Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Mockney said:
Because they voted him in. With a record number of new memberships in the wake of the GE. And in a climate where Brexit was in part a (misguided) democratic revolt against the political elites and their perceived rejection of the average voter's views, I don't see how the Labour Party seeming to do the exact same thing, to one of the few sections of society that still largely support them, is going to suddenly ring in a new dawn of cohesive harmony. They never forgave Clegg for his "betrayal"

However much you/I/we may personally agree with ousting Corbyn, ideologically (or even tactically) the timing and manner of it looks terrible. Especially as this should be the perfect time to be grilling the backtracking bullshit of Gove, BJ & Farage, rather than creating another, self made, internal crisis, and ESPECIALLY (all caps) as there's no real stand out alternative to ring in this supposed new, strong, Labour dawn. Again, omni-shambles.
Click to expand...

I doubt Corbyn could grill a sandwich
 
Pexbo said:
It's a sadder reflection of politics than the man himself.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. A combination of the press and the public's love of a 'polished' politico. You have to succumb to populist measures to stand a chance.
 
Pexbo said:
If go as far as saying he's a decent man but not a decent politician.

He's more suited to a protest party than the main opposition.

It's a sadder reflection of politics than the man himself.
Click to expand...
your right on all accounts, but its still sad that men like that can't be great politicians.

i don't even nessicssarly agree with all his politics, but he at least seems to be honest, genuinely care and be in politics to try and better the country. how many politicians ever can you say that about?

its just a shame that politics has become about theatre, catchy slogans, looking and sounding the right way... if their was more men like him in parliament, both on the left and the right we would have a far better country.
 
Dobba said:
Nope, she opposed Blair's clusterfeck in Iraq and hasn't spent the time since trying to block investigations into it
Click to expand...
Wanted us to go into Syria and oust Assad, though.
 
Untied said:
I doubt Corbyn could grill a sandwich
Click to expand...

And yet all the people who can have abdicated that responsibility in favour of splitting their own party in two. George Foreman himself couldn't have been more self interested, and he named 5 of his children George!
 
Last edited:
Ubik said:
Wanted us to go into Syria and oust Assad, though.
Click to expand...
She made her case and did a damn sight more to attempt to protect civilians and aid workers alike than the rest. Especially Hilary Benn and his much lauded at the time speech. Only thing missing was him ripping his shirt open and beating his chest like King Kong while a Union flag waved behind him.
 
Corbyn lives in what looks like an unkempt gardeners shed, yet being in London it'll be worth five times my gaff.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
your right on all accounts, but its still sad that men like that can't be great politicians.

i don't even nessicssarly agree with all his politics, but he at least seems to be honest, genuinely care and be in politics to try and better the country. how many politicians ever can you say that about?

its just a shame that politics has become about theatre, catchy slogans, looking and sounding the right way... if their was more men like him in parliament, both on the left and the right we would have a far better country.
Click to expand...

It's the Tory way, to deflect from actual issues and to try to dumb down politics. As long as Labour continue to play to their games, they're probably going to struggle to diverge from the Tories as much as would be ideal.
 
Mockney said:
And yet all the people who can have abdicated that responsibility in favour of splitting their own party in two. George Foreman himself couldn't have been more self interested, and he named 5 of his children George!
Click to expand...

:lol: that's an incredible fact.

And look, I'm far from thrilled with the way this is playing out. There is no way Labour should be dominating headlines tonight. The PLP has been horribly opportunistic. And Corbyn has received continually unfair treatment. e.g. the coverage of a single Liz Kendall campaigning heckler yesterday.

But given that the majority of those who supported Corbyn will have wanted a Remain vote, he should probably have given his position much greater consideration than he appears to have done.
 
Corbyn Statement said:
Our country faces a huge challenge following Thursday's vote to leave the European Union. And the British people have a right to know how their elected leaders are going to respond.

