Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

No idea how you come to this conclusion.

The majority of the Gaza population (57% in polls) supports Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Thus, they aren't all that innocent.

Hamas is using civilians as shields so Israel will be condemned for killing innocent people when they go against the terrorists.
So what choices the IDF have? Either let Hamas get away with their terrorist attacks or go against them anyway and cause civilian losses.

The analogy of root cause and symptom can also be applied here. Hamas is the root of the issue, dead civilians is a symptom caused by Hamas actions.
Again you making assumptions I never expressed.
57% aren't murderous psychopaths but support a terror organization that is! So they aren't that innocent. Without the strong support the Hamas terrorist organisation gets within the population they couldn't do what they are doing.

If you support murderous regimes or organisations, then you shouldn't cry when the day of reckoning comes. As a German I know what I'm talking about.

This is a psychopathic take .It's just vile. "Those silly palestinians crying about their day of reckoning"

I don't think you do

I also think you and other Germans took the wrong lessons from that episode years ago

Absolutely (well I can't speak for the other German posters as I've not seen their comments) but this guy adding on "As a German I know what I'm talking about." is such an oblivious thing to say. He hasn't learnt anything from the events he's referencing.
 


This came out a few hours ago.

Between this and the Al Jazeera investigation from yesterday, I think it is fair to say that the people who were scolding everyone for jumping to conclusions too quickly also jumped to conclusions too quickly and acted like this was a settled matter.


edit: Sorry. When I started I had no idea it would get this long.

I've no idea about the veracity of the forensic architecture investigation, looks professional enough to a no mark like me, but I feel like I must comment on the Al-jazeera one. At first when I saw the Al-jazeera video I thought "oh, that sounds plausible, maybe I shouldn't have been so confident" but something seemed a bit off. Then, after a bit of digging, I concluded that the Al-jazeera investigation is much more likely to be propaganda with little in the way of explanatory power. It's possible that this is motivated reasoning on the part of myself because I've already been convinced otherwise and spent a fair amount of time articulating why, but I don't think so. I don't think I'm that proud. Equally I don't enjoy feeling like a gaslit pawn in some sort of propaganda game so I've got a right bee in my bonnet about this one. I think people have to seriously consider the possibility that Al-Jazeera is lying to them, or is itself guilty of motivated reasoning. For what it's worth (not so much) here's what I'd consider major objections to Al-Jazeera's conclusions.

1. Not enough time (confidence level medium). The investigation postulates that the iron-dome shot down a missile in its launch phase when the iron-dome is, in fact, a terminal (descent) phase system. That is why videos of Iron dome activity seem to always show interceptions ocurring between Gaza and Israeli cities rather than above Gaza itself. Footage of interceptions taken from Gaza also seem to show them being intercepted over Israeli territory. Here is a good article about how the iron dome works. Here is another one. Basically, due to how the iron dome functions, its capabilities and its overall role it is distinctly improbable that there would have been enough time for the iron dome to triangulate, aim, fire and intercept the missile before it crossed into Israeli airspace.

2. Absence of visual confirmation (confidence level high). You can see the iron dome interceptor missiles quite clearly on all night time videos of them in action, right up to the moment of explosion unless it is above the clouds. There is no visual evidence of an interceptor missile at all on the hospital video.

3. Where are the Gazan rockets (confidence level medium-high)? In all the above videos you can see the interceptor missiles, but you can't see what they're intercepting. This is because interception occurs later in the missile life cycle, after its propellant has been used. As you can see in the original Al-jazeera footage, the missile fuel there is still very much ignited at the point of termination. See the video attached to point 3.

4. No comment on change of direction (confidence level high). The Al-jazeera investigation skips over the fact that the Gazan rocket abruptly changes direction mid flight. This change in direction does not have an accompanying explosion (which it would if it were the point of an iron dome interception). What caused this deviation in the rockets path? Why did the investigation decide to omit an explantion? I would contend that this deviation is most plausibly explained via an internal malfunction of the rocket. Here is a video of the whole incident to show you what I mean:

5. No explanation for propellant discharge (confidence level high). The Al-jazeera footage fails to account for the discharge of what is clearly propellant after the deviation in direction and before the moment of interception/explosion. Iron dome rockets work via explosion so could not have been the cause. What caused the fuel leak prior to the explosion? Again I would contend that this discharge is most plausibly explained via an internal malfunction of the rocket. Again refer to the above video to see what I mean.

