Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Ubik said:
Not sure Wren-Lewis will be back - http://www.theguardian.com/politics...remy-corbyn-cant-win-next-election-owen-smith

None of them have been particularly complimentary about McDonnell's use of it.
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I was genuinely excited when it was announced. There was such an opportunity to do something fantastic with it. There still is, given half a chance. To be honest, I hold McDonnell more responsible than Corbyn for its failure. He didn't take it seriously enough.

Sorry to sound like an ITK, but I actually know one of the SPADs who works for McDonnell. The report was not flattering. He is interested in posturing more than policy. Apparently everyone tried to talk him out of the stunt with the Little Red Book, but he went ahead with it anyway.

After September he really needs to focus on policy constructively, working with the EA Council and business and unions to offer a credible alternative.
 
Ramshock said:
Two endless middle eastern wars that crippled the global economy not good enough for you?
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Rather a facile argument, unless you believe that one wrong must beget others out of a misguided penance.

Maybe you can point to an scenario where Corbyn could be relied upon to act? Something comparable to the Rwandan genocide or the Congolese wars perhaps, or would he fall short even then?
 
ClutchHunter said:
Firstly, if we're already under attack then we're presumably fecked. Retaliating with nukes that will kill millions of civilians is atrocious and barbaric.

Secondly, don't you think an enemy should be able to deduce that we won't actually retaliate unless we have an utterly careless, uncaring person for a prime minister? And if they're just mad enough to do it anyway, they probably don't care about their civilian casualties.

feck the so-called "deterrent". It's a waste of space and money.
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Congratz... you just disproved game theory
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Rather a facile argument, unless you believe that one wrong must beget others out of a misguided penance.

Maybe you can point to an scenario where Corbyn could be relied upon to act? Something comparable to the Rwandan genocide or the Congolese wars perhaps, or would he fall short even then?
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Jeremy Corbyn or anyone else who would be PM would act accordingly in such a situation. This left is soft on military action rhetoric is tired and cliched. Playing to your political base whilst in opposition is entirely different to being the countries leader. You know this well
 
Smores said:
Its a bit much when even the Daily Mail are slagging off Smiths attempts and declaring him worse than Corbyn. To think all these terribly electable and qualified Labour MPs who care so much about the party stood aside and let Eagle and Smith challenge.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...tent-Owen-Smith-s-house-cards-collapsing.html
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Remember when we were being told that Eagle/Smith were just the initial challengers and someone more viable would emerge long-term?:lol:
 
Very Kenobi-ish vibe from this photo

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Help me Jeremy Kenobi, you're my only hope.
 
Cheesy said:
Remember when we were being told that Eagle/Smith were just the initial challengers and someone more viable would emerge long-term?:lol:
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I think that it is clear that Eagle/Smith were stalking horses once the disparate unhappy parties thought things were desperate enough that Corbyn needed to be challenged. There are plenty of viable candidates in one sense.

The political logic dictated that after the vote of confidence Corbyn would resign and figures like Cooper, Jarvis and Starmer (basically the big names who have remained silent throughout the crisis) would enter the fray. Of course, that didn't happen, so it looks like the other candidates chose to keep their powder dry rather than face Corbyn and a selectorate which would probably not choose them.
 
Frosty said:
I think that it is clear that Eagle/Smith were stalking horses once the disparate unhappy parties thought things were desperate enough that Corbyn needed to be challenged. There are plenty of viable candidates in one sense.

The political logic dictated that after the vote of confidence Corbyn would resign and figures like Cooper, Jarvis and Starmer (basically the big names who have remained silent throughout the crisis) would enter the fray. Of course, that didn't happen, so it looks like the other candidates chose to keep their powder dry rather than face Corbyn and a selectorate which would probably not choose them.
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The hustings and Corbyn's rallies have no doubt increased membership's confidence in Corbyn. Ironic, that.
 
DenisIrwin said:
The hustings and Corbyn's rallies have no doubt increased membership's confidence in Corbyn. Ironic, that.
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Perhaps yes. Corbyn has certainly had more energy and enthusiasm since the leadership contest has started then he showed leading the party in my view. Possibly because he was speaking to a friendly audience.

Post September, the two key issues remain unresolved for Labour. First, the fact that the party membership is unrepresentative of Labour voters nationwide, and even more unrepresentative of the electorate at large. Second, the conundrum of how the current policies can win a GE majority when it flies in the face of electoral history and, probably, electoral logic.
 
