a manager like LVG who plays completely different football to Jose. It hasn't made much sense.

Also Liverpool are a far stronger side now and as I already mentioned - Liverpool absolutely annihilated us over two legs in the Europa League then.

 

[MuFc_1992]

That wasn't the argument at all. The argument was that we have a squad that has been created by managers with different ideals and methods, thus the money not being invested as wisely as City has. We don't seem to have a plan. If we wanted Jose all along, why didn't we work towards building a squad that would have suited him more? Instead of going for a manager like LVG who plays completely different football to Jose. It hasn't made much sense.

Also Liverpool are a far stronger side now and as I already mentioned - Liverpool absolutely annihilated us over two legs in the Europa League then.

Of course we couldn't have planned for Jose when he was managing Chelsea. Also you don't need meticulous planning and squad building for defensive managers because their system is a lot easier to implement and doesn't require players with excellent technical ability ie. Fellaini ).

 

[Womp]

Of course we couldn't have planned for Jose when he was managing Chelsea. Also you don't need meticulous planning and squad building for defensive managers because their system is a lot easier to implement and doesn't require players with excellent technical ability ie. Fellaini ).

Yes which is why he bought Pogba and Matic as his obvious two midfielders. Fellaini is a very important squad player to him, he's making use of him, but he's hardly the preferred choice. The whole point is we haven't planned for anyone. We've got a squad of a lot of different plans and it still doesn't seem obvious which route the club wants to take. Going from clueless to possession to counter-attacking football in the span of 3 years is hardly a natural progression.

The sooner we get a DOF the better.

 

[SCP]

I also hate when people call pep a fraud, he is not but I think you are over exaggerating when you say he improves them.

Just compare Sterling playing for City or England (ok National team is different), but what I mean is the individual performances of the players improve because they are colectively excelent, and that is responsability of the manager.

By the way I don't think he is the only 1 who does it, there are good examples over Europe, Sarri is maybe the best of all them, and I am not part of the discussion who is the best or how football should be played, but one thing is United fans trying to believe he is a fraud because he is City manager, another thing is twisting facts to suit the narrative.

By the way, I still think without Mendy is still possible United or even Spurs can win the league, even if I think he will make Delph performances good for the team, like I said I am not a Pepista, and even don't like very much Barcelona, but another thing is reality, I don't judge quality of management only by results and statistics, Sarri didn't won nothing in Italy and for me is way better than Allegri, but these are just opinions, nothing else.

If he really is a fraud, players like Lahm, Boateng, Muller, Xavi, Xabi Alonso, Dani Alves, are just a bunch of liars, by the way, it is impossible in todays market that the top teams don't spend more money in transfer fees, Mourinho also spends at United and nobody says he is a fraud.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Since the thread started, 8-0-0, 32 goals for, 3 against.

Spoiler

Brwneeeeeeed!

I knew it. This thread totally jinxed it.

 

[AshRK]

Just compare Sterling playing for City or England (ok National team is different), but what I mean is the individual performances of the players improve because they are colectively excelent, and that is responsability of the manager.

By the way I don't think he is the only 1 who does it, there are good examples over Europe, Sarri is maybe the best of all them, and I am not part of the discussion who is the best or how football should be played, but one thing is United fans trying to believe he is a fraud because he is City manager, another thing is twisting facts to suit the narrative.

By the way, I still think without Mendy is still possible United or even Spurs can win the league, even if I think he will make Delph performances good for the team, like I said I am not a Pepista, and even don't like very much Barcelona, but another thing is reality, I don't judge quality of management only by results and statistics, Sarri didn't won nothing in Italy and for me is way better than Allegri, but these are just opinions, nothing else.

If he really is a fraud, players like Lahm, Boateng, Muller, Xavi, Xabi Alonso, Dani Alves, are just a bunch of liars, by the way, it is impossible in todays market that the top teams don't spend more money in transfer fees, Mourinho also spends at United and nobody says he is a fraud.

