Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Amir said:
Most people did not.
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Wouldn't that render the rest of your post a bit pointless then? Forgive me for coming across as rude but you framed your point to make it seem like Israelis do not have the bandwidth to care about the Gaza suffering because of the brutality of Hamas on Oct 7. But you're also saying most people did not care before Oct 7 anyway.
 
WeePat said:
Wouldn't that render the rest of your post a bit pointless then? Forgive me for coming across as rude but you framed your point to make it seem like Israelis do not have the bandwidth to care about the Gaza suffering because of the brutality of Hamas on Oct 7. But you're also saying most people did not care before Oct 7 anyway.
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This is not the first time Israel has bombed Gaza and killed innocent people. In previous occasions, there was always a large number of Israelis who were vocally against it - even though they did not have the power to stop it by themselves.

Now, very few people in Israel care. The attack from Hamas broke people, broke lefties, like myself.

As for people caring about the daily lives in Gaza before all this started, I'd say most people lived in ignorance more than anything.
 
Amir said:
While I understand you, I think you should look at it from the Israelis point of view.

1,400 people are dead. Others are abducted, missing or injured. A large number of people have been evacuated from the south or north and are living elsewhere, without anyone knowing how long it would take. Communities have been destroyed. People have lost their homes and everything in it, and are left with nothing. Survivors, including children, saw their loved one being executed. Rockets are fired daily. People are scared to leave their homes. Lives have been massively interrupted, with different ramifications on people's abilities to earn a living.

The country, as a whole, is still in shock and mourning. And the idea we'll ever be able to just go on knowing Hamas is on the other side of the border, after what we've seen its capable of, is unthinkable. It's too scary.

So yeah, under those circumstances, people don't particularly care about the civilians of Gaza and especially aren't going to scold the IDF for its methods. It's unfortunate, but I think it's also understandable. We're only human.
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Once Hamas is gone I hope you and your fellow citizens can put some pressure on your government to make a genuine attempt to establish a Palestinian state or integrate them into Israel, especially now having first hand experience on how they have been living over these decades.
 
Amir said:
It wouldn't make me feel anything. As for what it would make me think if you, well, I guess you know that already.
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Then you get my point. It's not "unfortunate" that many Israelis don't particlularly care about the tens of thousands of Palestinian lives currently being ended and destroyed, it's murderous.
 
Amir said:
Not really. Hamas is a terrorist group intent on killing Israelis. That wasn't and isn't going to change. As long as Hamas ruled Gaza, attacks on Israel were always going to happen. And Hamas wasn't going to lose control of Gaza without force.

Israel have made some allowances towards Gaza in the last couple of years, like letting an increasing number of people to cross the border to Israel so they could work and earn a decent living. It appears some have used that in order to learn the area and feed Hamas information.

Should Israel have made moves with the Palestenian authority? Yes, I believe so. But that would not have changed the reality with Hamas.
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So what is going on in the West Bank where Hamas is not there? more than 100 people among them 38 children killed? hundreds had their house stolen. What is the excuse?
 
flameinthesun said:
The Palestinian people have seen their land taken from them, innocent civilians killed, embaressed, stripped of homes and lands. Denied their humanity, stripped of their dignity and treated like they are sub-human, and this in just reference to before October 7th. They have seen loved ones killed mercilessly, women and children alike with their land shrinking and no country offering to help them or provide them a path to regain their dignity. In the past month they have seen thousands of women and children killed. So if the Israeli people dont care about the civilians of gaza based on your point, why should the Palestinians and the wider world care about what happens/happened to the Israeli civilians?
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I understand what you are saying and while things were hardly optimal before October 7, it was Hamas's actions that caused the Israeli retaliation. Realistically, do you think other countries would have responded differently?
 
Frosty said:
IDF spokesperson confirms Israel carried out strike on Jabalia refugee camp

Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesperson Daniel Hagari is giving a televised news conference, where he said the Israeli military “managed to eliminate the terrorist murderer Ibrahim Biari” on Tuesday.