Surely this thing about Khan being booed at the Corbyn rally today is bullshit?
 
Ubik said:
Surely this thing about Khan being booed at the Corbyn rally today is bullshit?
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Could be true. Owen Jones was getting a lot of flak from Corbyn fans for merely suggesting that the whole thing might not work out and for minor criticisms and he's about as left as they come, so Khan getting booed considering he's been fairly vocal in the fact that Corbyn might not be a good choice seems like something that would happen.

Suppose some would argue that Khan's been cynical and pragmatic in his approach of nominating Corbyn in the leadership contest to either open the debate or look like a supportive leftie, before going in another direction now he's got the Mayor gig and may have longer term leadership ambitions. The truth's somewhere in the middle...but then reasoning hasn't been the strong point of either side of the debate in this Labour dispute.
 
Just saw a video of it, good grief. Can't wait for this month to be over.
 
Cheesy said:
Could be true. Owen Jones was getting a lot of flak from Corbyn fans for merely suggesting that the whole thing might not work out and for minor criticisms and he's about as left as they come, so Khan getting booed considering he's been fairly vocal in the fact that Corbyn might not be a good choice seems like something that would happen.

Suppose some would argue that Khan's been cynical and pragmatic in his approach of nominating Corbyn in the leadership contest to either open the debate or look like a supportive leftie, before going in another direction now he's got the Mayor gig and may have longer term leadership ambitions. The truth's somewhere in the middle...but then reasoning hasn't been the strong point of either side of the debate in this Labour dispute.
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I image he's getting a slagging off from Corbyn supporters because of his comments today in The Guardian. Although not that I care much as Khan pretty much fits your second paragraph, the back down on train fairs was enough to loose my interest in him(Also I'm pretty sure he hasn't talked at all about deliveroo payment scandul)
 
Sweet Square said:
I image he's getting a slagging off from Corbyn supporters because of his comments today in The Guardian. Although not that I care much as Khan pretty much fits your second paragraph, the back down on train fairs was enough to loose my interest in him(Also I'm pretty sure he hasn't talked at all about deliveroo payment scandul)
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Yeah, admittedly I don't know too much about him and it's still very early in his mayoral tenure, but it'll be interesting to see whether or not he ends up being another polished figure who looks good but doesn't deliver all that much.
 
Cheesy said:
Could be true. Owen Jones was getting a lot of flak from Corbyn fans for merely suggesting that the whole thing might not work out and for minor criticisms and he's about as left as they come, so Khan getting booed considering he's been fairly vocal in the fact that Corbyn might not be a good choice seems like something that would happen.

Suppose some would argue that Khan's been cynical and pragmatic in his approach of nominating Corbyn in the leadership contest to either open the debate or look like a supportive leftie, before going in another direction now he's got the Mayor gig and may have longer term leadership ambitions. The truth's somewhere in the middle...but then reasoning hasn't been the strong point of either side of the debate in this Labour dispute.
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I'll just leave these here...



http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...y-london-was-jeremy-corbyn-s-not-sadiq-khan-s




Anyone on this football fan's forum other than Ubik outraged at a bit of booing?
 
Dobba said:
To be fair Ubik did rush to condemn Ian Austin shouting "Sit down and shut up, you're a disgrace" while Corbyn was talking about the Iraq War dead in the HoC.

Actually they didn't, I just made that up.
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feck me I dont always agree with you but that was a good one :lol:
 
DenisIrwin said:
Anyone on this football fan's forum other than Ubik outraged at a bit of booing?
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Not so much outraged as resigned at the way the Left eats its own young. It's like the Spanish Civil War and the trenches outside Barcelona all over again....

Also, not that it matters much now, but this welfare Bill vote has taken on almost mythical proportions for all involved.
 
DenisIrwin said:
I'll just leave these here...



Anyone on this football fan's forum other than Ubik outraged at a bit of booing?
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Outraged is the wrong word, more dismayed that people in the party are booing the new Labour mayor of London. The one who a few months back was enduring a racist campaign from Goldsmith.

But then it's a personality cult now, so I can't be that surprised.
 
Hardly surprised by Khan, rode Corbyn's popularity to get him elected as Mayor and now stabbing him in the back to further via own career. Khan shouldn't be surprised to find himself booed by the same people who were invaluable in helping him achieve the nomination and consequent victory.

Sian Berry will probably be licking her lips.
 