6. The conclusion that the missile suffered "total destruction" (confidence level low). Now, I don't know exactly what you can safely read into analysis of a camera designed to see in the visible spectrum, but as someone who's fairly familiar with editing and post production techniques in a professional capacity I'm fairly confident in telling you that I could swiftly derive an image that looks similar to the one they produced while having absolutely no confidence that it would portray anything useful As far as I can see the video plays at being able to see into the ultra violet, despite this not being a capability of the original camera. What they've done is played with inversions and curves and farted around with a purple filter to highlight some amorphous blobs. It looks good, but it's turning bright lights purple and outlining them in orange. I think you can see what you want to see in something like this. Here's someone else with a completely different perspective seeing something else. What is it that appears to be falling down at 11 seconds? I have no clue


6. The general tenor of the piece (confidence level low-medium). Now this might just be personal taste, and stuff like dispatches does the same sort of nonsense but I'm unconvinced by the dramatic voice and spooky background music invoking drama in what is supposed to be a factual video. It is a rhetorical trick usually used when someone is attempting to convince rather than explain.

7. Sundry observations (confidence level low). At the point at which the investigation says that Israel's iron dome is intercepting rockets on the cam from "south of Tel Aviv" you can notice that these interceptions already seem to be appearing simultaneously with the launch of Gazan rockets. This seems odd. You also note that the Gazan rockets themselves are only visible for a few moments. Compare that to the rocket over the hospital. That rocket is visible for a lot longer, and is more meandering and slower in its movement. This suggests to me something is wrong in and of itself. Going back to the explosions you can also see that the initial lights in the sky are a lot smaller and indeed last a lot longer than the explosion above the hospital. Although quite a bit different in size and longevity the voice over asserts that the hospital explosion "has the same afterglow seen in previous interceptions." Again this feels rhetorical rather than explanatory.

All told my feeling is that the piece was not a good faith attempt at a best guess, but more likely a piece of propaganda aimed at being plausible to a general audience already predisposed to believing (or wanting to believe) in a specific culprit.

I still think it's just too much of an astonishing coincidence to have a clearly malfunctioning rocket explode right above the hospital with just enough of a time gap to fall to the floor before the ground explosion occurs.

Occam's razor just has to come into play here. On the one hand we have an exquisitely timed malfunctioning rocket. On the other we have a malfunctioning rocket intercepted in record time by an invisible iron dome missile while an independently launched artillery shell lands at precisely the same moment in the hospital below causing precisely the same damage as would be expected from a malfunctioning rocket igniting its unspent fuel.

The second explanation is just too much of an inexplicable confluence of unlikely events.
 
Last edited:
Not a purge, but you can tell that they’re being put aside. Velshi would probably have stayed longer in the Middle East if they allowed him. I fully believe that there is something intentional, and I say that as a loyal MSNBC viewer.
As am I, but they've been exposed to a higher degree as interviewees during the week vs. just having their weekend slots. MSNBC benefits more by those three being in front of a camera capacity.
 
As am I, but they've been exposed to a higher degree as interviewees during the week vs. just having their weekend slots. MSNBC benefits more by those three being in front of a camera capacity.
Fair enough. Still, people noticed changes and I don’t think they were necessary. MSNBC could’ve benefited from their knowledge during the week as well as their regular weekend slots. In any case, this is not the most important thing.

I do though have a question to people who follow the news in Gaza closely: it has been two weeks since the start of this war. Did Israel accomplish anything in particular so far in their war against Hamas? It doesn’t seem so, but I would be interested in hearing people’s opinions.
 


second surprising poll. i would trust these numbers less than the previous one since it's DFP and they've tinkered around before*, but, with such a large margin, even a slightly fudged poll means something.

* ironically to get the most pro-Israel Dem into Congress against a socialist primary opponent

The American public has become tired of wars since the war in Iraq. They accept a war only if there is absolutely no other option. Ceasefire in Gaza would reduce the likelihood of a general conflict that could involve the U.S., especially in the North.
 
Last edited:
Did Israel accomplish anything in particular so far in their war against Hamas? It doesn’t seem so, but I would be interested in hearing people’s opinions.

