Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Smores said:
What the hell has this thread descended into? :lol:

Are right wingers really moaning that they want to enjoy the creative industries without having to be told an opinion they disagree with? And claiming thats some form of preventing freedom of expression.

Such snowflakes
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Ive said that since the phrase was coined..the right are the original snowflakes
 
hobbers said:
All Corbyn did was follow the Clegg model and bribe a load of mostly middle class kids to vote for him to pay for their arty farty degrees. Very successful model when you don't have to deliver on any promises, just like the rest of Labours manifesto.

As for the left's vicegrip on pop culture, it would be fine were it not for the swathes of dimwitted celebrity drones carrying on like militants in the middle of a morale crusade, outwith their coke and hooker sessions of course. Nothing more detestable than champagne socialism.
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I can think of tons of things far far far worse and more harmful and more impactful than champagne socialism.
 
Flying high said:
(socially)Liberal values: Equality and fairness. The belief that everyone should have a fair chance in life. That descriminating against those that are different is wrong. That being born disadvantaged should not be a barrier to progress in life.
Every small victory toward that ideal(the battle is far from won, though much progress has been made in the last century) has been a fight against conservatives. The protectionists. Those that feel scared of change, maybe because they are happy with the status quo. Maybe because they benefit from the oppression of the disadvantaged. Maybe they simply don't realise the damage being done to vast communities on our planet. Maybe they are world-weary cynics, wanting to live out their lives unbothered by the woes of others.

Most leftists, I feel confident in saying, feel that helping refugees is essential, but that preventing those situations is even more important. The right wing, as a generalisation, reject the initial help overseas and frankly through their support of exploitative big business and oil wars for example(no, Blair was not a leftist), actually cause many of those problems. Then they typically object to helping refugees.

But you didn't mention refugees, which is typically the call of the left wing entertainment industry. You mentioned immigration. This is not a left wing thing! The sort of mass immigration we have seen in the last 20 years, under a mixture of governments, has been encouraged for the balance sheets and to fill a skills/labour shortage.
Short term thinking, with little recognisable planning for the consequences. The level of immigration could be reduced at any time by our government. Brexit or not. They simply need to stop most immigration from outside the EU. Or implement the rules that the EU already allows that would discourage many of those 250,000 last year. But not without hitting GDP. Before the whole brexit fiasco started Cameron understood this, he gambled that he could use the growing hostility towards the immigration levels to win elections, but actively dismantled some of the very few mechanisms in place to lessen the burden on the country that they caused. It didn't quite work out for him, and now we have a situation where we are being corralled into leaving the EU at a time when national and personal debt are at insane levels. Like I said, not a left wing thing.

Not everyone who is socially left wing, is fiscally left wing. It's an idea which is far less simple than free market capitalism, so is less understood by many. The answer from the left isn't simply give everyone more money, as much as it's painted as so. While the Conservatives are still clinging on to the idea that private businesses are better than the state for everything. The view of the left is that allowing business to put profit above all else is at the root of many social and economic problems that we face. While technology has helped boost the standard of living for many people in the world, that is no reason to not try to help those that have missed the boat. Improving education and healthcare will more than pay for itself, in the long run. As any good business knows, investing in the right areas brings great rewards. So austerity IS an idealogical choice. While it's perfectly fine for those that excel and provide something to the world to be rewarded, until we reach a point where no child goes hungry, at least, then maybe the richest can make do with just one yacht. A small one if necessary. Same goes for businesses. They can forgo paying tax by investing(not per se a bad thing) but when you have a government eager to sell off the natural and social resources of a country to those same companies, it doesn't take long to realise that there were big problems ahead when those profits stopped being reinvested.

A whole crowd at Glastonbury might not agree with everything I've written, or what Jeremy Corbyn has to say. The basic premise of peace, love, understanding and compassion should be lauded. It bloody should make a crowd cheer. The fact that these values are overtly left wing should tell you something. If I ever see a (socially)right wing gathering genuinely spreading the same message of positivity, then I'd applaud them too.

So while I do understand a wariness toward popularising politics, I see it as far less of a problem than, say, the daily mail putting negative stories about immigrants on their front page something like 23 out of the 30 days leading up to brexit(can't find link right now sorry), leaving it just a few days after the Jo Cox murder before starting again. That's the sort of crap to be scared about. So criticising a positive message just because they aren't having the whole conversation right there in front of you... I'm sorry but it just doesn't work for me.

There are things other people do that we all don't like. But standing up for their right to do them(with the obvious proviso of no harm to others) is not some niche echo chamber. It's been a hard fought battle and one that the youth of today rightly seem proud to be growing up within.

