Rpod! Set up a game of WW. When I'm not playing that, I keep reading this thread/the news and it makes me
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Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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Here in Devon we call it Puddletown too.
It absolutely is not at all. If you think that then you definitely haven't read much in here as there is more fair debate, nuance and factual history than almost any other forum I have seen this discussed.
I also think you need to read the room. Almost everywhere on the planet is absolutely disgusted at Israel at the moment, especially as the war crimes are stacking up day after day to the point where they have given up making excuses now. That doesn't mean people are against every day Israelis or they are anti-Semitic, just they are against Bibi and his government and the armed forces.
A recent poll showed over 75% of Israeli citizens were also against them too and the number is growing daily. However none of that makes anyone a Hamas supporter or sympathiser. People just want to see an end to the genocidal acts carried out under false pretences,. especially with no pushback from countries like the UK and USA.
What are you going to do? Invade Israel? And then you have the nerve to call me unreasonable? I'm amused that you live in Germany but I'm guessing you're not German or you wouldn't say such a daft thing. It was their army sorting out "the root of the problem" that led to the formation of the Israeli state in the first place.
The root of the problem is neither side being willing to contemplate a two state solution. You won't impose one by force.
Everyone in this echo chamber you call a room certainly is. Most western governments are not calling for a cease fire. The grown up analysts know it's not as simple as your contradictory post suggests. Israeli public opinion is against Netanyahu because he allowed October 7 to happen, not because he is levelling and ethnically cleansing Gaza.
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Dude wtf ? Where did he say anything remotely resembling that.
You’re inventing stupid one sided arguments in your own head and taking offense at the premise while ignoring legitimate discussion and pushback
Well right here below. Unless you think the Israelis are going to stop because they're asked nicely in which case you don't know many Israelis. How else do you make them stop? Sanctions?
No, you're arguing backwards from a (very understandable and legitimate) moral position you already had and trying to make it fit the facts. Hence the need for an echo chamber.
There’s some survivor testimony that mentions something similar in the kibbutz as well - that Hamas took hostages and the IDF would rather blow up the whole house, hostage, Hamas and all rather than try and get their people out. I think I posted it a while back (Mondoweiss link).
A fair and balanced speech.
This takes some doing, but your previous two pages of posts leading to this point may be the weirdest thing I’ve seen on Redcafe.
EDIT: I just caught up on the following pages… wild. You outdid yourself
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I'm sure if you went back to 1833's version of Red Cafe you'd have a good amount of people calling Nat Turner an irrational terrorist, and just pleading for "peace" (a peace where millions of people were enslaved, sold, bought, brutalized, exploited, raped, killed...)
Sure. Feel free to address my specific points and questions since you are so sure of your opinion.
Bit of burying the lede in that tweet so I'll spit it out: Israel's strategy to eliminate Hamas isn't working.
It obviously is working given that they already control a large swath of northern Gaza in just a few weeks on the ground.
Should sanction all settlers.
I reported this a week or so ago. My source was a friend of a friend inside Gaza. Also was something mentioned by one of the rave organisers and a woman survivor called Yasmin Porat (I think I wrote).
I was told off for inventing things.
I'm hearing that over 2k IDF soldier have been killed since the attack on Gaza. Not confirmed by official media type sources just word of mouth from those inside who have links with people I know.
Any news on Israeli casualties??
I mean it would help if the US didn't veto every UNSC resolution that condemns the settlements, but this is a start I suppose.
It only says visa bans but that's a start.
80 confirmed dead after the bombing of the UN refugee camp. Is there a secret Hamas base beneath that too?
I doubt that is their real strategy since it's unachievable and not especially productive. More likely they want to force as much of the population as far south as possible and then into Egypt with or without Egyptian consent. Ethnic cleansing and reduce Gaza to rubble.
Not saying it will work but more likely what they want.
I agree it's not their real strategy, you're fighting an enemy that seamlessly blends into the dense civilian populace. How on earth do you expect to root them out?
The annoying part is how the West (as usual) has bought their stated objectives, hook line and sinker. I'm sure they've been more critical of Ukraine, a country fighting a completely legitimate war.
The US controlled large swathes of Iraq and Afghanistan almost immediately as well, and indeed took over the country, the body bags still piled up and we now see one is a vassal state of Iran, and the other had the "baddies" from 2001 take over the country within a 18 months of the commencement of their withdrawal.
The political and military leadership of Hamas is still intact and they're still active in the fight, so their aim of militarily eradicating Hamas is quite evidently not going well.