I've not followed their releases much, but I saw that they did name 2 of those killed as senior people.
It's also impossible to say if the remaining people in Gaza support Hamas.
 
I haven't kept up with domestic politics in Israel but didn't they throw out Bibi multiple times over the last few years but he keeps getting the gig because no other coalition is working to make a majority in Parliament ? Despite his horrible policies plus multitude of corruption cases ongoing.

@Amir can correct me, but here’s my reading: Bibi’s floor of support is very high, and so he’s always in the game. He can lose once, but he has enough support to come back and win again.

Also, he was out of power only 1.5 years since 2009, and so he mostly found a way to form a government since then.

He wasn't thrown out multiple times. We've had five rounds of election since 2019, and only once a govenment was formed without him, under very special circumstances with parties from totally different sides joining forces. That also included, for the first time in our history, a party of Israeli-Arabs (which Netanyahu used in order to spread lies about this govenment including people who support terror). And even that only lasted one year before falling apart - partly because of promises he made to members of that govenment, one of whom is now a minister in his govenment - and him coming back as PM.

He's just got a strong base of fanatics, and other parties which are only going to support him as he'll always give them everything they want financially. So it's very hard to form a coalition without him.
 
Last edited:

Again, it really seems settled to me. That's several non-involved government military sources backing up what seems like a sensible eye-test.

I don't understand why some are so desperate to put this one incident at the foot of the IDF. There are thousands of other deaths, almost all unnecessary. The ground offensive should never happen. Focus on that, and acknowledge the Twitterati got played here by misinformation. It's okay, it's going to happen a lot.
 
Again, it really seems settled to me. That's several non-involved government military sources backing up what seems like a sensible eye-test.

I don't understand why some are so desperate to put this one incident at the foot of the IDF. There are thousands of other deaths, almost all unnecessary. The ground offensive should never happen. Focus on that, and acknowledge the Twitterati got played here by misinformation. It's okay, it's going to happen a lot.

How is this a non-government miltary source? It's from the French government. Also, this line does give way a bit of the bias:

"The DRM decided to make its analysis public at the request of the French presidency in the interests of transparency, it said."

Request of the French presidency, who have been actively supporting Israel and restricting any support for Palestine in France.

I can also post this that says that Israel had done it:



This seems to be an indepedent university-based research team.

The biggest evidence that Israel has done it? They can't even cover their own tracks properly and have been falling over their feet trying to prove Hamas/PIJ did it.

I didn't post it before because I didn't want to open this topic up again.
 


This came out a few hours ago.

Between this and the Al Jazeera investigation from yesterday, I think it is fair to say that the people who were scolding everyone for jumping to conclusions too quickly also jumped to conclusions too quickly and acted like this was a settled matter.

Yeah, I posted the Al Jazeera link and people just spoke about the retweeter.
 
@Ekkie Thump you seem to be making a really good faith effort to understand this missile thing (academic curiosity perhaps?) so thought I’d give a few little bits of context in no particular order.

1. 155mm artillery shell craters are around 3-4m in diameter and 1m+ deep so the crater from bellingcat is not consistent. Israel primarily use the M109 paladin, which fires 155mm. It would be unusual but not impossible to fire at the hospital and miss by that much. To create a crater like the pictures you’d need a much smaller caliber. Not impossible but unlikely To be found on non naval systems. Could be possible it’s on a air mounted cannon, but it’d have to be huge (like an AC130) and it’s not a known Israeli capability or system

2. You can intercept rockets, both in the boost and flight phases. There are many ways, but the iron dome isnt one. It’s most usually done with MANPADS (shoulder launched systems) which have a very short range vs small rockets, so the IDF dude would have needed to be near the hospital to do it. There’s videos of this type of thing in Ukraine. The iron dome is indeed terminal phase, but Israel could have the capability in theory to destroy in flight. However in this case it would be impossible due to time from launch (you’d need to detect track launch and then fly 2x the max iron dome speed in 15 seconds. There’s a lot of other reasons it’s implausible you mentioned like the visibility of the iron dome intercepts and the computer targeting only after propellant has run out (easier to target, that’s ehy it’s terminal phase)

Of course, my main answer is still to trust the experts who’ve studied this; opinion is fairly unanimous by now.

We also have the possibility of the intentionally fired and malfunctioning rocket.
 