Sorry if the reply is a little long, but there appeared a strong under-current to your post that I felt needed addressing. I'd happily respond if you want to challenge anything I've written.
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Get a haircut hippy !
 
Responding to more -

ThierryHenry - It's pertinent though. Corbyn is getting up on an entertainment platform of people that ultimately have gone there for music/social reasons as opposed to political reasons. It's propaganda.

SteveJ - We all have biases and irritations. Or am I just biased and irritated because I disagree with you?

FlyingHigh - I appreciate your more cordial manner as opposed to some others. Your points are a whole other topic entirely. I have expressed admiration for some of the aspects of liberal politics. I'm far from a 100% conservative. Politics is more nuanced than that. I personally find the far left's attitudes to some things morally abhorrent and the same for the right. That's what I'm saying about group think. I see a lot of people unable to acknowledge any humanity or capacity for reason on the other side of the political fence. Sadly, many on Red Cafe tend to demonise Conservatives and Leave voters etc. without any empathetic acknowledgement of their motivations, context etc.

You seem to be claiming total moral authority for the left/Labour etc. They've made lots of mistakes, as have the Tories.

I'm a pretty selfish person but I give a lot of money to charity, regularly help the poor and have supported lots of people in their rehabiltation from addictions, mental health issues etc. Could I do more? Absolutely. I can be an asshole at times. We all can. I know some incredibly moral and caring people who vote Tory. I know some terrible Labour voters. And vice versa. Neither side holds all the good or has people. We have to all make a decision with our consciences based on many factors.

I would love for a lot of what Corbyn pledges to be made reality. Of course I want better funding for our public services. Yet I don't believe it's realistic or financially responsible in the way Labour envision it.

As for Mciahel again, so what? I was a hippy who merely talked about peace and love and unity but then I grew up and started living it. I don't know what your comments achieve except for denigrating me.

Regarding terms like left or right, they are linguistic conveniences and I admit that they are simplistic. However, the current political landscape is so polarised so it is easy to categorise. I apologise. I should really have said 'far left' above.

Silva, I've made it clear that I think some liberal ideas have been very positive over history. I agree that those improvements have benefited the arts. Yet there is a danger of things going to the other side of an oppressive coin, and that's what I'm getting at.

You started your post really well and you descended again into personal abuse. You really can't help it can you? Classy guy.

As regards to Richard Murdoch, I would guess he doesn't mandate anything creatively besides what makes him money. It's the writers, casting agents etc who would do that.
 
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As far as I can tell, your problem is that Corbyn spoke at Glastonbury which should be a politically neutral event in your mind. Yet the history of Glastonbury is not politically neutral. It's propaganda, but as far as propaganda goes standing in front of a large crowd and giving a speech is a lot less sinister than having your deficits airbrushed by the national print media by virtue of having made a quid pro quo pact with said media owners. The founder of Glastonbury is a Labour member, and its core reach is to the British left, though plenty of conservatives will also attend. Corbyn could have been booed. May takes no such risk when the Express, Mail, Sun, Telegraph et al write great things about her and serve as an attack dog for her rival.

You hint at wider problems with the left in general but you haven't as of yet addressed any of them in depth.
SparkedIntoLife said:
Mciahel Goodman, I'm referring to things like all the talk of open borders (because, you know, peace and all that), the public sector being underinvested, rich people being all scumbags etc.
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The public sector does suffer from under investment. That's not liberal paraphernalia which comes from a TV show, you can find that on the news. I've yet to see any talk of open borders. Corbyn himself wanted restrictions on labour movement that people presumed would come with Brexit. He's also been anti EU for decades. Movement of people isn't a topic that fits neatly into any spectrum classification. Conservatives have a long history of open border policy because it provides cheap labour.

I don't know where the rich people being scumbags thing comes from.

In all honesty, it seems to me that you're moaning because you saw Corbyn on the television and you as a conservative shouldn't have to put up with seeing a left wing politician at a leftist music festival. Maybe that's not correct, but your wider point about the arts being liberal also seems irrelevant because liberalism doesn't denote left or right wing politics. It isn't even particularly true, as before, during, and after the Iraq War Labour was mercifully destroyed within that same bubble of liberals.
 
Mciahel, thank you for being more respectful in your last post than the ones before it.

I'm 'moaning' due to the sheer amount of politically Left sentiments being preached at entertainment events. In and of itself, it isn't wrong as everyone has the right to express themselves. However, it's gone beyond that now into one sided diatribes from many entertainers; some of whom have an extremely poor moral history yet have the gall to condemn Tories.

