Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Raven]

Begs the question of how long the management at Shifa hospital and NGOs like the Red Cross and UNWRA have known about Hamas operating in the hospital. Contrary to what they have been saying the whole time

And I'm the conspiracy theorist.

 

[ExoduS]

Romantic and a realist talk about the conflict and possible solutions. The conclusion, I’m afraid, is that this conflict is gonna drag on for a long time. Proponents of two state solution from each side need to come to a forefront, but October 7th onward is a major setback to that happening.

 

[berbatrick]

Worth a read

 

[4bars]

Apartheid is expensive. It crumbled in SA partly due to the high costs of maintaining a violent police state at home, fighting on multiple fronts against other African states, and dwindling receipts due to embargos. Hopefully in this situation, they're brought to the point of reason through bankruptcy.

US is already preparing a 14B package. With this type of bankrolling will never happen

SA had UN arms and oil embargo. Quite different scenarios

 

[4bars]

Israel is not preventing Gazans leaving via Egypt. Egypt is doing that. This is doublethink. The two countries have the same policy for the same reason. Even the Palestinian Authority has supported the Egyptian blockade. That said, the Israelis don't give two hoots for western moralising on the subject. They see Gaza as a hotbed of Islamist hatred that cannot be reasoned with. They have a point.

Tell me which country would accept 2 million refugees? would US? europe? Which economy can face this and not crumble? Are you asking Egypt to feck their country for the actions of Israel?

Also, Gaza is their home no one should have the right to ask them to leave

 

[glazed]

Tell me which country would accept 2 million refugees? would US? europe? Which economy can face this and not crumble? Are you asking Egypt to feck their country for the actions of Israel?

Also, Gaza is their home no one should have the right to ask them to leave

Wars create refugees. That's true everywhere. Hamas started this one which was a terrible and potentially fatal error on their part. Egypt may not get a choice. One well placed bulldozer and the Rafah Crossing becomes irrelevant.

I don't condone ethnic cleansing but I think that's the Israeli plan and I can see why it would be from a logical perspective. I also don't think it will work in the short term unless the Israelis are far more ruthless than I thought and the Americans are far more patient and Iran and Hezbollah more spineless. In the long term I'm less sure. Gaza might end up as the proverbial boiled frog.

 

[RedTiger]

Exactly so. By existing and winning a war to destroy it that it did not start. You've finally got to the root of it. Well done.

By the way Egypt controlled Gaza from 1953 to 1967. When they attacked Israel and lost.

I love your logic, Egypt controlled gaza for 14 years so they are obligated to take in gazan refugees while Gazans who have lived there for over a millennia have no say in the matter. Nice.

 

[glazed]

I love your logic, Egypt controlled gaza for 14 years so they are obligated to take in gazan refugees while Gazans who have lived there for over a millennia have no say in the matter. Nice.

That's what they call a straw man argument. Take something I never said and then moralise about it.

Egypt are under no obligation to do anything and I don't expect them to. Pan-arab Palestinian solidarity has always been more of a rhetorical device than a military choice ever since it became clear that going against Israel meant going against America. Egypt will sit by and watch Gaza starve if they have the choice. They might not get that choice though. Borders are tricky things.

If those Gazans move to Egypt then it will spell the end of the regime or a huge massacre. Black September will be a walk in the park compared to that (when exactly this happened in Jordan on a much smaller scale).

Israel is planning to flatten Gaza by the looks of it and make the population live in tents. The idea that the same people are then going to provide humanitarian assistance or even basic amenities is a bit far fetched if you ask me. If Hamas wants to stop that happening they should probably return those hostages.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Ahh I see what IDF are suggesting with the hospital CCTV footage (I think).

According to BBC News, they're suggesting that Cpl. Noa Marciano was a hostage that was taken into that hospital with minor injuries and then was killed there (by Hamas).

Apparently, during an air strike by IDF, Noa was minimally injured and the Hamas terrorist holding her captive was killed. Then Noa was taken inside Al Shifa hospital and then killed by a member of Hamas.

Hamas have said she was killed by the air strike itself, however, IDF say the airstrike was on the 9th, therefore implying she was taken to Al Shifa and killed earlier than that, which would be on the 7th?

