Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[dumbo]

I still maintain that the exuberant surprise that some of this bunch expressed - after the relative success of the election - seemed at least slightly duplicitous. The metamorphosis from cockroach to apparant Corbynista was too sudden and the praise too over egged to be entirely convincing.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I wonder. Would you say this (tweet below (read thread)) is the expression of a hard-left person? Because this is the epitome of a Momentum member (from my experience), whether or not she is actually signed-up. If she isn't and she went along purely out of curiosity, she'd find she had a lot in common. But hey! It's obvious, isn't it? Her point, I mean...

I don't know what your point is.
I don't know how we glean her political stand point from the message. Hard left would be a reach though.
I don't know what Momentum is. (I do now, Google helped. I've been overseas)

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

Okay, so, can somebody help me? I'm feeling very confused, I'm tired from work, and maybe I've misunderstood the story - but I understand Corbyn just fired three shadow front benchers because they voted for an amendment for the UK to stay in the single market.

Now, unless, I've totally dreamed the last few months, I thought Labour wanted Britain in the single market even after we've left the EU?

Isn't that like the crux of the soft Brexit that Corbyn has been calling for.

Paging people that will probably know better: @Mciahel Goodman @Cheesy @Silva

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Now, unless, I've totally dreamed the last few months, I thought Labour wanted Britain in the single market even after we've left the EU?

They rebelled against the front bench. You can't do that if you're in the shadow cabinet and you're trying to give the impression of solidarity to highlight the frailty of the Conservatives' coalition with the DUP. It's not about the single market, it's that they've created breathing space for the Tories who can spin this as a chaotic opposition. They had to go.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

They rebelled against the front bench. You can't do that if you're in the shadow cabinet and you're trying to give the impression of solidarity to highlight the frailty of the Conservatives' coalition with the DUP. It's not about the single market, it's that they've created breathing space for the Tories who can spin this as a chaotic opposition. They had to go.

Okay, I get that, but that part I don't understand is why it wasn't Labour's front bench position to vote for the amendment in the first place?

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Okay, I get that, but that part I don't understand is why it wasn't Labour's front bench position to vote for the amendment in the first place?

It wouldn't pass if they did support it as they don't have a majority. Even if that were to be Labour's official position, which it isn't because Corbyn notes that controls on movement of labour aren't possible from within the single market (a deal would have to be achieved for this to take place), it would look like a defeat should they support it and get voted down. Corbyn has painted a picture of a soft Brexit, but he hasn't explicitly committed to much in terms of policy so far (aside from guarantees about EU citizens' rights to stay in the UK, and not threatening Europe with a radically low corporate tax rate).

There's also the perception of impeding the functioning of the country, or the people's will. If you table pro EU legislation whilst in opposition (pass or fail), you're going to come in for a lot of criticism and propaganda about ignoring the people's will, etc. A significant proportion of Labour's core vote (that swathe of it which is outside London, at any rate) is now firmly anti EU (it was prior to the recent GE, but that's been solidified with the UKIP vote). Not sure it would be politically expedient for them to table anything which could be spun as trying to defy the will of the country, or ignore the referendum (especially if they can't even pass it in the house).

But for a more in depth policy analysis I'd ask @Ubik to weigh in.

 

[Silva]

Okay, so, can somebody help me? I'm feeling very confused, I'm tired from work, and maybe I've misunderstood the story - but I understand Corbyn just fired three shadow front benchers because they voted for an amendment for the UK to stay in the single market.

Now, unless, I've totally dreamed the last few months, I thought Labour wanted Britain in the single market even after we've left the EU?

Isn't that like the crux of the soft Brexit that Corbyn has been calling for.

Paging people that will probably know better: @Mciahel Goodman @Cheesy @Silva

Nah, Corbyn's personally on the harder Brexit side of Labour. The party is sending mixed messages so they can say "I told you so" when it all goes tits up. It's not very admirable, but hey ho.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

Alright, cheers both. I've tried to keep abreast of how Labour wants to go about Brexit, because god knows, the Tories don't seem to want any kind of arrangement at all - but I've found myself becoming ever more confused. I remember hearing in the lead up to the EU referendum that Corbyn was historically in favour of leaving the EU as a younger man, and this was often used as a stick to beat him with when he came out in favour of remain last year. It's funny, I don't actually recall hearing him talking about the Single Market much during the election just gone, and it's hard to find many quotes on it. I guess I've just assumed he wanted to remain in the SM as that was often part of the 'soft Brexit' package that most progressives are after.