Biari was “the main leader of combat” since Israel forces entered northern Gaza, Hagari said. During his “elimination, many terrorists were killed,” he said.

He said the targeting of the building where Biari was in also “led to the collapse of other things because there was a very extensive infrastructure there”.
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these terrorists “eliminated” 500+ Palestinians. This is ethnic cleansing while the whole world is watching.

I can not believe what is happening. I can not believe the silence. The videos and imagines are heart breaking.
 
Amir said:
I understand what you are saying and while things were hardly optimal before October 7, it was Hamas's actions that caused the Israeli retaliation. Realistically, do you think other countries would have responded differently?
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The use of "hardly optimal" is doing a hell of a lot of heavy lifting to defend Israel's actions prior to October.

Edit: poor use of the word defending, what I meant was it's looking past a long history of Israeli action against Palestine and Gaza which ultimately caused Hamas.
 
2mufc0 said:
Once Hamas is gone I hope you and your fellow citizens can put some pressure on your government to make a genuine attempt to establish a Palestinian state or integrate them into Israel, especially now having first hand experience on how they have been living over these decades.
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That's never going to happen. Ever.
 
2mufc0 said:
Once Hamas is gone I hope you and your fellow citizens can put some pressure on your government to make a genuine attempt to establish a Palestinian state or integrate them into Israel, especially now having first hand experience on how they have been living over these decades.
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I can't see it happening. Too many Israelis have moved to the right over the years, mostly out of fear and the deadly results and failure of the nineties peace proccess. I can't see that changing now, after the Hamas attack. Most people will look at the West Bank not as a partner for peace but as a possible source for another attack.

The pressure HAS to come from overseas, starting with the White House. It's the only hope.
 
Palestinians have no chance, anyone that matters seems to have decided history started on october 7. October 7 is now the answer to everything: war crimes, murders, ethnic cleansing, it doesn't matter.
 
mitChley said:
The use of "hardly optimal" is doing a hell of a lot of heavy lifting to defend Israel's actions prior to October.
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I won't defend Israel's actions. I think Israel is an apartheid state and that its treatment of the Palestenians has been atrocious, murderous at times.

But Israel wasn't attacking Gaza for fun and was looking to make some allowances (like the working permits I mentioned). Hardly enough, but it was an attempt for improvement.
 
mitChley said:
The use of "hardly optimal" is doing a hell of a lot of heavy lifting to defend Israel's actions prior to October.
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Very interesting to analyze the language used almost everywhere in the media, which seems to leak into those that support israel. If you talk about hamas and don't open a small parenthesis to say they are terrorists, oh boy. However, to talk about palestinians, we have unending lists of euphemisms to describe what's happening.
 
Roane said:
I know it makes a few people on here uncomfortable but the plan seems to be ethnic cleansing
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This is anti-Semitic, trying to paint the Israeli state as murders is anti-Semitic regardless of how you feel
 
Amir said:
So yeah, under those circumstances, people don't particularly care about the civilians of Gaza and especially aren't going to scold the IDF for its methods. It's unfortunate, but I think it's also understandable. We're only human.
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Israelis didn't care about the citizens of Gaza before these circumstances either.
 
E-mal said:
This is anti-Semitic, trying to paint the Israeli state as murders is anti-Semitic regardless of how you feel
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No is not. Specially when palestinians are semitic too. Regardless how you feel
 
4bars said:
So what is going on in the West Bank where Hamas is not there? more than 100 people among them 38 children killed? hundreds had their house stolen. What is the excuse?
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Hamas is there as well, actually. Just not with the same numbers, tools or control.

But that's not nearly the only reason for those deaths. I think the IDF is far too trigger happy there, and also the setllers - some of whom are terrorists themselves - have been given a free hand, which is shocking. But unfortunately, not new - especially with this government.

Regarding the numbers, I assume that the 38 children include mostly teenagers and not actual kids. Unfortunately, they are old enough to hold and weapon - and many do so.
 
Amir said:
While I understand you, I think you should look at it from the Israelis point of view.