We need to come together to heal the divisions exposed by the vote. We have to respect the decision that has been made, hold the government to democratic account over its response, and ensure that working people don't pay the price of exit.

Neither wing of the Tory government has an exit plan. Labour will now ensure that our reform agenda is at the heart of the negotiations that lie ahead. That includes the freedom to shape our economy for the future and the necessity of protecting social and employment rights.

One clear message from last Thursday's vote is that millions of people feel shut out of a political and economic system that has let them down and scarred our country with grotesque levels of inequality.

I was elected by hundreds of thousands of Labour Party members and supporters with an overwhelming mandate for a different kind of politics.

I regret there have been resignations today from my shadow cabinet. But I am not going to betray the trust of those who voted for me - or the millions of supporters across the country who need Labour to represent them.

Those who want to change Labour's leadership will have to stand in a democratic election, in which I will be a candidate.

Over the next 24 hours I will reshape my shadow cabinet and announce a new leadership team to take forward Labour's campaign for a fairer Britain - and to get the best deal with Europe for our people.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
unchanged_lineup said:
I've just seen a statement shared on facebook of Burnham saying he'd never take part in a coup, is that real?
Click to expand...
Might be. As done as Corbyn looks to some, with the Unions backing him completely, and his militant new fans (hundreds of thousands), I don't think he can be ousted. Burnham probably knows this. Labour are throwing the dice now, but it may not work the way they want. If this goes to a leadership election, and if Corbyn wins again, then those MPs will have to either tow the line or leave the party (as their base would be clearly telling them what they want them to do).

They're making a calculated gamble that Corbyn won't want to face a no confidence motion, and won't want to go through a leadership challenge. It might be a good gamble, but it looks like it might not. He doesn't seem to be a man who's about to resign.
 
Adisa said:
My friends who are Corbyn supporters say they will not forgive him for his no show during the referendum campaign.
Click to expand...

I don't get this, it's been taken to wierd extremes and just comes across as opportunism. He did plenty of highly visible interviews and his cabinet did the main debates (and failed themselves). It seems a bit pathetic as if he'd have done just one of those debates would it not have been a no show?

Corbyn was not winning anyone over. Benn as a leader would not have won anyone over either. There was enough debate for the public to be fully informed and consider all angles.
 
The idea that Corbyn would've had any influence on the Brexit vote - and has thus somehow betrayed his core electorate - is opportunist nonsense. He wouldn't have changed anything with a more visible campaign. He was always stuck between a rock and a racist place. The whole thing was a Tory-made clusterfeck, and all this achieves is gifting them a shelter from the backlash at the most opportune time to be highlighting it.
 
Last edited:
Mockney said:
The idea that Corbyn would've had any influence on the Brexit vote - and has thus somehow betrayed his core electorate - is opportunist nonsense. He wouldn't have changed anything with a more visible campaign. He was always stuck between a rock and a racist place. The whole thing was a Tory clusterfeck, and all this achieves is allowing them a shelter from the backlash at the most opportune time to seize on it.
Click to expand...

His low-key approach was the correct one. No need to publicise that the entire party leadership - from centre-right to left- disagreed with a good part (non-London/Liverpool/Manchester) of the base on this issue.
 
Mockney said:
The idea that Corbyn would've had any influence on the Brexit vote - and has thus somehow betrayed his core electorate - is opportunist nonsense. He wouldn't have changed anything with a more visible campaign. He was always stuck between a rock and a racist place. The whole thing was a Tory-made clusterfeck, and all this achieves is gifting them a shelter from the backlash at the most opportune time to be highlighting it.
Click to expand...
The word "opportunist" is odd there, as we've had several people that voted for him in September on this forum say they feel let down by him on the issue. They weren't being opportunistic, they're genuinely gutted, and somewhat annoyed that the leader they put a lot of faith in was a "7 and a half out of 10" on the matter for them.
 