I don't think the West are that naive, I'd wager they knew exactly what the objective was from the get go and have been happy for it to play out, hiding under the guise of it being a righteous act of self-defence and exclusively siphoning all condemnation and culpability towards Hamas.
Decades from now we'll see the tracking back and revisionism, just like with Mandela and the ANC.
Probably not, but this particular speech was. He also has equities with the west to consider, just as those around him have regional interests to consider.
A lot of martyrs who risked their lives to help people, incredibly brave.
I doubt western governments share your view on what is and is not legitimate. It's an interesting question how far the Israelis will be allowed to go before America completely stops supporting them.
My reading is that (1) as long as Hamas do not release the hostages they are giving Israel an excuse to continue their assault and (2) Hamas wanted all this to happen - they knew full well what the consequences of their attack would be because it has happened before and Israel's stated policy is to massively over retaliate.
Why do Hamas want it? They want to give Iran and Hezbollah no choice but to get involved. They thought it would trigger regional conflict. I don't think that's going to work either. They have over estimated how much Tehran actually cares about them and read too many of their own press releases. Faced with the USS Gerald Ford sitting in the Med, Iran has left them in the lurch. Of course if the Americans left then it would be a whole different story.
https://defector.com/hamas-will-be-anywhere-that-israel-wants-it-to-be
Hamas Will Be Anywhere That Israel Wants It To Be
Good article on Israeli propaganda and the US press reaction to it
Hamas Will Be Anywhere That Israel Wants It To Be
Good article on Israeli propaganda and the US press reaction to it
You really don't want to understand that kind of war isn't won by "controlling" territories and/or getting the body count on your side. Have the last +70 years of asymmetric warfare in all parts of the globe truly taught you nothing?
They are only about 3 weeks into a war that will probably take a few months and control a lot of territory. If you extrapolate this over time they will control a vast majority of above ground Gaza at some point very soon. Tunnel entrance and exit points will be closed in the process, which will make it very difficult for Hamas to survive. What happens to a post Hamas Gaza after the war is another question.
If this turns out to be true, it's a massive deal.
It would mean that the US are ready, for the first time since 1948, to stop unconditionally supporting Israel, and actually do something.
It would also mean and confirm that the US is slowly coming around the fact that the current Israel policy is leading nowhere, Netanyahu is definitely a goner and not part of the US plans anymore and something has to give.
Given that they planned the 10-7 attack for at least a year or two, they were probably banking on a regional conflict that never materialized, leaving them instead to fend for themselves against an Israel that is now committed to removing them from Gaza. An epic and fatal miscalculation that is impossible to undo at this stage.
Would be a safe political move for Biden. Maintain the pressure on Hamas in Gaza while throwing a bone to domestic unrest about his Israel policy by going after WB settlers, who are unpopular in most political circles.
I wish I shared your optimism but I'd have to disagree. The US is finally coming under the crosshairs of the international community for their complicity in Israel's crimes, so I'm seeing their slight maneuvering as a means to weather that storm, feigning the impression that they're concerned about the human cost of this conflict. When it comes to anything remotely tangible though they'll revert to form - vetoing any resolution that condemns Israel, passing legislation that makes boycotting illegal, and widening the threshold that blurs the lines between condemnation of Israel and antisemitism. These gestures don't exactly convince me of there being a paradigm shift just yet. For that to happen, congressmen and women will have to start losing their jobs via the ballot box on account of their stance, and it becomes politically (and financially) untenable for politicians and organisations to hold a ironclad and zealous commitment towards Israel.
The democratic international community (as in Europe and North America) are largely in sync with the US on the Israeli response to the attacks. The only consideration for Biden is domestic as it relates to 2024, so any policy decisions he makes will be in accordance with that.
Saudis turning to China first in an attempt to stop the carnage:
Saudi FM Announces Launch of Work of Committee Tasked with Mobilizing Int’l Action to Stop War on Gaza
https://english.aawsat.com/gulf/467...-tasked-mobilizing-int’l-action-stop-war-gaza
Saudi FM Announces Launch of Work of Committee Tasked with Mobilizing Int’l Action to Stop War on Gaza
“Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Faisal bin Farhan bin Abdullah announced on Saturday the launch of the work of the ministerial committee tasked with mobilizing international action to end the war on Gaza.
The committee will kick off its work from China.
The committee was formed at the Arab-Islamic summit that was held in Riyadh last week and that focused on the conflict in Gaza.”
https://english.aawsat.com/gulf/467...-tasked-mobilizing-int’l-action-stop-war-gaza