1,400 people are dead. Others are abducted, missing or injured. A large number of people have been evacuated from the south or north and are living elsewhere, without anyone knowing how long it would take. Communities have been destroyed. People have lost their homes and everything in it, and are left with nothing. Survivors, including children, saw their loved one being executed. Rockets are fired daily. People are scared to leave their homes. Lives have been massively interrupted, with different ramifications on people's abilities to earn a living.

The country, as a whole, is still in shock and mourning. And the idea we'll ever be able to just go on knowing Hamas is on the other side of the border, after what we've seen its capable of, is unthinkable. It's too scary.

So yeah, under those circumstances, people don't particularly care about the civilians of Gaza and especially aren't going to scold the IDF for its methods. It's unfortunate, but I think it's also understandable. We're only human.
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So are they.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Israelis didn't care about the citizens of Gaza before these circumstances either.
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I can only repeat what I've written another poster:

This is not the first time Israel has bombed Gaza and killed innocent people. In previous occasions, there was always a large number of Israelis who were vocally against it - even though they did not have the power to stop it by themselves.

Now, very few people in Israel care. The attack from Hamas broke people, broke lefties, like myself.

As for people caring about the daily lives in Gaza before all this started, I'd say most people lived in ignorance more than anything.
 
2mufc0 said:
I hope you and your fellow citizens can put some pressure on your government to make a genuine attempt to establish a Palestinian state or integrate them into Israel, especially now having first hand experience on how they have been living over these decades.
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And less than 30 minutes later…..

Amir said:
Regarding the numbers, I assume that the 38 children include mostly teenagers and not actual kids. Unfortunately, they are old enough to hold and weapon - and many do so.
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Giggsyking said:
So are they.
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The Hamas people who butchered people are sub human as far as I am concerned.

Look, I understand that it's easy to look at it from the outside and think that Israel - a country with massive military power - should have responded differently, more mildly, to the attack from Hamas. But how many countries would truly do that?
 
Amir said:
The Hamas people who butchered people are sub human as far as I am concerned.

Look, I understand that it's easy to look at it from the outside and think that Israel - a country with massive military power - should have responded differently, more mildly, to the attack from Hamas. But how many countries would truly do that?
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What adjective do you use to describe IDF officials who authorize the bombing of hospitals, refugee camps and other civilian infrastructure?
 
Amir said:
The Hamas people who butchered people are sub human as far as I am concerned.

Look, I understand that it's easy to look at it from the outside and think that Israel - a country with massive military power - should have responded differently, more mildly, to the attack from Hamas. But how many countries would truly do that?
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But Israel aren't just killing Hamas. They are killing thousands of innocent men women and children who have the misfortune of being in Israel's open air prison.
 
Pardon my ignorance, but where is Palestine's backing ? Would it not be in their neighbours interest to retaliate ? If Israel can be backed by America & co... ?
 
Gringo said:
Pardon my ignorance, but where is Palestine's backing ? Would it not be in their neighbours interest to retaliate ? If Israel can be backed by America & co... ?
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Nobody cares about them.
 
Sweet Square said:
And less than 30 minutes later…..
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What's your issue with that? I've been reading daily reports about the deaths in the West Bank, including the names and ages of the Palestenian people who died. And yeah, 17-18 year olds are not neccesarily innocent kids - depending on their actions. I mean, 18 year olds are drafted to the IDF and do battle in Gaza right now.

Sorry if that bit of reality doesn't fit with the way you'd like to view things.
 
maniak said:
What adjective do you use to describe IDF officials who authorize the bombing of hospitals, refugee camps and other civilian infrastructure?
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Has anyone authorized the bombing of a hospital?

I know what you're trying to get out of me, but it won't happen. The safety of my family, my friends and my country comes first. If my country can't provide it, it has no right to exist.
 
mitChley said:
But Israel aren't just killing Hamas. They are killing thousands of innocent men women and children who have the misfortune of being in Israel's open air prison.
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A more surgical operation is plausible, but would cause the deaths of many more Israeli soldiers. A price we're not willing to pay.

Hamas is hiding behind those women and children. it's unforunate, but that's the problem Hamas caused and is still causing by itself - first by doing that and then by making us desperate to destroy its military abilities.
 