Jose has been called every name under the sun, so don't know why you think jose is treated as some sort of god and pep faces all the abuse, of anything pep has always been treated as some messiah.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Jose has been called every name under the sun, so don't know why you think jose is treated as some sort of god and pep faces all the abuse, of anything pep has always been treated as some messiah.

Everyone here is arguing against strawmen

 

[SCP]

Jose has been called every name under the sun, so don't know why you think jose is treated as some sort of god and pep faces all the abuse, of anything pep has always been treated as some messiah.

I was mentioning this specific thread, but don't make me talk about Mourinho after watching today the first full match of United, hopefully for United it was their worse performance of the season...

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He's a great manager. Have to admit what he gets out of his attacking players is terrific. The likes of Sane and Sterling would be absolutely loving the way he's setting the team up.

I'm still hoping their frailties in defence and Cm show up soon. But as of now he's doing very well.

 

[El cangrejo]

For example; it is a fact that Pep falls out with strong personalities and he requires a high technical level from all of his players. This means that his system is a very 'glass canon' type of system; not very flexible towards the qualities of his players but when it works it is very powerful. He is a sports car manager; that requires very expensive parts to function well..

I don't really consider this a valid criticism. It's like saying haute cuisine is rubbish because it can't be prepared in a microwave.

There's a reason why nobody pays three figures for a Pot Noodle.

 

[Manchester Dan]

It feels like everyone who has joined under Pep has largely hit the ground running and so we’ve just constantly been improving. Interesting to look at his signings and their current ages, other than Bravo and Nolito it looks like an excellent list. We’ve not had a hit rate like that in our entire period of spending, especially given how young some of them were bought.

Mendy - 23
Walker - 27
B Silva - 23
Ederson - 24
Danilo - 26
Douglas Luiz - 19
Stones - 23
Sane - 21
Jesus - 20
Gundogan - 26
Bravo - 34
Nolito - 31
Moreno - 21

 

[notcool]

Their team has better quality in it (at least in terms of dynamism), and they play quicker, more accurate football. It's no secret formula.

You're right. Being a manager is easy: just play quick, accurate football. Why haven't I thought of that before?

Can criticise his spending all you want, he plays a brave brand of football and has gotten the players he wants.

Not brave, his team is set up so they won't lose the ball. Good football, but not brave.

Well, I hate Pep, I hate him because he was a fraud as a player and because he has a bad mouth.

What? What does that even mean? And why would that make you hate him?

 

[AgentP]

It feels like everyone who has joined under Pep has largely hit the ground running and so we’ve just constantly been improving. Interesting to look at his signings and their current ages, other than Bravo and Nolito it looks like an excellent list. We’ve not had a hit rate like that in our entire period of spending, especially given how young some of them were bought.

Mendy - 23
Walker - 27
B Silva - 23
Ederson - 24
Danilo - 26
Douglas Luiz - 19
Stones - 23
Sane - 21
Jesus - 20
Gundogan - 26
Bravo - 34
Nolito - 31
Moreno - 21

Yeah, Pep did good. Now all you need is a young defensive midfielder and another CB to partner Stones. Getting Sanchez doesn't even seem necessary now.

 

[Manchester Dan]

Yeah, Pep did good. Now all you need is a young defensive midfielder and another CB to partner Stones. Getting Sanchez doesn't even seem necessary now.

I actually think he’ll pass on Sanchez now, he has a year to decide where to invest that £60m instead. Especially when we have to replace Aguero at some point in the next few seasons, and Sanchez is the same age.

He could realistically bring in another 2-3 players and if he gets that right we could finally challenge for the CL over the next few seasons. It’s not always easy to “get it right”, but I feel like he knows what he wants these days.

 

[gibers]

Yeah, Pep did good. Now all you need is a young defensive midfielder and another CB to partner Stones. Getting Sanchez doesn't even seem necessary now.

They need another LB as well.

I actually think he’ll pass on Sanchez now, he has a year to decide where to invest that £60m instead. Especially when we have to replace Aguero at some point in the next few seasons, and Sanchez is the same age.