My issue really isn't with Corbyn or the Glastonbury crowd but the pervasive culture that seems to turn every live entertainment show into brazen political propaganda rather than purely entertainment.
 
hobbers said:
All Corbyn did was follow the Clegg model and bribe a load of mostly middle class kids to vote for him to pay for their arty farty degrees. Very successful model when you don't have to deliver on any promises, just like the rest of Labours manifesto.

As for the left's vicegrip on pop culture, it would be fine were it not for the swathes of dimwitted celebrity drones carrying on like militants in the middle of a morale crusade, outwith their coke and hooker sessions of course. Nothing more detestable than champagne socialism.
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Nothing wrong coke and hookers.

It is easy to think of more detestable things than champaign socialism though, i.e your propensity for racism.
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
Mciahel, thank you for being more respectful in your last post than the ones before it.

I'm 'moaning' due to the sheer amount of politically Left sentiments being preached at entertainment events. In and of itself, it isn't wrong as everyone has the right to express themselves. However, it's gone beyond that now into one sided diatribes from many entertainers; some of whom have an extremely poor moral history yet have the gall to condemn Tories.

My issue really isn't with Corbyn or the Glastonbury crowd but the pervasive culture that seems to turn every live entertainment show into brazen political propaganda rather than purely entertainment.
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Apart from Glastonbury which other live entertainment shows that aren't already politically natured do you think this is occurring/happened? To the extent of being not only political but brazen propoganda?

You've just thrown the words every and pervasive about so im thinking a lot yet im struggling to recall many myself.
 
Well I can certainly see why Sparkedintolife stopped being a hippy.

hobbers said:
All Corbyn did was follow the Clegg model and bribe a load of mostly middle class kids to vote for him to pay for their arty farty degrees. Very successful model when you don't have to deliver on any promises, just like the rest of Labours manifesto.

As for the left's vicegrip on pop culture, it would be fine were it not for the swathes of dimwitted celebrity drones carrying on like militants in the middle of a morale crusade, outwith their coke and hooker sessions of course. Nothing more detestable than champagne socialism.
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As opposed to the coke and hooker sessions our old chancellor (and current Evening Standard editor) and his mates are known to be fond of? Also I don't get why socialists who live in capitalist societies are expected to live like monks.
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
Silva, I've made it clear that I think some liberal ideas have been very positive over history. I agree that those improvements have benefited the arts. Yet there is a danger of things going to the other side of an oppressive coin, and that's what I'm getting at.
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That's what you've changed the story to, what you were getting at is that Corbyn needs to feck off and musicians should stop it with the lefty politics. You can have those opinions if you want and espouse them, but don't be euphemistic about it.

As regards to Richard Murdoch, I would guess he doesn't mandate anything creatively besides what makes him money. It's the writers, casting agents etc who would do that.
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That's the point. There isn't a conspiracy shutting right wing artistic voices down. The only people who can mandate particular viewpoints in entertainment would rather make a buck or two.
 
Shamwow said:
As opposed to the coke and hooker sessions our old chancellor (and current Evening Standard editor) and his mates are known to be fond of? Also I don't get why socialists who live in capitalist societies are expected to live like monks.
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Nah, you've got it wrong. Boris Johnson threatening journalists, Trump sexually assaulting women, or George Osborne going on coke binges is just them showing character; lefties doing anything other than attending church four times a week are destructive liberals who demonstrate everything that's wrong with society. Or something.
 
Cheesy said:
Nah, you've got it wrong. Boris Johnson threatening journalists, Trump sexually assaulting women, or George Osborne going on coke binges is just them showing character; lefties doing anything other than attending church four times a week are destructive liberals who demonstrate everything that's wrong with society. Or something.
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Let's not forget about the Pig!
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
FlyingHigh - I appreciate your more cordial manner as opposed to some others. Your points are a whole other topic entirely. I have expressed admiration for some of the aspects of liberal politics. I'm far from a 100% conservative. Politics is more nuanced than that. I personally find the far left's attitudes to some things morally abhorrent and the same for the right. That's what I'm saying about group think. I see a lot of people unable to acknowledge any humanity or capacity for reason on the other side of the political fence. Sadly, many on Red Cafe tend to demonise Conservatives and Leave voters etc. without any empathetic acknowledgement of their motivations, context etc.

You seem to be claiming total moral authority for the left/Labour etc. They've made lots of mistakes, as have the Tories.

I'm a pretty selfish person but I give a lot of money to charity, regularly help the poor and have supported lots of people in their rehabiltation from addictions, mental health issues etc. Could I do more? Absolutely. I can be an asshole at times. We all can. I know some incredibly moral and caring people who vote Tory. I know some terrible Labour voters. And vice versa. Neither side holds all the good or has people. We have to all make a decision with our consciences based on many factors.