I hope more (and hopefully more accurate) detail is uncovered for the family of Noa.

 

[4bars]

Wars create refugees. That's true everywhere. Hamas started this one which was a terrible and potentially fatal error on their part. Egypt may not get a choice. One well placed bulldozer and the Rafah Crossing becomes irrelevant.

I don't condone ethnic cleansing but I think that's the Israeli plan and I can see why it would be from a logical perspective. I also don't think it will work in the short term unless the Israelis are far more ruthless than I thought and the Americans are far more patient and Iran and Hezbollah more spineless. In the long term I'm less sure. Gaza might end up as the proverbial boiled frog.

Hamas attack it was a milestone on a long term ethnic cleansing plan. Settlement plans and killed gazans on the thousands dates of decades so no, Hamas didnt start that. Hamas intensified the conflict that was already ongoing and was bound to happen sooner or later...they just speed it up

 

[glazed]

Hamas attack it was a milestone on a long term ethnic cleansing plan. Settlement plans and killed gazans on the thousands dates of decades so no, Hamas didnt start that. Hamas intensified the conflict that was already ongoing and was bound to happen sooner or later...they just speed it up

Sure you can argue cause and effect all the way back to 1948 if that's your bag. Ultimately if Israel has the right to exist then they're in the right to retaliate harshly against those who think it should not. If they don't have that right, they're in the wrong whatever they do. You're welcome to take the latter view but I'm afraid the Israelis are not going to share it and nor are the Americans. So you're not being terribly realistic. Maybe that's not your thing.

If I punch an 800 pound wild gorilla in the face and rape his children in front of him, I fully expect to get ripped to tiny pieces in short order. Hamas knew exactly what the consequence of their actions would be. They just didn't care and they thought Iran would help. That's the problem with being religious nutters. You believe what suits you.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Sure you can argue cause and effect all the way back to 1948 if that's your bag. Ultimately if Israel has the right to exist then they're in the right to retaliate harshly against those who think it should not. If they don't have that right, they're in the wrong whatever they do. You're welcome to take the latter view but I'm afraid the Israelis are not going to share it and nor are the Americans. So you're not being terribly realistic. Maybe that's not your thing.

If I punch an 800 pound wild gorilla in the face and rape his children in front of him, I fully expect to get ripped to tiny pieces in short order. Hamas knew exactly what the consequence of their actions would be. They just didn't care and they thought Iran would help. That's the problem with being a religious nutter. You believe what suits you.

Question, do you think obliterating Hamas will end violence between Palestine and Israel? Especially with the gaza blockaids and West Bank settlements etc? I feel no nation will ever except that lying down and there will always be a group of resistance fighter/terrorists etc.

 

[glazed]

Question, do you think obliterating Hamas will end violence better Palestine and Israel?

You can't obliterate an idea. It's a nonsense concept. Hamas ideology permeates Gazan culture. The Gazans elected them to power knowing full well who they are and since then a whole new generation has grown up to hate Israel even more. So the answer to your question is no I don't think that because it can't be done without killing hundreds of thousands of people. And that is not really an option. Even if Israel were the fascist bogeyman that some think it is (and I don't think it is), the Americans would stop it.

That's why I think their plan is ethnic cleansing, not genocide.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

You can't obliterate an idea. It's a nonsense concept. Hamas ideology permeates Gazan culture. The Gazans elected them to power knowing full well who they are and since then a whole new generation has grown up to hate Israel even more. So the answer to your question is no I don't think that because it can't be done without killing hundreds of thousands of people. And that is not really an option. Even if Israel were the fascist bogeyman that some think it is (and I don't think it is), the Americans would stop it.

That's why I think their plan is ethnic cleansing, not genocide.

Yeah that's my thinking. IDF keep saying they won't stop until Hamas is eradicated and you can't really eradicate an idea so where does it stop?

And at what death number will prompt the Americans to actually step in?

It's bleak just thinking about it.

 

[glazed]

Yeah that's my thinking. IDF keep saying they won't stop until Hamas is eradicated and you can't really eradicate an idea so where does it stop?