He could realistically bring in another 2-3 players and if he gets that right we could finally challenge for the CL over the next few seasons. It’s not always easy to “get it right”, but I feel like he knows what he wants these days.

Has Aguero renew? I can see them getting Sanchez and flogging off Aguero. The way they play without him is much better. Aguero instead of Jesus against chelsea would have been a diff. game. Kun is a good player but for me he still doesn't fit what pep wants and you can tell. Pep had to include Jesus in the team with him to get the best out of him because as a lone #9 he is not a Pep player.

 

[Member 90887]

It feels like everyone who has joined under Pep has largely hit the ground running and so we’ve just constantly been improving. Interesting to look at his signings and their current ages, other than Bravo and Nolito it looks like an excellent list. We’ve not had a hit rate like that in our entire period of spending, especially given how young some of them were bought.

Mendy - 23
Walker - 27
B Silva - 23
Ederson - 24
Danilo - 26
Douglas Luiz - 19
Stones - 23
Sane - 21
Jesus - 20
Gundogan - 26
Bravo - 34
Nolito - 31
Moreno - 21

Let's put some perspective on what you wrote here, he did a good job yes, but it's not as good as you're making it out (i'm talking about his transfers)

Mendy - 23 - Agree, he looks real good (50M£ for a full back, he has to work out)
Walker - 27 - PL Proven and in his prime + bought from the team that finished 2, and costs more than 50M£, that was always going to work
B Silva - 23 - Haven't shown anything yet (hasn't played enough) for a player that costs 45M£
Ederson - 24 - He has been good until now - 37M£ for a GK
Danilo - 26 - Meh, been a back up, did his job but nothing more than that.
Douglas Luiz - 19 - haven't seen him yet
Stones - 23 - lol, 50M£
Sane - 21 - has been very good and well worth the 45M£ paid for him
Jesus - 20 - Has also been very and i would say, given the impact and the amount paid (28M£), it's pep's best buy
Gundogan - 26 - injuries till now, not a good investment, let's see if he turns it around.
Bravo - 34 - a complete failure
Nolito - 31 - another miss
Moreno - 21 - haven't seen him yet

these are players that cost around 400M£.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It feels like everyone who has joined under Pep has largely hit the ground running and so we’ve just constantly been improving. Interesting to look at his signings and their current ages, other than Bravo and Nolito it looks like an excellent list. We’ve not had a hit rate like that in our entire period of spending, especially given how young some of them were bought.

Mendy - 23

Not sure considering how it's gone so far that he can be called a "hit". Should eventually be though, good player is Mendy.

 

[El cangrejo]

Let's put some perspective on what you wrote here, he did a good job yes, but it's not as good as you're making it out (i'm talking about his transfers)

Mendy - 23 - Agree, he looks real good (50M£ for a full back, he has to work out)
Walker - 27 - PL Proven and in his prime + bought from the team that finished 2, and costs more than 50M£, that was always going to work
B Silva - 23 - Haven't shown anything yet (hasn't played enough) for a player that costs 45M£
Ederson - 24 - He has been good until now - 37M£ for a GK
Danilo - 26 - Meh, been a back up, did his job but nothing more than that.
Douglas Luiz - 19 - haven't seen him yet
Stones - 23 - lol, 50M£
Sane - 21 - has been very good and well worth the 45M£ paid for him
Jesus - 20 - Has also been very and i would say, given the impact and the amount paid (28M£), it's pep's best buy
Gundogan - 26 - injuries till now, not a good investment, let's see if he turns it around.
Bravo - 34 - a complete failure
Nolito - 31 - another miss
Moreno - 21 - haven't seen him yet

these are players that cost around 400M£.

I've never seen the fuss with Stones but he's looked the part so far this season.

To put these fees into perspective, Sigurthsson cost 45M and Pickford, Bolasie, Klaasen and Michael Keane cost 25-30M.