I would love for a lot of what Corbyn pledges to be made reality. Of course I want better funding for our public services. Yet I don't believe it's realistic or financially responsible in the way Labour envision it.
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I talk on a fairly regular basis with a few conservatives. My experience has shown that we generally aren't too far away from each other on most topics. Like you, the reason some of them vote Conservative seems to be the lack of faith in Labour when it comes to running the economy. While my points may seem to be another topic, I was attempting to debunk the myth that the right wing policies which the Conservatives have made the norm in the country, are in any way to be seen as positive for our economy. Whilst also trying to show how the ethos of a Corbyn left wing government could work if we can just drop this business first philosophy. Obviously I failed to reach you, as you didn't address those issues, and still feel that the Corbyn financial plan can't work. I'd love to hear why investing in education and healthcare can't be done, whereas investing in big business by way of subsidies and tax breaks is guaranteed to work this time. Because you must be pretty sure if you are prepared to vote against the things you like. Honestly, it is difficult to know why people who think of themselves as fair minded, vote for them. Is the only reason really the fear of a financial crash?

I don't claim total moral authority for the left. But pretty damn close. Some people will take any idea far too far and as you said, good and bad on both sides. But as a whole, yes I'd much rather the world was a vision of the left than the right. I absolutely don't claim moral authority for the Labour party. Corbyn though is tapping into that latent feeling that the country, and indeed the world, needs to be fairer and that it really is achieveable.
 
horsechoker said:
The problem with May is she doesn't have a chant. You need a chant!
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She's a daughter a vicar's daughter who came up short of seats.

She's a daughter a vicar's daughter who likes to run through wheat.

Theresa May, Theresa May, Theresa May Theresa May oooh oooh Theresa May.

Sorry, it is late though.
 
Theresa's good
Theresa's good
She's Ebenezer...May
 
Labour are red,
The Conservatives are blue,
The Greens are Green,
The Lib Dems are a kind of weird, orangey colour but no one knows for definite,
We're shit at rhyming,
Being poor is probably your own fault
 
I wonder. Would you say this (tweet below (read thread)) is the expression of a hard-left person? Because this is the epitome of a Momentum member (from my experience), whether or not she is actually signed-up. If she isn't and she went along purely out of curiosity, she'd find she had a lot in common. But hey! It's obvious, isn't it? Her point, I mean...

 
They just cant help shooting themselves in the foot.

You'd have expected them to have got on board for longer with the "unity", whilst the Tories were in chaos.
 
Here's what Chuka said previously on the single market.

He said: “If continuation of the free movement we have is the price of Single Market membership then clearly we couldn’t remain in the Single Market, but we are not at that point yet.”
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Fergies Gum said:
Here's what Chuka said previously on the single market.
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What an utterly laughable hill some have chosen to die on. An amendment that not only contradicts the manifesto they ran on earlier in the month, but makes swathes of it impossible to implement, put forward by a self serving wank. Actually, when I put it that way, it makes sense for some of them.
 
Link to the story?

Well done to Stella Creasy today as well. Excellent win for a number of reasons.
 
Read it now. Seems a silly time to create internal conflict from Chuka but I'm glad someone is still flying the single market flag.

Though I quite like the party's Brexit approach today - use the government's Brexit promises against them, hold them to a certain standard. Hope it continues.
 
ThierryHenry said:
Read it now. Seems a silly time to create internal conflict from Chuka but I'm glad someone is still flying the single market flag.

Though I quite like the party's Brexit approach today - use the government's Brexit promises against them, hold them to a certain standard. Hope it continues.
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There will never be a silly time for these cnuts, we had so called Labour MPs saying they wouldn't back Corbyn as Prime Minister during an election. Chuka is having a little cry that he didn't make Corbyn's shadow cabinet and dragging a few deluded souls down with him.
 
Very silly. Not sure how he thinks this is good for him. Any sensible 'centrist' would be either offering moderate support for the leadership or keeping their trap shut - whichever they are more comfortable with. It seems political suicide to be trying to take on that battle, at this point.
 
ThierryHenry said:
Read it now. Seems a silly time to create internal conflict from Chuka but I'm glad someone is still flying the single market flag.

Though I quite like the party's Brexit approach today - use the government's Brexit promises against them, hold them to a certain standard. Hope it continues.
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He's just laying down a marker he can point to later and say 'I was the only one that fought back, I may have lost but I was right and went down fighting'.

Boris did the same thing supporting Brexit, but he unexpectedly won and didn't know what to do next.
 
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