Keir Starmer, who is the Shadow Secretary of state for Exiting the EU has made some quite ambigious statements, saying he wants the Single Market option to still be on the table going into negotiations, having said only a few weeks before that both Single Market membership and free movement of citizens must come to an end after Brexit. And whilst the Conservatives are clearly making a bit of a hash of the Brexit process, I'm not entirely sure I know what Labour would do, and I'm not convinced they are either.

 

[Cheesy]

Yeah, Labour's position on this is still very muddled and confusing. Creasy got called out for it on QT. I can understand the frustration of pro-EU, pro-single market Labour MP's but at the same time defying your leader on a vote if you're in the cabinet is a no-no.

 

[DOTA]

I don't know what your point is.
I don't know how we glean her political stand point from the message. Hard left would be a reach though.
I don't know what Momentum is. (I do now, Google helped. I've been overseas)

It works best if you just assume anything our Irwin posts is cringey propaganda, of the level that make even those of us who gladly take the mantle of 'hard left' wish to step away.

 

[Boycott]

Labour have scored an own goal here

I get why Corbyn has made this decision but it's going to take a hit with the young voters he built so much good will from

 

[Silva]

Labour have scored an own goal here

I get why Corbyn has made this decision but it's going to take a hit with the young voters he built so much good will from

I'm inclined to agree but also think that only those of us who are political nerds, and therefore quite set in our thinking and political allegiances, will remember the details for long.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

I'm inclined to agree but also think that only those of us who are political nerds, and therefore quite set in our thinking, will remember the details for long.

Yeah, at the risk of sounding condescending, I think *some* (absolutely not all) of the youngsters who have been engaged with politics because of Corbyn have done so because...it was cool and he can do very little wrong.

The Tories are baddies, Corbyn's a good guy, good enough for me, Jack.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

It works best if you just assume anything our Irwin posts is cringey propaganda, of the level that make even those of us who gladly take the mantle of 'hard left' wish to step away.

Cheers. I wondered why nobody had replied.

 

[Silva]

Yeah, at the risk of sounding condescending, I think *some* (absolutely not all) of the youngsters who have been engaged with politics because of Corbyn have done so because...it was cool and he can do very little wrong.

The Tories are baddies, Corbyn's a good guy, good enough for me, Jack.

Nah, younger people were engaged by Brexit and coincidentally lean left. Corbyn's just at the right place at the right time to take advantage of this age division.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

Nah, younger people were engaged by Brexit and coincidentally lean left. Corbyn's just at the right place at the right time to take advantage of this age division.

Ah, y'see man I'm not so sure about that. Whilst Brexit certainly highlighted the divide between old and young, I can't help but feel that a lot of the less politically astute youngsters who got behind Corbyn did so because he was in vogue, and was offering lots of shiny free stuff. All I'm doing here is sound like an asshole and painting young Labour voters as being naive, but surely if the youngsters were all about Brexit first and foremost, then the Lib Dems would have really surged?

 

[Silva]

Ah, y'see man I'm not so sure about that. Whilst Brexit certainly highlighted the divide between old and young, I can't help but feel that a lot of the less politically astute youngsters who got behind Corbyn did so because he was in vogue, and was offering lots of shiny free stuff. All I'm doing here is sound like an asshole and painting young Labour voters as being naive, but surely if the youngsters were all about Brexit first and foremost, then the Lib Dems would have really surged?

The lib dems voted for tuition fee rises, so they're fecked until the current toddlers get the vote. I didn't mean that it's about Brexit though, I meant they were engaged into the political sphere, and their overall politic is left leaning - perfect for a Corbyn character.

 

[Boycott]

This amendment was never going to get passed. With that in mind I feel Corbyn shouldn't have sacked those ministers but instead told them now the position is certain regarding the single market. If they didn't want to follow through with it, resign.

Corbyn sacking them so soon after parliament has come back gives the tories ammo.