This is a psychopathic take .It's just vile. "Those silly palestinians crying about their day of reckoning"

You putting words in my mouth I never wrote.
Just go to YouTube and watch the numerous videos Palestinians celebrating the atrocities Hamas terrorists committed on October 7th. It's disgusting. You can call me biased, and I will freely admit I am. I indeed have little sympathies for people celebrating terrorist attacks and gruesome killings if civilians.
Coincidentally I have been in Berlin during the attacks and I was shocked when hundreds of Palestinian took the streets and celebrated the murderous attacks, shouting death to Israel. People Germany have granted asylum. I'm feel deeply ashamed such things could happen in Germany again.

To make it clear these protests happened shortly after the Hamas attacks and killings on October 7th and where celebrations of these actions.

You are right it's better to leave the German history out of the discussion. It's a poor analogy anyway.
 
How is this a non-government miltary source? It's from the French government. Also, this line does give way a bit of the bias:

"The DRM decided to make its analysis public at the request of the French presidency in the interests of transparency, it said."

Request of the French presidency, who have been actively supporting Israel and restricting any support for Palestine in France.

I can also post this that says that Israel had done it:



This seems to be an indepedent university-based research team.

The biggest evidence that Israel has done it? They can't even cover their own tracks properly and have been falling over their feet trying to prove Hamas/PIJ did it.

I didn't post it before because I didn't want to open this topic up again.

I think people need to take a few moments to verify what they’re spreading:

 
I can't speak to Channel Four's use of sources.

All I can point out is that aside from the obvious bias in the linked account mentioned above and the use of the term "IOF" @Lash noted, the Forensic Architecture thread also pointedly ends by affirming their solidarity with Palestinian people under attack.

Basic media literacy would suggest that whatever expertise they do or do not possess, they are a biased source.
It's a shame people aren't using this basic media literacy to apply the same rigour to Western sources who claim the opposite.

Personally I still don't think it's clear what/who caused the explosion and I'm surprised people think it's been resolved now. The analysis from both sides which has been posted in this thread has been interesting but I don't think anything has been shared so far which definitively proves one side did it.
 
Yeah, I posted the Al Jazeera link and people just spoke about the retweeter.
The Al-Jazeera one literally only referred to its own footage. It was, in my opinion, a sensible retort to the IDF trying to use the network's footage. It says nothing about any of hte other evidence. I and sevearl other posters called that fact out in response to your post, not just pointing out the other 4 points it was making were entirely irrelevant.
 
it really isn’t - stop peddling this narrative.

He's actually right, the opinion is pretty much set. But the truth isn't.

Almost every “independent” expert and intelligence agency is of the same opinion. we won’t find an absolute truth, but It seems somewhere between on the balance of reasonable probability and beyond reasonable doubt.

Not sure why people believe this is a conspiratorial narrative.
 
He's actually right, the opinion is pretty much set. But the truth isn't.
We’ve had a European Intelligence official say it’s PIJ despite not having access to site. The US intelligence, I’m not sure how they’ve come to their conclusion either but the White House is going with it. Then there’s the military Twitter lot one of which literally says it’s inconclusive. All of which are basing this on the same info ie the same videos and images.

On the other side - we’ve had Al Jazeera say otherwise but more importantly Channel 4 who’ve done some actual investigative analysis (and then further work in the tweets above). There’s also the small matter of what the Archbishop of the hospital said - that they received a strike 3 days prior, then 3 days consecutive warnings to evacuate from the Israelis (along with 14 other hospitals) and then lo and behold it was actually struck.

I’m still not certain on who did it, although if I were a betting man, everyone and their dog would know who I would bet on. However it’s far from unanimously agreed.

Also, it’s almost tangential who struck it. Israel have hit hospitals intentionally, they hit a mosque the day after killing 30, mainly women and kids, they’re killing civilians in the WB but the MSM doesn’t want to report on it. It works in Israel’s favour for the spotlight to be on the hospital and hospital only.
 
Of the two accounts linked in that tweet, one doesn't seem to have posted anything except this report and the other has this in their bio:

"Protecting and Promoting Human Rights & the Rule of Law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory #BizHumanRights #EndIsraeliApartheid #EndImpunity #StandWithThe6"

If you want to put forward a credible rejoinder to the consensus that Israel did not bomb the hospital then I would think it will need to come from a source a lot less blatantly biased than that.