 

[GhastlyHun]

Thread title on point, as usual

 

[Thunderhead]

I actually think he’ll pass on Sanchez now, he has a year to decide where to invest that £60m instead. Especially when we have to replace Aguero at some point in the next few seasons, and Sanchez is the same age.

He could realistically bring in another 2-3 players and if he gets that right we could finally challenge for the CL over the next few seasons. It’s not always easy to “get it right”, but I feel like he knows what he wants these days.

I don't, especially if he can get him for £20m or a free

 

[berbatrick]

With the title thread, I thought this was a new thread for jinxing

 

[Laurentiu amt]

You're right. Being a manager is easy: just play quick, accurate football. Why haven't I thought of that before?


Not brave, his team is set up so they won't lose the ball. Good football, but not brave.


What? What does that even mean? And why would that make you hate him?

nandrolone?

 

[Beachryan]

I guess the only caveat is that while both United and City have spent an absolute f*ck ton in the last 3 seasons, United's starting point was far, far worse. We've replaced an entire squad, whereas players like Fernandinho, Silva, Aguero are still pretty integral.

We basically have De Gea.

 

[El cangrejo]

Not brave, his team is set up so they won't lose the ball. Good football, but not brave.

1) The game is won by the team who commits fewer errors.

2) Football favours whoever provokes more errors in the opposition.

3) Away from home, instead of trying to be superior to the opposition, it’s better to encourage their mistakes.

4) Whoever has the ball is more likely to make a mistake.

5) Whoever renounces possession reduces the possibility of making a mistake.

6) Whoever has the ball has fear.

7) Whoever does not have it is thereby stronger.

 

[Treble]

I guess the only caveat is that while both United and City have spent an absolute f*ck ton in the last 3 seasons, United's starting point was far, far worse. We've replaced an entire squad, whereas players like Fernandinho, Silva, Aguero are still pretty integral.

We basically have De Gea.

The starting point was similar: 66 pts season 2015/16. City had more star players but also more old/crap players. Apart form Kompany who was injured most of the time their defenders were a laughing stock. And they had also Navas and Sterling on the wings - both pretty unproductive. Hart wasn't good enough. It's a myth that their squad was better. Their record vs the top 10 teams in 15/16 was absolutely atrocious. Even if Jose had the current Cit squad he would still have parked the bus vs Liverpool. He doesn't know how to play differently in big games away.

 

[sun_tzu]

I guess the only caveat is that while both United and City have spent an absolute f*ck ton in the last 3 seasons, United's starting point was far, far worse. We've replaced an entire squad, whereas players like Fernandinho, Silva, Aguero are still pretty integral.

We basically have De Gea.

And Valencia and Jones... so equally 2 players who play virtually all the time and one who plays when fit

 

[PepG]

Brilliant thread title

 

[Beachryan]

And Valencia and Jones... so equally 2 players who play virtually all the time and one who plays when fit

True, forgot Valencia as he wasn't really a RB under Fergie. I'm not jinxing Jones by mentioning him as a real footballer. He's like Kompany.

 

[JohnnyKills]

He's got a huge advantage given City's financial power, but he's built a brilliant team there, no doubt. They'll win the league by 10 points.

 

[adexkola]

@El cagrejo great article, that.

 

[black country red]

He's got a huge advantage given City's financial power, but he's built a brilliant team there, no doubt. They'll win the league by 10 points.

we will see its a long time till may

 

[Irrational.]

Even David Moyes a chimp could get results with this City side.

They have so many match winners its unreal. No other side in the PL have as many. If it's not Aguero it'll be KdB, Sane, Silva, Sterling or Jesus.

The true test will be maintaining this form throughout the season and in the CL.

 

[Freak]

His City team has many players who want to take the game by the scruff of the next; they want to get on the ball all the time and create something. Players like KDB, David Silva, Aguero, Gabriel Jesus, Sane are all match winners who don't hide in big games.

I sometimes wish some of our attacking players would stand up to be counted in big games - Mkhitaryan, Mata, Martial, Lukaku (who couldn't even hold the ball up yesterday despite his huge size), and even Pogba.