And at what death number will prompt the Americans to actually step in?

It's bleak just thinking about it.

My guess would be that just like every other border the Gazans will find a way across given enough incentive. The Israelis might even help with a false flag bulldozer or two. Or drop the sea blockade and allow them out that way. They won't want mass death in the hundreds of thousands. However Hamas might want exactly that if if they think it will achieve their objectives.

By regional standards this is not unprecedented. In the Syrian Civil War a minimum of 580,000 people are estimated to be dead; with 13 million Syrians being displaced and 6.7 million refugees forced to flee Syria.

 

[Raoul]

Yeah that's my thinking. IDF keep saying they won't stop until Hamas is eradicated and you can't really eradicate an idea so where does it stop?

And at what death number will prompt the Americans to actually step in?

It's bleak just thinking about it.

What you can do is remove the resources, infrastructure and people (Hamas) and set up new security conditions that don’t allow terrorist groups to set up again, which will allow for more breathing room for moderates to be a part of a dialogue. That will of course require political will from both the Israeli side as well.

 

[Ted Lasso]

Turns out Israel built the bunker under Shaifa hospital in the 80's:

https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-israel-build-bunker-under-shifa-hospital-1844107

I'm also seeing reports that a notable number of Israeli deaths on October 7th were inflicted by an Israeli military helicopter that was indiscriminately firing down.

I've only caught up on a few of the last few pages but I'm not seeing much about this. Is this not common news yet or is there an important piece of context missing?

 

[glazed]

What you can do is remove the resources, infrastructure and people (Hamas) and set up new security conditions that don’t allow terrorist groups to set up again, which will allow for more breathing room for moderates to be a part of a dialogue. That will of course require political will from both the Israeli side as well.

Only if you're prepared to occupy Gaza. Which is tricky once it's been reduced to rubble. I don't think making room for Gazan moderates is the plan I'm afraid.

 

[Raoul]

Only if you're prepared to occupy Gaza. Which is tricky once it's been reduced to rubble. I don't think making room for Gazan moderates is the plan I'm afraid.

They will have to either stay in Gaza or else outsource security to the UN while maintaining the outer security envelope. If what has happened in northern Gaza is precedent for the south, a vast majority of Gaza will be uninhabitable soon, so there will need to be a plan on where the people will go post Hamas. That process will require the Israelis to remain there until a long term resolution is agreed.

 

[glazed]

They will have to either stay in Gaza or else outsource security to the UN while maintaining the outer security envelope.

What if they do neither? Leave the place in rubble, walk out and seal the border?

 

[Raoul]

What if they do neither? Leave the place in rubble, walk out and seal the border?

And allow a Hamas successor to take over ? Highly unlikely given the effort expended to remove them. Netanyahu has already made public remarks that the Israelis will remain in charge of the security perimeter in any post Hamas Gaza, so in order to get there, they will have to remain inside Gaza until they’re confident the situation is stable enough for them to justify the risk of leaving.

 

[Wibble]

And allow a Hamas successor to take over ? Highly unlikely given the effort expended to remove them. Netanyahu has already made public remarks that the Israelis will remain in charge of the security perimeter in any post Hamas Gaza, so in order to get there, they will have to remain inside Gaza until they’re confident the situation is stable enough for them to justify the risk of leaving.

One (of many) concerns must be that Israel haven't thought past getting rid of Hamas (whatever that means) and have no real plan for what comes next.

 

[Raoul]

One (of many) concerns must be that Israel haven't thought past getting rid of Hamas (whatever that means) and have no real plan for what comes next.

I'm almost certain they don't have a viable post Hamas plan. They're fully in an act now, plan later mode.

 

[4bars]

Sure you can argue cause and effect all the way back to 1948 if that's your bag. Ultimately if Israel has the right to exist then they're in the right to retaliate harshly against those who think it should not. If they don't have that right, they're in the wrong whatever they do. You're welcome to take the latter view but I'm afraid the Israelis are not going to share it and nor are the Americans. So you're not being terribly realistic. Maybe that's not your thing.