Of course you can argue the amendment shouldn't have got passed through but there is a base of voters who wanted it. Chuka played to the crowd knowing it wouldn't pass.

 

[Sweet Square]

Ah, y'see man I'm not so sure about that. Whilst Brexit certainly highlighted the divide between old and young, I can't help but feel that a lot of the less politically astute youngsters who got behind Corbyn did so because he was in vogue, and was offering lots of shiny free stuff. All I'm doing here is sound like an asshole and painting young Labour voters as being naive, but surely if the youngsters were all about Brexit first and foremost, then the Lib Dems would have really surged?

Maybe just maybe young people have a more complex view on the EU.

 

[DenisIrwin]

I don't know what your point is.
I don't know how we glean her political stand point from the message. Hard left would be a reach though.
I don't know what Momentum is. (I do now, Google helped. I've been overseas)

I was making a point about Momentum really. I've described it (to my daughter's ex) as "a bit like a Jeremy Corbyn fan club", because that was my perception. It kinda irks me that there is an entrenched view in many peoples' minds that it's some kind of dangerous hard-left bunch of militant rebels - with lots of variation on that theme perpetuated in the right-wing media (like the Mail, Sun and BBC). If only people like the woman that tweeted above went along they'd feel very much at home - and definitely not among dangerous radicals.

 

[DenisIrwin]

It works best if you just assume anything our Irwin posts is cringey propaganda, of the level that make even those of us who gladly take the mantle of 'hard left' wish to step away.

I take that as a personal insult and a misrepresentation. That's OK though. Whatever.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

I was making a point about Momentum really. I've described it (to my daughter's ex) as "a bit like a Jeremy Corbyn fan club", because that was my perception. It kinda irks me that there is an entrenched view in many peoples' minds that it's some kind of dangerous hard-left bunch of militant rebels - with lots of variation on that theme perpetuated in the right-wing media (like the Mail, Sun and BBC). If only people like the woman that tweeted above went along they'd feel very much at home - and definitely not among dangerous radicals.

I have never heard the term "Hard-Left" used authentically. To you, what does that mean?

To your point, why does the person that tweeted need to go anywhere? People need to stop picking teams.

 

[DOTA]

I take that as a personal insult and a misrepresentation. That's OK though. Whatever.

It was. I shouldn't have said it.

 

[DenisIrwin]

I have never heard the term "Hard-Left" used authentically. To you, what does that mean?

To your point, why does the person that tweeted need to go anywhere? People need to stop picking teams.

Maybe she would like a really good cup of tea.

 

[Sweet Square]

There will never be a silly time for these cnuts, we had so called Labour MPs saying they wouldn't back Corbyn as Prime Minister during an election. Chuka is having a little cry that he didn't make Corbyn's shadow cabinet and dragging a few deluded souls down with him.

Pretty much

 

[Dobba]

The Venn diagram of people who have complained for 2 years about Corbyn wanting to lead a party of protest and those who backed Umunna is very an interesting one.

 

[DenisIrwin]

The Venn diagram of people who have complained for 2 years about Corbyn wanting to lead a party of protest and those who backed Umunna is very an interesting one.

What's one to make of it all - a new word order?

 

[ivaldo]

How many times did he defy the whip? Imagine if this was May. She'd have been torn to shreds here.

 

[DenisIrwin]

How many times did he defy the whip? Imagine if this was May. She'd have been torn to shreds here.

Never from the front bench and most often on the right side of history. Umunna never stood a chance of winning. He did it purely to upset the apple cart and needs to go, imo.

 

[Oscie]

Never from the front bench and most often on the right side of history. Umunna never stood a chance of winning. He did it purely to upset the apple cart and needs to go, imo.

So rebelling from the back-bench is okay if you're Jeremy Corbyn but if Umunna does it he needs to go?

Weren't you the one in the election thread suggesting criticism of Diane Abbott's car crash interviews was racist?

Interesting take on 'If the white guy does it..' here, considering that.

 

[Pexbo]

So rebelling from the back-bench is okay if you're Jeremy Corbyn but if Umunna does it he needs to go?

Weren't you the one in the election thread suggesting criticism of Diane Abbott's car crash interviews was racist?

Interesting take on 'If the white guy does it..' here, considering that.

