Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

What’s controversial about what Corbyn is saying? First of all, he is merely listing components of what he perceives as the BBC pushing a pro-Israel narrative.

It’s unclear that he is even questioning the talking points.

All that said, it’s hardly beyond the pale to question Israel’s credentials as a democracy. And “right to exist” is not something that exists in international law. No state has the “right to exist”. Which explains why states appear and disappear all the time.
 
Synco said:
This is so obviously false that I'm not even sure if responding with the most blatant counterexamples of Nazis and Islamists would be appropriate. (Not that the issue stops there.)

Obviously. No Jewish person or institution ever was the same thing as the religion of Judaism. That doesn't mean they can't be targeted for being Jewish.
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Clearly you can criticise Israel in an antisemitic manner, but many people(not antisemites) simply questioning things related to Israel in isolation is constantly framed as antisemitism, which I think is ridiculous. My post was probably missing some detail.
 
esmufc07 said:
My understanding is they lived in what was then Judea before the Romans removed them and renamed the area. Could be wrong though. @2cents will be able to give an answer I’m sure.
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I’m not really any kind of authority on Jewish history. But in any case, from Abraham to Netanyahu it is all highly contested and politicized, so while there’s certainly an interesting discussion to be had, it’s probably best left for a different thread.
 
So here is the redacted Jewish labour movements submission to the ehrc

https://www.scribd.com/document/438372031/Redacted-JLM-Closing-Submission-to-the-EHRC

It's pretty damming stuff

70 testimonies of current and former labour party officials

And an additional 100 testimonies from members who have experienced or witnessed antisemitism at party meetings

I guess the Corbyn fanatics will dismiss this as Zionist propaganda... But if this is indicative of the evidence the ehrc have then that report is going to be pretty bad for labour and frankly if it's true the party and it's leadership should be nowhere close to public office
 
sun_tzu said:
So here is the redacted Jewish labour movements submission to the ehrc

https://www.scribd.com/document/438372031/Redacted-JLM-Closing-Submission-to-the-EHRC

It's pretty damming stuff

70 testimonies of current and former labour party officials

And an additional 100 testimonies from members who have experienced or witnessed antisemitism at party meetings

I guess the Corbyn fanatics will dismiss this as Zionist propaganda... But if this is indicative of the evidence the ehrc have then that report is going to be pretty bad for labour and frankly if it's true the party and it's leadership should be nowhere close to public office
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Choice excerpts on the thread here. It is pretty bad.
 
Scanned the first 20 or so pages, will give it a proper read later. Damning from what I've seen, some real troubling stuff in there. Fully expect the usual people to dismiss it however.
 
If Corbyn steps down ,you watch all this concern about anti-semitism in the Labour Party disappear .
 
Drifter said:
If Corbyn steps down ,you watch all this concern about anti-semitism in the Labour Party disappear .
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I‘m sure the usual suspects here will continue to crusade against Anti-semitism and all forms of bigotry after the election.
 
How does the EHRC investigation work? Presumably this is just one body of evidence among many that will be need to be evaluated independently?
 
Kaos said:
I‘m sure the usual suspects here will continue to crusade against Anti-semitism and all forms of bigotry after the election.
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I was talking about the media and disgruntled labour party members.
 
(Taken from the other thread)
sullydnl said:
That report is extremely damning but what's worse is some of the reaction from Labour supporters still trying to downplay it or (worse again) outright accusing those in the report of lying.
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These immediate counterattacks are extremely disturbing, but sadly not surprising at all. In the end, this kind of general atmosphere makes those things in the report possible.
 
Political correspondent from Sky went to Birmingham to see what people on the ground were saying. Interesting read and again underlined the damage Corbyn does to Labours electoral chances.

 
Drifter said:
If Corbyn steps down ,you watch all this concern about anti-semitism in the Labour Party disappear .
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I would expect that too. If it's back to neo-liberalism the status quo is preserved.
 
Drifter said:
If Corbyn steps down ,you watch all this concern about anti-semitism in the Labour Party disappear .
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Not a chance
If the ehrc report is as bad as the Jewish labour movement document suggests this is going to go on for a while
It might make sense to keep Corbyn round long enough to chuck him under the bus when it gets published
But there will be potential prosecutions ... Court cases and ultimately potentially huge claims and financial reprocussions

It could even potentially bankrupt labour
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...estigation-corbyn-executive-a9153561.html?amp

I certainly don't think it disappears when Corbyn finally goes
 
It never fails to amaze me that some deny the report and claim it's a smear. They cling to the fact that it was the JLM's submission, but they forget there are many more cases submitted to the EHRC from others within Labour.
 
Super Hans said:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The establishment want people to believe this man hates Jews. <a href="https://t.co/zaj6dpx7dy">pic.twitter.com/zaj6dpx7dy</a></p>&mdash; Scott Jackson (@scottjunglist1) <a href="">December 3, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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JC's undying condemnation of the IRA consists of 5 EDMs, none of which that he tabled, and none before 1994, and an article about Ian Paisley's widow saying he was polite.
 
Super Hans said:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The establishment want people to believe this man hates Jews. <a href="https://t.co/zaj6dpx7dy">pic.twitter.com/zaj6dpx7dy</a></p>&mdash; Scott Jackson (@scottjunglist1) <a href="">December 3, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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You're making the innocent mistake of taking a politician's word as writ. This is what I can never fathom with Corbyn's supporters, they treat every word that comes out of his mouth like it is some form of gospel truth. His actions and deeds conflict massively with what he talks about. Just look at his whole stance on Brexit as an example.
 