If I punch an 800 pound wild gorilla in the face and rape his children in front of him, I fully expect to get ripped to tiny pieces in short order. Hamas knew exactly what the consequence of their actions would be. They just didn't care and they thought Iran would help. That's the problem with being religious nutters. You believe what suits you.

Well the cause and effect is clear that Israel is the aggressor. What you cant do is of all the events that brought us where we are now is the Hamas terrorist attack. There is a reason why Hamas exist, there is a reason why Hamas kept existing for the last +30 years. Seeing how IRA in Ireland and ETA in Spain disappeared it shows that if the population can thrive, they don't want to hear about a terrorist group. You can keep having independent political ideas, but there is no space for violence. But that is not the situation in Gaza. And the situation in Gaza is caused by Israel

If Israel would be interested in the 2 state solutions, they would not be constantly pushing with the settlement, so they believe that Palestine doesn't have the right to exist either. And yes, I am realistic. Israel has always wanted to have the whole promised land, from before 1948 and they only compromised while they had not enough power to be an hegemon in the region. Now that they are they don't want to compromise, but not since October 7th but from before

And yes, fully agree on the gorilla analogy, but Hamas is not Gaza and West bank is not Gaza either and civilians are the ones paying the consequences. A better analysis is that the gorilla, trying to kill you goes and kills all the zoo visitors. And for that, Israel has no excuse. Well, they have lots of excuses but are all BS

 

[Amir]

I'm also seeing reports that a notable number of Israeli deaths on October 7th were inflicted by an Israeli military helicopter that was indiscriminately firing down.

There is an estimate in the Israeli defence organizations that several participants in the festival were killed by helicopter fire. I don't know about it being a "notable number" (compared with 1,200 deaths, that is. Every one is notable).

Is it important information? I'm sure some try to make it look like it is. I don't believe it is. Yes, in order to stop the attack of thousands of terrorists who were looking to butcher hundreds more, the IDF had to take those risks. I think everyone in Israel accepts that.

 

[flameinthesun]

Well this one for example. Eliding a 30 year old highly distorted story about Israel stealing Palestinian body parts with a dubious Hamas claim that Israelis are digging up bodies at al Shifa now to imply a connection between the two and then call them nazis and demons. It's just a blood libel with a not very well disguised dog whistle. A constant stream of propaganda from Electronic Intifada basically.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/isr...more-discussion.438643/page-550#post-31350228

The quoted probably should have checked the source and probably commented less aggressively, but is that Anti-semitism? Surely when following something like this there will be the odd dubious source etc.

Regarding your "constant stream" of Electronic Intifada (had to google that bit up), maybe you should think a little deeper as to why a lot of people are criticising Israel and its actions. People recognise when fights are not equal and in general don't like that. I'm not talking about just war power, but when the "constant stream" that we receive in the UK from the major news outlets is basically regurgitating Israeli government position, politicians refusing to criticize the senseless killing of thousands, the refusal of governments to condemn the Israeli settler terrorists amongst other things, then to fight back against that overwhelming Israeli government propoganda a lot of people will amplify the negative aspects of the Israeli government and the people who support its actions which you will see on Redcafe and thankfully so, as if we all had to rely on were the major news outlets then everyone would be supportive of what Israel is doing. Thankfully, in this day and age you have great resources like Redcafe where you can get both sides if the argument and make up your own mind.

At the end of the day its hard to feel sympathy for you regarding an "Electronic Intifada", if that is even a thing on Redcafe, when the majority of the major news outlets are pro-Israeli. Its hard to care about the safety of the Israeli population when they are the ones with the bigger guns and don't care about the safety of the Palestinians, its hard to care about what is happening TO Israel when it as a country pretty much does not care what happens to the Palestinians. I'll be honest, I find it very sad that innocent people had to die on Oct 7th, even 1 innocent death would have been too much. However, my sympathy for what those in Israel itself are feeling has slowly dwindled as I see how much of them support and some even champion the destruction and subjugation of Palestine whether in Gaza or the West Bank.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Well this one for example. Eliding a 30 year old highly distorted story about Israel stealing Palestinian body parts with a dubious Hamas claim that Israelis are digging up bodies at al Shifa now to imply a connection between the two and then call them nazis and demons. It's just a blood libel with a not very well disguised dog whistle. A constant stream of propaganda from Electronic Intifada basically.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/isr...more-discussion.438643/page-550#post-31350228

Blood libel? You mean that thing that is said when Israel does something awful, they deny it, then a decade later admit to it?