Ubik said:
Outraged is the wrong word, more dismayed that people in the party are booing the new Labour mayor of London. The one who a few months back was enduring a racist campaign from Goldsmith.

But then it's a personality cult now, so I can't be that surprised.
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I didn't think much of Khan's campaign, either, to be honest. Him winning felt rather 'lesser evil' - which is a shame as I liked the bloke before.
 
Kaos said:
Hardly surprised by Khan, rode Corbyn's popularity to get him elected as Mayor and now stabbing him in the back to further via own career. Khan shouldn't be surprised to find himself booed by the same people who were invaluable in helping him achieve the nomination and consequent victory.

Sian Berry will probably be licking her lips.
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Yeah, I've got no problem with Khan not backing Corbyn per se, but more so with the fact he nominated the guy and promised to stay out of the race, but now has somehow judged it a good time to turn against Corbyn at the time where his opponent both looks like a terrible potential leader, and is also struggling to actually differentiate himself from Corbyn policy wise.

I mean...from what Smith's told us, what's he offering that's different? He's trying to pitch a fair left-wing rhetoric to everyone, but that's exactly what Corbyn's doing. There's been an argument that Corbyn was sort of weak on defence, but then that's kind of gone out the window when Smith made those daft comments about getting ISIS round the table. You thus can't really argue he's more competent image wise than Corbyn, cause he's been making constant gaffes. So, if it's taken for this point for someone not to really back Corbyn anymore, then what's the reasoning?
 
That quote of him "not getting involved" is from less than a week after the referendum, in response to Hasan repeatedly asking him whether Corbyn should step down.
 
Frosty said:
Not so much outraged as resigned at the way the Left eats its own young. It's like the Spanish Civil War and the trenches outside Barcelona all over again....

Also, not that it matters much now, but this welfare Bill vote has taken on almost mythical proportions for all involved.
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I don't think people quite understand that the Labour party's vote had no impact on the vote succeeding or failing.
 
Dobba said:
Kezia and McTernan? Oh Corbyn is in trouble now, with the Scottish Labour election dream team against him.
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Christ, I nearly forgot about McTernan. It's difficult to take any possibility of Labour becoming a more likable party seriously when that cretin still clings onto whatever dying relevance he has left.

I don't personally dislike Dugdale; she's an utterly hopeless politician, but she seems like a nice enough person.

Kaos said:
So her main issue with Corbyn is she doesn't think he'll ever be prime minister. She on the other hand is well on track to being Scotland's first minister with her one MP :lol:
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It's embarrassing. The decline of Scottish Labour quite genuinely has feck all to do with Corbyn; it happened before his election, has been happening since the mid 2000's, and while Corbyn did nothing to reverse it last year, that's barely his fault at all. The constant need for Labour to divert all of their problems and loss of support onto various scapegoats, which have ranged from the SNP to Miliband to Corbyn, is part of why they're in decline.

It's also worth noting that Smith's record on Scotland is terrible. Couldn't be arsed to turn up to, or voted against, most of our full fiscal measures last year...and that's despite him thinking the Barnett Formula is outdated. Dugdale should be holding him to account on this, but I don't expect she will.
 
ThierryHenry said:
I don't think people quite understand that the Labour party's vote had no impact on the vote succeeding or failing.
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That isn't quite the point. Rather that it was seen as an indication of where Labour was heading.
 
So Dugdale believes Owen Smith can be PM because he has radical policies and a credible plan of getting back into goverment.

Anyone know what this credible plan is?
 
ThierryHenry said:
I don't think people quite understand that the Labour party's vote had no impact on the vote succeeding or failing.
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It was also different from the tax credits cuts, which the Tories were implementing through a statutory instrument. It was also a second reading, not a final vote.
 
Smores said:
So Dugdale believes Owen Smith can be PM because he has radical policies and a credible plan of getting back into goverment.

Anyone know what this credible plan is?
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Getting the SNP...errr, I mean ISIS, round the table.
 
Kaos said:
Hardly surprised by Khan, rode Corbyn's popularity to get him elected as Mayor and now stabbing him in the back to further via own career. Khan shouldn't be surprised to find himself booed by the same people who were invaluable in helping him achieve the nomination and consequent victory.

Sian Berry will probably be licking her lips.
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Thats pretty much my opinion. I really dont want to see such booing but neither do i want to see key figures running to the papers to slag off the leader. Khan isnt representing his voters with that action at all, i hope he at least tried to argue when they told him he had to publically slag off Corbyn.
 
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