Ubik said:
Lisa Nandy, Angela Eagle and John Healey aim to meet with Corbyn tomorrow to tell him to go, according to the Huffington Post - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...corbyn-leadership_uk_5770426ee4b0d2571149dcd4

Being leader of the Labour party without the soft left on side is not entirely plausible.
Click to expand...
It is if he gains a renewed mandate. It would be pretty terrible to have another leadership election, but if he wins convincingly again, then those other MPs will simply have to realign their views.

He's said that he will stand, so I guess we'll know by tomorrow.
 
Ubik said:
The word "opportunist" is odd there, as we've had several people that voted for him in September on this forum say they feel let down by him on the issue. They weren't being opportunistic, they're genuinely gutted, and somewhat annoyed that the leader they put a lot of faith in was a "7 and a half out of 10" on the matter for them.
Click to expand...

Well they should probably question themselves on not knowing his views on the matter having voted for him but also that they can only be satisfied by leaders who only talk in absolutes. Are you seriously saying to make the argument for the EU you had to pretend it had no flaws?

It's interesting that even Cameron made the on balance argument and admitted it's flaws but Corbyn doing it is treachery to the PLPs strategy of talking as if people are idiots.
 
Despite knowing how harmful it will be to Labour, part of me wants him to stand again just as a "feck you" to these stupid MPs.
 
Ubik said:
The word "opportunist" is odd there, as we've had several people that voted for him in September on this forum say they feel let down by him on the issue. They weren't being opportunistic, they're genuinely gutted, and somewhat annoyed that the leader they put a lot of faith in was a "7 and a half out of 10" on the matter for them.
Click to expand...
All I've seen is an anecdotal story tbf.
 
Ubik said:
The word "opportunist" is odd there, as we've had several people that voted for him in September on this forum say they feel let down by him on the issue. They weren't being opportunistic, they're genuinely gutted, and somewhat annoyed that the leader they put a lot of faith in was a "7 and a half out of 10" on the matter for them.
Click to expand...

The opportunism in question refers more to the shadow cabinet coup brigade, who are using something clearly beyond Corbyn's control as an excuse for downing tools to force him out.
 
Last edited:
Cheesy said:
It's the Tory way, to deflect from actual issues and to try to dumb down politics.
Click to expand...
which we have seen so clearly in the last month, we should have seen intelligent people having intelligent discussions, their was none of that at all.

Cheesy said:
As long as Labour continue to play to their games, they're probably going to struggle to diverge from the Tories as much as would be ideal.
Click to expand...
always thought that was the issue with new labour, they just cam across as the conservative party for 'new money'(for lack of a better phrase) and its left the voting public with very little choice, you basically have right wing, or slightly less right wing, all who talk and act the same way.
 
Mockney said:
The opportunism in question refers to the shadow cabinet coup brigade, not Caf voters, who are using something clearly beyond Corbyn's control as an excuse for downing tools to force him out.
Click to expand...
It's either a genuine grievance or not, and given that many in the PLP are just as enthusiastic about EU membership as folk that voted for Corbyn, I'm not sure why they're unable to feel the same way.

And let's not put this down purely to the shadow cabinet acting out, either. It was started by backbenchers tabling a no confidence motion, which was expected to get support from well over 50% of Labour MPs in the secret ballot on Tuesday, meaning Corbyn would explicitly no longer carry the confidence of Labour MPs. Corbyn pre-empted this by sacking Benn, which then triggered the resignations.

The key point in all of this is what Watson mentioned in his statement earlier - the Labour party needs to be ready to govern immediately. We are potentially months away from another general election. Therefore the question that most people expected to be able to dance around until 2020, namely whether people seriously think the public would vote for Jeremy Corbyn to be Prime Minister, is now paramount. Now, I can understand when people will respond to this by saying there's no-one else that looks like a PM in waiting, either. But I can think of a few that could stand at least a chance, and could at least prevent a grown majority. Either we go for that chance, or roll over and let Boris camp down for the next few years.
 