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

I see the vast majority of Twitter now saying the IDF updates are incontrovertible evidence of Hamas hiding in the shifa hospital and I'll agree if it wasn't so odd.

People are claiming it's Israeli festival hostages being dragged into Shifa. Then others say it's Thai/Nepalese people. The previous video walkthrough of the hospital, the IDF said all the security cameras were blocked, yet they have lots of security camera footage.

And now this, the tunnels seem to have been built by Israel forty years ago.

All very weird.

 

[Beachryan]

Well the cause and effect is clear that Israel is the aggressor. What you cant do is of all the events that brought us where we are now is the Hamas terrorist attack. There is a reason why Hamas exist, there is a reason why Hamas kept existing for the last +30 years. Seeing how IRA in Ireland and ETA in Spain disappeared it shows that if the population can thrive, they don't want to hear about a terrorist group. You can keep having independent political ideas, but there is no space for violence. But that is not the situation in Gaza. And the situation in Gaza is caused by Israel

If Israel would be interested in the 2 state solutions, they would not be constantly pushing with the settlement, so they believe that Palestine doesn't have the right to exist either. And yes, I am realistic. Israel has always wanted to have the whole promised land, from before 1948 and they only compromised while they had not enough power to be an hegemon in the region. Now that they are they don't want to compromise, but not since October 7th but from before

And yes, fully agree on the gorilla analogy, but Hamas is not Gaza and West bank is not Gaza either and civilians are the ones paying the consequences. A better analysis is that the gorilla, trying to kill you goes and kills all the zoo visitors. And for that, Israel has no excuse. Well, they have lots of excuses but are all BS

Finally see folks are talking a bit more about the issues, potential paths forward instead of posting latest shock twitter threads. That's something. For me the discussion above is the crux of the matter, indeed having tried to seek out many different views this is where I think we are, realistically:
1. Israel exists where it exists. You can make a very strong argument about why it shouldn't be there, but it is, and you can't now change that. Israel is too rich, too powerful and too entrenched. Further, the majority of initial Jews living in Israel in 1948 were NOT displaced European Jews, but displaced Middle-Eastern Jews. So yelling that they should just go home, and that they're 'coloinalists' akin to what was done all over the world is a bit off base. Personally, given what has been done to the Jewish people several times in history across different leaders, religions and so forth, I can see why the Jewish people feel like they need a failsafe place to call home. Anyway. For me Isreal is gonna be where it is.
2. The two-state solution attempts in the early 2000s were the closest we've gotten to a workable solution, and since then both sides have just gotten more extreme.
3. Netanyahu's desperate personal and hence political struggle of embracing the settlers (because he needs the votes and everyone else hates him) will hopefully be the final nail in his f*cking disgraced obituary. Not a good human.
4. The settlers are obviously in the wrong, particularly when they use violence and intimitation, and even worse when backed up by the IDF.
5. Isreal's treatment of Gaza and the world's apathy were a disgrace. That includes both western countries and arab countries. None of whom did much.
6. Hamas is a fundamentalist, radical terror group and not some put-down-upon ragtag rogues who were just trying to organise a bad situation for its people. It gives two f*cks about its people, their water, their education whcih can be seen by how much of each dollar of aid it stole either for personal wealth (go Google the leaders' net worth) or for military purposes.
7. Given the role of SA and how much money is the new (only?) political language in the area, Hamas knew its days were numbered if Israel and SA agreed a broader peace deal, as it would likely include an agreement for Palestine that doesn't feature Hamas.
8. So we get to October. And this is where I hugely diverge from others: if Hamas doesn't do what it did - at the scale, with the ferocity and with the publicity (Hamas literally filmed a lot of what it did ffs) the situation, today, would be better for Gazans. There would be a better chance of peace of some sort, a better chance of a two-state solution, a better chance of water and so forth.
9. Isreal has used up any traces of goodwill it had left with the West from its reaction, and Netanyahu has condemned his country for a few more months of power. There was 100% a path Isreal could and should have taken than what it has, but that was never going to happen with him in charge. But him being in charge is hardly a mystery, despite huge protests against him.