You can't be fired from the back bench.

 

[Oscie]

You can't be fired from the back bench.

Indeed but I assume the suggestions around getting rid of rebellious MPs are based around deselections.

 

[Cheesy]

I can understand the frustration within Labour (centrist or left) at the lack of standing up for single-market membership, but right now, just weeks after an election when the party was finally appearing united, was not the ideal time to defy Corbyn.

The Tories will lead Brexit negotiations barring another election which sees Labour assume power. Corbyn knows this. As a result, he's playing his cards close to his chest, currently claiming he's against single-market membership but probably willing to reverse that by being a tad unclear, so that if it all goes tits up he can claim the moral high-ground without having looked properly anti-Brexit. At least that's what I think he's doing. Going against him made little sense.

 

[Oscie]

But at what point does a Labour MP stand up for retention of single market access if not when the government is on the ropes and negotiations have started?

Hurtling out of the single market because it wasn't seen as an opportune moment to mention it because "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" would be unforgivable betrayal of people who voted Labour, most of whom want to stay in then single market

 

[Cheesy]

But at what point does a Labour MP stand up for retention of single market access if not when the government is on the ropes and negotiations have started?

I'm not sure yet. I don't think anyone really is. But I don't think Chuka's rebellion was particularly wise, or necessary. Especially considering his supposed future ambitions for leader. Only causes further friction in the party.

 

[Oscie]

I'm not sure yet. I don't think anyone really is. But I don't think Chuka's rebellion was particularly wise, or necessary. Especially considering his supposed future ambitions for leader. Only causes further friction in the party.

You're probably right. Just frustrating when Labour, with pro-Remain Tories and other opposition parties could really hold the governments feet to the fire on Brexit. Instead we're supposed to be star struck that he got a good hand at Glastonbury and leave the negotiations to this shambles of a government.

 

[Cheesy]

You're probably right. Just frustrating when Labour, with pro-Remain Tories and other opposition parties could really hold the governments feet to the fire on Brexit. Instead we're supposed to be star struck that he got a good hand at Glastonbury and leave the negotiations to this shambles of a government.

You're overestimating them, to be honest. They'll complain and criticise but when push comes to shove they'll take a pro-Brexit Tory government over any form of Labour government. Otherwise they wouldn't be Tories. We hopefully will see the government held to account on this but Corbyn and Labour also need to take into account their own standing ahead of any future elections; simply dismissing the prospect of leaving the free-market completely while it remains a fairly popular idea may not go down too well with voters. And it'd largely be wasted energy when it's going to happen anyway, barring a sudden change in government.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

You're overestimating them, to be honest. They'll complain and criticise but when push comes to shove they'll take a pro-Brexit Tory government over any form of Labour government. Otherwise they wouldn't be Tories. We hopefully will see the government held to account on this but Corbyn and Labour also need to take into account their own standing ahead of any future elections; simply dismissing the prospect of leaving the free-market completely while it remains a fairly popular idea may not go down too well with voters. And it'd largely be wasted energy when it's going to happen anyway, barring a sudden change in government.

This is the key really, looking at how the Lib Dems fared with their rhetoric around Brexit Labour are best placed right now being very coy and responding to what the Government do. As the reality of negotiations set in I would not be surprised to see Labour change their current official stance.

 

[Cheesy]

This is the key really, looking at how the Lib Dems fared with their rhetoric around Brexit Labour are best placed right now being very coy and responding to what the Government do. As the reality of negotiations set in I would not be surprised to see Labour change their current official stance.

Yeah, initially the fear would've been ceding territory to the Lib Dems during the election due to their expected mini-surge, but in the end it didn't materialise. As it stands most voters are plopping for one of two options: the party saying, "We don't like this, but it's happening anyway" is going to be the more appealing one to most voters, I expect. Especially when their position is liable to change.

 

[ThierryHenry]

This is the key really, looking at how the Lib Dems fared with their rhetoric around Brexit Labour are best placed right now being very coy and responding to what the Government do. As the reality of negotiations set in I would not be surprised to see Labour change their current official stance.

So the real fight... still hasn't started?



Not during the referendum, not in the post referendum period, not when we voted to activate article 50, not during the general election, and not now? Got it.