Amir said:
I can only repeat what I've written another poster:

This is not the first time Israel has bombed Gaza and killed innocent people. In previous occasions, there was always a large number of Israelis who were vocally against it - even though they did not have the power to stop it by themselves.

Now, very few people in Israel care. The attack from Hamas broke people, broke lefties, like myself.

As for people caring about the daily lives in Gaza before all this started, I'd say most people lived in ignorance more than anything.
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How do you think this will end? From my distant, non-involved perspective, it looks like Gaza will be razed and depopulated to be followed by an acceleration of settlement of the Left Bank such that there is no basis for a Palestinian state anymore. From what you are saying, it sounds like the result of the Hamas attack was to drive more liberal Israelis into the more militant camp.
 
Gringo said:
Pardon my ignorance, but where is Palestine's backing ? Would it not be in their neighbours interest to retaliate ? If Israel can be backed by America & co... ?
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What makes you think Palestine has any backing, except the lip service? Besides, nobody in the world can stand against US.
 
Amir said:
Has anyone authorized the bombing of a hospital?

I know what you're trying to get out of me, but it won't happen. The safety of my family, my friends and my country comes first. If my country can't provide it, it has no right to exist.
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To be honest, from your posts you seem like a lost cause, so I don't really expect anything. The fact you can see what your fellow citizens suffered as something truly horrific and at the same time you fail to see that your country is inflicting the same to other innocent people just astonishes me.
 
Frosty said:
IDF spokesperson confirms Israel carried out strike on Jabalia refugee camp

Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesperson Daniel Hagari is giving a televised news conference, where he said the Israeli military “managed to eliminate the terrorist murderer Ibrahim Biari” on Tuesday.

Biari was “the main leader of combat” since Israel forces entered northern Gaza, Hagari said. During his “elimination, many terrorists were killed,” he said.

He said the targeting of the building where Biari was in also “led to the collapse of other things because there was a very extensive infrastructure there”.
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Bloody Palestinians building their apartment blocks so close together.
 
Amir said:
What's your issue with that? I've been reading daily reports about the deaths in the West Bank, including the names and ages of the Palestenian people who died. And yeah, 17-18 year olds are not neccesarily innocent kids - depending on their actions. I mean, 18 year olds are drafted to the IDF and do battle in Gaza right now.
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Er….yeah a 17 year old is still a kid btw. I also think it’s pretty fecked up a 18 year dumb feck can be drafted into the IDF although I guess that adds to the Starship Troopers vibe.
 
Amir said:
Hamas is there as well, actually. Just not with the same numbers, tools or control.

But that's not nearly the only reason for those deaths. I think the IDF is far too trigger happy there, and also the setllers - some of whom are terrorists themselves - have been given a free hand, which is shocking. But unfortunately, not new - especially with this government.

Regarding the numbers, I assume that the 38 children include mostly teenagers and not actual kids. Unfortunately, they are old enough to hold and weapon - and many do so.
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Really you had to add the last sentence? that means that everyone that has arms (I mean the body parts) is a threat? you know that is not true. It had been killings shooting at the back and just as statistics, just in 2022, 5 were under 13 years old, 3 were under 8 years old and 1 was 2 years old. Please, refrain to excuse the settlers and the IDF. is a constant justification and moving goalposts for what israel is doing
 
maniak said:
To be honest, from your posts you seem like a lost cause, so I don't really expect anything. The fact you can see what your fellow citizens suffered as something truly horrific and at the same time you fail to see that your country is inflicting the same to other innocent people just astonishes me.
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It's a war. It's not a police action.
 
Amir said:
This is not the first time Israel has bombed Gaza and killed innocent people. In previous occasions, there was always a large number of Israelis who were vocally against it - even though they did not have the power to stop it by themselves.

Now, very few people in Israel care. The attack from Hamas broke people, broke lefties, like myself.
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What you are telling me is that the conviction that "bombing innocent civilians is bad" lasted as long as Israelis felt any actual fear. It's not a very flattering picture you're painting.
 
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