Finally, and this is clearly where most of the conflict with the majority of posters on this forum lies: I believe there is a path for the world to reign in Israel. War crime tribunals, using these horrible videos as evidence, prosecuting commanding officers and of course Bibi and his current cabinet. I really, desperately hope that happens, publically for the world to see in my lifetime. Because what Israel has done the last month has to be held up as an example that can never be permitted to a 'fellow-member' of the international order. And that's why I don't and can't just state both sides (Hamas/Israel) are the same, it's just not that simple for me.

 

[Beachryan]

I'm almost certain they don't have a viable post Hamas plan. They're fully in an act now, plan later mode.

Bibi knows it won't be his problem, to be fair.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

Anyone listen to Mishal Hussain on Radio 4 today, good interview with Israeli spokesperson.

Seems asking, how come so many Palestinians are dying in the West Bank flummoxes those defending Israel.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

 

[VorZakone]

Denied later. We'll have to see in the coming time if more details are reported.

 

[The Corinthian]

Blood libel? You mean that thing that is said when Israel does something awful, they deny it, then a decade later admit to it?

I also did a big of digging on the term - it’s actually a term Christians used to use against Jews as an antisemitic trope. The irony that they’ve now adopted the same term is probably lost on dear @glazed.

It’s a useless term in any case.

 

[stevoc]

More agreeing with this just being an anti-Israel echo chamber.

IDF can post some video evidence of something and the first response is "liars" "cover up"

Well that will naturally happen with any thread about a state that embarks on a bombing campaign that kills thousands of innocent civilians including thousands of children.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Sounds very Putin-ish

 

[Idxomer]

Well that will naturally happen with any thread about a state that embarks on a bombing campaign that kills thousands of innocent civilians including thousands of children.

And it's one of the few conflicts or maybe even the only one where the ones responsible for this get considerable support from everywhere in the West. Even in this "echo chamber" there are apologists posting daily who are okay with what's happening.

 

[Stack]

And it's one of the few conflicts or maybe even the only one where the ones responsible for this get considerable support from everywhere in the West. Even in this "echo chamber" there are apologists posting daily who are okay with what's happening.

I must have missed those in here who are ok with whats happening, I havent seen anyone who is ok with this.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

There's been lots of posts like that, but they've decreased the longer this has gone on.

 

[glazed]

Well the cause and effect is clear that Israel is the aggressor. What you cant do is of all the events that brought us where we are now is the Hamas terrorist attack. There is a reason why Hamas exist, there is a reason why Hamas kept existing for the last +30 years. Seeing how IRA in Ireland and ETA in Spain disappeared it shows that if the population can thrive, they don't want to hear about a terrorist group. You can keep having independent political ideas, but there is no space for violence. But that is not the situation in Gaza. And the situation in Gaza is caused by Israel

Unfortunately if you are drawing from the cause and effect cycle that only Israel is to blame then you are picking a side rather than being even handed. The Palestinians rejected the two state solution in 1948 and have done so a number of times since before Hamas appeared. They (or rather Arab nations in the region) kept starting wars over it and kept losing them, rather like the current situation. Israeli intransigence also exists but has tended towards a different pattern. But if the Palestinians wanted a state they could have had one, albeit never the one they wanted at the time. It is also true that the state on offer has become progressively worse over time and now does not really exist at all. But let's not pretend that's always been the case.

The quoted probably should have checked the source and probably commented less aggressively, but is that Anti-semitism? Surely when following something like this there will be the odd dubious source etc.

Yes it's anti-semitism to link a 30 year old highly distorted claim about a rogue practice for which people got fired (do your research) with what's happening now with absolutely no connection whatsoever. If you don't want to acknowledge it that says more about your tolerance of dog whistles.

Blood libel? You mean that thing that is said when Israel does something awful, they deny it, then a decade later admit to it?

No I mean the stuff that gets posted by dog whistle anti-semites. We can go through why it is anti-semitic but I doubt you'd acknowledge it.