Silva said:
All I've seen is an anecdotal story tbf.
Click to expand...
I don't want to speak for them, and they may well have changed their minds in which case I apologise and hope they correct me, but Thierry, DOTA and Untied have all mentioned it in the past few days.
 
Ubik said:
It's either a genuine grievance or not, and given that many in the PLP are just as enthusiastic about EU membership as folk that voted for Corbyn, I'm not sure why they're unable to feel the same way.

And let's not put this down purely to the shadow cabinet acting out, either. It was started by backbenchers tabling a no confidence motion, which was expected to get support from well over 50% of Labour MPs in the secret ballot on Tuesday, meaning Corbyn would explicitly no longer carry the confidence of Labour MPs. Corbyn pre-empted this by sacking Benn, which then triggered the resignations.

The key point in all of this is what Watson mentioned in his statement earlier - the Labour party needs to be ready to govern immediately. We are potentially months away from another general election. Therefore the question that most people expected to be able to dance around until 2020, namely whether people seriously think the public would vote for Jeremy Corbyn to be Prime Minister, is now paramount. Now, I can understand when people will respond to this by saying there's no-one else that looks like a PM in waiting, either. But I can think of a few that could stand at least a chance, and could at least prevent a grown majority. Either we go for that chance, or roll over and let Boris camp down for the next few years.
Click to expand...

There is a fundamental contradiction at the heart of Labour.
It has a constituency in the biggest cities who seem to be be remain (and presumably more liberal) voters. It has a constituency in the north who seem to be leave (and socially conservative) voters. This faultline has been pushed at well in 2010 and 2015, and it has become clear that no matter the economic inclinations of the Labour leadership - from centre-right to left, they are unanimously socially liberal and pro-EU, with the only disparity being how much they are willing to pander to fears of immigration (without actually doing anything about them).
The referendum has exposed the divide completely. If it leads to snap elections, no matter the candidate, the party will have a pro-EU message.* And so close to the referendum, its traditional non-metro voters will notice it and will vote accordingly. Labour will have a historical and potentially fatal defeat. So it would actually be in the centrists' interests to keep Corbyn in, killing off leftist Labour forever.
Labour's best hope right now is the Lib-Lab-Green-SNP alliance, but looking at 2015 votes and referendum results, they would probably still lose to a UKIP-Con coalition (the only uncertainty being due to how much short-term damage Brexit has done).

*Abandoning this position so soon after the referendum will cost them London.

Edit: forgot to add that Labour's biggest recent hero could well be a little more toxic in a week. Great shape in which to be heading into a general election.
 
Last edited:
Ubik said:
But I can think of a few that could stand at least a chance, and could at least prevent a grown majority.
Click to expand...

Who? Not Benn. Jarvis doesn't want it, and Chukka's too green (and pussied out last time)..

I understand the idea, but it's a gamble that could very well cost Labour even more voters (and at worst, future loyalties) for the sake of placating its politicians. And what's the point of an ideologically saitisfied party with no voters?
 
I remember Corbyn supporters moaning about the media coverage soon after his election (and ever since), and opponents saying he must do better.
It's worth looking at a few things:
Cameron is pretty decent with the press, and had the support of most major newspapers, as opposed to none for Corbyn. Yet he completely failed to get his point across in the referendum. The talking points of the side supported by the mass-market tabloids became accepted truth.
It is also worth looking at this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...t-nearly-everything-survey-shows-8697821.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html
Which, to me, shows that once the popular media has decided to spread a narrative, it will stick regardless of facts. Hence Ed Miliband eating a sandwich became the face of the elections.

In this situation, and with no immediate prospect of the Sun supporting a liberal Labour leader, the job for communication becomes much harder and must be done outside the press. Don't ask me how though.