But you want us to believe the IDF and "neutral American, british analysis"

A second thing. They slaughtered other 3000 human beings in 10 days. Do they not count?
 

link here to those without access.

I think you’d enjoy the rational security podcast. https://www.lawfaremedia.org/podcasts-multimedia/podcast/rational-security The last one is only partly about this conflict, but the whole thing is worth listening. Great article by the same guys here. https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/on-strategy-law-and-morality-in-israel-s-gaza-operation I also keep a lookout for the always insightful articles on justsecurity.org too and their podcasts like this one from there: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2074610/13813127-the-siege-of-gaza
 
I think people need to take a few moments to verify what they’re spreading:



Forensic Architecture is a respected reseach group based in the University of London. The organization and its director, Eyal Weizman, have won and been nominated for multiple awards.

Yes, but it already implies biases involved right from the start which is never a good thing when you claim to be an independent investigator.

The refutation you offer is "OSINTechnical", an analyst at the "Center for Naval Analyses." The CNA is a fully federally-funded organization, practically an arm of the U.S. Department of Defense. The ony way it could be less independent is if the DoD itself were making the claim.


It's pretty obvious that certain people are reading anything pro-Palestinian as "biased", while accepting anyone who has a twitter account and puts "OSINT" on it as 'independent' even when they work for the Institute Against The Chinese or whatever the feck.
 
Last edited:
Palestinians under attack as settler violence surges in the West Bank

Abed Wadi was getting dressed for the funeral when the message arrived.

It was an image, forwarded to him by a friend, of a group of masked men posing with axes, a petrol canister, and a chainsaw, with text printed on the image in Hebrew and Arabic.

"To all the rats in the sewers of Qusra village, we are waiting for you and we will not mourn you," the text said.

"The day of revenge is coming."

Qusra is Wadi's village, in the northern part of the West Bank near Nablus. The funeral that day was for four Palestinians from the village. Three had been killed the previous day - Wednesday 11 October - after Israeli settlers entered Qusra and attacked a Palestinian family home.

The fourth was shot dead in clashes with Israeli soldiers that followed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344

BBC reporting on the WB (finally).
 
He wasn't thrown out multiple times. We've had five rounds of election since 2019, and only once a govenment was formed without him, under very special circumstances with parties from totally different sides joining forces. That also included, for the first time in our history, a party of Israeli-Arabs (which Netanyahu used in order to spread lies about this govenment including people who support terror). And even that only lasted one year before falling apart - partly because of promises he made to members of that govenment, one of whom is now a minister in his govenment - and him coming back as PM.

He's just got a strong base of fanatics, and other parties which are only going to support him as he'll always give them everything they want financially. So it's very hard to form a coalition without him.

Thank you for the details. I remembered a whole string of elections where basically the ongoing discussion was if you could make a coalition without him, but it only really happened once.
 
link here to those without access.

I think you’d enjoy the rational security podcast. https://www.lawfaremedia.org/podcasts-multimedia/podcast/rational-security The last one is only partly about this conflict, but the whole thing is worth listening. Great article by the same guys here. https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/on-strategy-law-and-morality-in-israel-s-gaza-operation I also keep a lookout for the always insightful articles on justsecurity.org too and their podcasts like this one from there: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2074610/13813127-the-siege-of-gaza

Thanks, seriously worth a listen, lots explaining how much of this is Netanyahus fault
 
Palestinians under attack as settler violence surges in the West Bank

Abed Wadi was getting dressed for the funeral when the message arrived.

It was an image, forwarded to him by a friend, of a group of masked men posing with axes, a petrol canister, and a chainsaw, with text printed on the image in Hebrew and Arabic.

"To all the rats in the sewers of Qusra village, we are waiting for you and we will not mourn you," the text said.

"The day of revenge is coming."

Qusra is Wadi's village, in the northern part of the West Bank near Nablus. The funeral that day was for four Palestinians from the village. Three had been killed the previous day - Wednesday 11 October - after Israeli settlers entered Qusra and attacked a Palestinian family home.

The fourth was shot dead in clashes with Israeli soldiers that followed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67173344

BBC reporting on the WB (finally).
No point in it just being reported because nobody wants to push Israel to reign in these fecking terrorist settlers. It's infuriating and basically why many people are loath to offer even deserved sympathy.