KingCantona87 said:
You're making the innocent mistake of taking a politician's word as writ. This is what I can never fathom with Corbyn's supporters, they treat every word that comes out of his mouth like it is some form of gospel truth. His actions and deeds conflict massively with what he talks about. Just look at his whole stance on Brexit as an example.
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I’d have to disagree, I think Corbyn is one of those politicians that genuinely and consistently abides by his principles, his voting record in parliament dignifies that.

You could argue his Brexit stance is abit of an outlier but I feel that’s his attempt to placate some form of democratic consensus within his party.

Outside of Brexit, what other issues do you think he’s contradicted himself on?
 
Kaos said:
I’d have to disagree, I think Corbyn is one of those politicians that genuinely and consistently abides by his principles, his voting record in parliament dignifies that.
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Love this. If this was a current labour MP consistently voting against Corbyn, you wouldn’t applaud them for voting with their principles, you’d be asking why they hadn’t been deselected.
 
nickm said:
Love this. If this was a current labour MP consistently voting against Corbyn, you wouldn’t applaud them for voting with their principles, you’d be asking why they hadn’t been deselected.
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Sure, if their sole 'principle' from their entire time in politics was to oppose anything Corbyn stood for then full marks for consistency. But again I'd question their ambition if all they stood for was 'Anything But Corbyn'.
 
Almost like having a record-breakingly unpopular leader offering yet more Brexit negotiations wasn't a vote winner. Finally, after all the debate, Corbyn has proven to be the unmitigated, unelectable disaster his detractors consistently said he was. Well fecking done.

Good news is that Labour will have a long time in opposition to get itself together.
 
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sullydnl said:
Almost like having a record-breakingly unpopular leader offering yet more Brexit negotiations wasn't a good idea vote winner. Finally, after all the debate, Corbyn has proven to be the unmitigated, unelectable disaster his detractors consistently said he was. Well fecking done.

Good news is that Labour will have a long time in opposition to get itself together.
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Nah, it was all just paper talk, remember?


Shit wait, does this mean no free Broadband anymore? Damn, whilst I was dying waiting for a hospital appointment, I was hoping to at least watch some truly free porn :(
 
Redlambs said:
Nah, it was all just paper talk, remember?


Shit wait, does this mean no free Broadband anymore? Damn, whilst I was dying waiting for a hospital appointment, I was hoping to at least watch some truly free porn :(
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Sure showed those centrists though.
 
Thoughts going forward:

1) Brexit should presumably now be somewhat neutralized as a divisive issue within the party given that remaining is now no longer an option politically. Labour as an opposition party are confronted with a Tory government who are now entirely responsible for Brexit and all that comes with it. It will hardly matter whether they're being criticized for Brexit as a concept or the particular version of Brexit they deliver. All stripes can now back a block anti-Tory message.

2) The problem of having an unelectable leader will also shortly be a non-issue, provided another equally unpopular leader isn't elected.

3) This just leaves the split in the party between the left and centrists. As ever, the onus is on the dominant force within the party to convince the others to follow. Throughout Corbyn's reign the left in the party have done the opposite, actively attacking the centrist group. This was a clearly factor in the election defeat and is something the left of the party need to accept was a critical mistake on their part. They have to woo the centrists. That doesn't necessarily mean suddenly adopting centrist policies but it does mean not acting like such insufferable cnuts, as if they don't need the moderates in the slightest. They do. Unfortunately the reaction from the left of the party tonight seems to largely be to continue attacking the moderates, as if they're to blame for Corbyn proving as inept as was long predicted.
 
sullydnl said:
Thoughts going forward:

1) Brexit should presumably now be somewhat neutralized as a divisive issue within the party given that remaining is now no longer an option politically. Labour as an opposition party are confronted with a Tory government who are now entirely responsible for Brexit and all that comes with it. It will hardly matter whether they're being criticized for Brexit as a concept or the particular version of Brexit they deliver. All stripes can now back a block anti-Tory message.

2) The problem of having an unelectable leader will also shortly be a non-issue, provided another equally unpopular leader isn't elected.

3) This just leaves the split in the party between the left and centrists. As ever, the onus is on the dominant force within the party to convince the others to follow. Throughout Corbyn's reign the left in the party have done the opposite, actively attacking the centrist group. This was a clearly factor in the election defeat and is something the left of the party need to accept was a critical mistake on their part. They have to woo the centrists. That doesn't necessarily mean suddenly adopting centrist policies but it does mean not acting like such insufferable cnuts, as if they don't need the moderates in the slightest. They do. Unfortunately the reaction from the left of the party tonight seems to largely be to continue attacking the moderates, as if they're to blame for Corbyn proving as inept as was long predicted.
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I agree with all that.

The problem going forward is I just don't see brexit biting the Tories in the ass like everyone seems to be relying on, it's dangerous for Labour to expect that. They need to get their shit together, unite behind a strong leader and properly (not just the usual soundbite shite) go through their failings.



Or just blame brexit and keep telling everyone else to feck off and vote Tory.
 
Reckon he's going to have many nights lying awake thinking that all this was not worth it in the end. Could have just stayed a obscure backbencher activist whose constituents were loyal to him. Could have walked after 2017 when he managed to make the most gains in seats for the party in a long time and bringing mainstream attention to left wing values. Instead he's been hanging on to power despite being smeared relentlessly. Character assasinations, own party MPs turning against him, hostile media and now a humiliating loss.

If it were me I'd be haunted for the rest of my days as like Michael Foot his name will be a synonym for failed leadership from here on in.
 
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