Simon Foster: So, this is all going to spin along from here. We're going to have a vote and go to war. We'll fight people, kill them. Our children will get killed. This is exactly the sort of thing that I didn't want to do when I went into politics. This is the opposite of what I wanted to be doing.

Malcolm Tucker: That's why you have to stay in Government, to influence things. In here, you can influence things, you can delay things. Out there, you're just another fecking mouthy, fecking shouty mad fecker who people don't want to make eye contact with. Remember Mary? Remember what happened? She took a stand on health. Everybody decided that she was mental.

Simon Foster: Because The Sun showed a picture of her with wide eyes and her head on a cow.

Malcolm Tucker: Well I happened to find that a particularly powerful image.
Click to expand...
 
Mockney said:
Who? Not Benn. Jarvis doesn't want it, and Chukka's too green (and pussied out last time)..

I understand the idea, but it's a gamble that could very well cost Labour even more voters (and at worst, future loyalties) for the sake of placating its politicians. And what's the point of an ideologically saitisfied party with no voters?
Click to expand...
Jarvis is definitely open now. Though I'm still unsure on how good he is, beyond the image. Umunna does seem to have an impact with voters. Though he's very unpopular with Corbyn's. Lisa Nandy is a compromise option. Ditto Owen Smith. No-one's ideal, but I can see arguments for all of them. The latter two are probably long shots, given David Miliband somehow has better odds than them.

Your final sentence is essentially where I see the party going if he remains in charge, unfortunately.
 
Tbf, I personally think Umunna is inevitable at some point, but they need to time his ascension right. Right now, I think it's a waste, and too close to his sudden, mysterious drop out last time. Jarvis seems to be being pushed into it more than anything else, due to his right wing media-proof backstory.
 
Last edited:
Ubik said:
Jarvis is definitely open now. Though I'm still unsure on how good he is, beyond the image. Umunna does seem to have an impact with voters. Though he's very unpopular with Corbyn's. Lisa Nandy is a compromise option. Ditto Owen Smith. No-one's ideal, but I can see arguments for all of them. The latter two are probably long shots, given David Miliband somehow has better odds than them.

Your final sentence is essentially where I see the party going if he remains in charge, unfortunately.
Click to expand...


What kind of campaign do you think Labour should run?

I was doing some more thinking and did find one plausible angle.
A (genuinely, unapologetically) Blairite leader. Curbs on immigration, business-friendly, and hawkish on foreign policy, arguing for ties with Europe on the basis of jobs. (Nissan). Use the Labour name (and an alliance with LD) to keep London voters in line.
If Chilcot is bad, paint Blair as a martyr - good old days under PM Blair (compared to Cameron and Corbyn), he was a strong leader, strong on national security ad ISIS would never have risen under him.

The Sun needs a scapegoat if things go badly so soon after Brexit, and the Conservative leader might be poisoned enough for them to support Blair v. 2.
 
Mockney said:
The idea that Corbyn would've had any influence on the Brexit vote - and has thus somehow betrayed his core electorate - is opportunist nonsense. He wouldn't have changed anything with a more visible campaign. He was always stuck between a rock and a racist place. The whole thing was a Tory-made clusterfeck, and all this achieves is gifting them a shelter from the backlash at the most opportune time to be highlighting it.
Click to expand...
Wow come on Mockney let's be real here, Corbyn was the head of Labour Yes Campaign, he has to fall on his sword. Just look at him here, the lefty prick
stream_img.jpg

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...to-head-labour-yes-campaign-for-eu-referendum

Oh wait .
 
Nikhil said:
They could beg David Miliband to come back and be their leader.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure he'd be so stupid to stake his claim right now or that he'd be popular enough. Chukka wouldn't go down well either, they're both exactly the kind of polished proffesional politician that people don't trust.

Honestly the only one who I can see an argument for is Jarvis but it's only based on the fact he can be sold to the idiots, I mean he was in the army he has to be strong right? He can just throw back any challenge by saying he fought for this country, they'd lap that right up.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.