Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Cheesy said:
There's an element of truth to that, but then at the same time surely his detractors should like this, insofar as one of their initial criticisms of him was that he wouldn't win power because he's soft and naive? Again, the issue here is that once that facade is increasingly taken away, it becomes clear that a lot of Corbyn's detractors don't like him because they don't think he's a "strong" leader - they dislike him because they fundamentally disagree with his policy platform.
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How does him trying and failing to oust the democratically elected deputy leader make him look strong? Surely it makes him look a total hypocrite and weak?

The broader public see him as a weak leader, that’s his image problem in electability. His USP was the idea of a ‘new’ honest politics but his last manifesto was rated as dishonest by the IFS, he’s consistently lied about what deal he can get from the EU on Brexit and here he is now trying to ride roughshod over the will of the membership after Watson advocates for a Brexit Policy in line with the views of the membership.
 
How does this "deal and remain" actually happen?

Will this deal, or should I say WA need to be passed by parliament before going on a public vote?

I don't see there's any chance of the WA changing much, even more so when the EU know you're going to put a WA plus remain on a public vote.

If Labour can let the public decide instead of letting parliament vote it down then it is a defacto remain poll as I don't see the WA or WA plus any preliminary trade talks that may happen in such short amount of time getting much votes. EU have said they can't do any trade talks until you actually withdraw so it's the disliked WA and remain.
 
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Fluctuation0161 said:
How is Labours house burning down? You still got faith in your poll after their accuracy the last 2 elections?
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If the day after the election when the tories win again, you come on here in genuine astonishment saying “I really didn’t see that coming”, don’t be surprised if you get laughed at.
 
I'm not fully clued up on all things Labour. What’s the actual purpose of a party Deputy Leader? Other parties make do without one.

I think the timing and manner of trying to remove Watson is damaging but I can understand that it makes no sense to have a front bencher who seems to disagree with and undermine the leadership so often. He should be free to do that, but from the back benches. The comparisons with Johnson removing the whip from 21 members are a bit absurd.

In other news, good to see Labour support the Lib Dem policy of scrapping Ofsted. Onwards and upwards.

 
nickm said:
If the day after the election when the tories win again, you come on here in genuine astonishment saying “I really didn’t see that coming”, don’t be surprised if you get laughed at.
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Again, no detail and you're not anwsering the question, just arrogance.

I can guess which party you align with. :D
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Again, no detail and you're not anwsering the question, just arrogance.

I can guess which party you align with. :D
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You are denying the evidence from polling for starters. I haven’t even mentioned how Corbyn polls but it’s even worse than the Labour Party. When the leader polls even worse than the historical lows for his party, then I’m entitled to say thats a serious problem. And I’m not being arrogant, I'm being frustrated and angry that labour won’t do anything about it. I’ll have to sit here for another five years listing to the opposition whinge on about the evil tories while being too useless to do anything about it. I think labour and many of its supporters prefer to whinge about the tories than actually do what’s necessary to kick them out.

Sorry, rant over. Tired of labour supporters denial.

BTW I don’t align with any party, I will vote anti brexit tactically at the election.
 
MadMike said:
I'm not fully clued up on all things Labour. What’s the actual purpose of a party Deputy Leader? Other parties make do without one.

I think the timing and manner of trying to remove Watson is damaging but I can understand that it makes no sense to have a front bencher who seems to disagree with and undermine the leadership so often. He should be free to do that, but from the back benches. The comparisons with Johnson removing the whip from 21 members are a bit absurd.

In other news, good to see Labour support the Lib Dem policy of scrapping Ofsted. Onwards and upwards.

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I’m a parent. Don’t have a problem with ofsted. Not sure this will be a popular policy with anyone other than teachers and failing schools.
 
Ubik said:
Andrew Fisher (policy bloke) has apparently gone. Tasty conference so far.
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Tasty conference indeed
Statement from Jewish labour movement
.
.

Time and again, the Party leadership and the NEC have demonstrated a complete failure in both judgement and commitment to tackle antisemitism. With a statutory investigation by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission well underway, this is the latest example of institutional failing.

We have learnt tonight from press reports that the Party wishes to make sweeping changes to the disciplinary rules on antisemitism, without consulting us, its only Jewish affiliate, or any communal organisation. To add insult to injury, they will debate these changes at conference on the Jewish Sabbath, when religiously observant Jewish Labour delegates will be silenced, unable to participate in the debate.

The Jewish community has zero confidence that proposals to hand the NEC more powers on disciplinary matters will solve this crisis. There have been countless examples of NEC members either engaging in antisemitism or turning a blind eye to it. It will simply streamline the process of letting antisemites off the hook.
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nickm said:
I’m a parent. Don’t have a problem with ofsted. Not sure this will be a popular policy with anyone other than teachers and failing schools.
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Surely as a parent you'd want Ofsted replaced with a system that actually could provide you with better information about whether your children's school is providing them with the teaching they need?
 
NinjaFletch said:
Surely as a parent you'd want Ofsted replaced with a system that actually could provide you with better information about whether your children's school is providing them with the teaching they need?
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As a parent (and husband to a teacher) I wasn’t aware the current system was so broken it needed scrapping.
I’m not unhappy with the information available. My main issue with ofstead was inspection frequency sometimes is too low.
 
Cheesy said:
Yeah...you'll know yourself I've been critical of Corbyn at times, but the reaction to this from Labour moderates determined to see themselves above politicking when it was basically what the Blair government was often lauded for is fairly silly. In a way I wonder if it's a group of people now perpetually out of power trying to reinvent themselves in a feel-good way - their tactics don't win them elections anymore and they know their ideas aren't particularly inventive or interesting, so instead they're appealing to the notion that they're civil and above it all. When it comes to actual politics there's just a general nothingness to them.

At least the Lib Dems can claim to be strong on Brexit...Labour figures like Watson are inherently undermined in their criticisms of Corbyn insofar as they're still in the party, thereby they're enabling and furthering the very leader they claim to hate by ensuring he has a larger group of MP's and making it easier for him to stay in power. Own Smith was slating him today...but the question has to be asked why he's in a political party whose leadership have a platform that's just utterly out of tune with his own.
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Yep and the circle continues over and over.


This is what Tom Watson and other really want, to be treated a bit like C list celebrity.


Looking at the New Labour era, with its love in shite for like Brit Pop, the fixation with the 2012 olympics opening ceremony and really the fact they've pissed off to host podcasts, appearing on BBC reality shows, setting up foundations set up in their name etc, shows that the core idea of the New Labour Project was politics is show business for ugly people.
 
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redshaw said:
How does this "deal and remain" actually happen?

Will this deal, or should I say WA need to be passed by parliament before going on a public vote?

I don't see there's any chance of the WA changing much, even more so when the EU know you're going to put a WA plus remain on a public vote.

If Labour can let the public decide instead of letting parliament vote it down then it is a defacto remain poll as I don't see the WA or WA plus any preliminary trade talks that may happen in such short amount of time getting much votes. EU have said they can't do any trade talks until you actually withdraw so it's the disliked WA and remain.
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It would need to be passed by parliament but the very simple point a lot of people in here are missing is remain might not win a referendum. In that case should the left have tried for a less damaging version of Brexit or not? Surely the answer is a resounding yes but i look forward to hearing why not.
 
nickm said:
As a parent (and husband to a teacher) I wasn’t aware the current system was so broken it needed scrapping.
I’m not unhappy with the information available. My main issue with ofstead was inspection frequency sometimes is too low.
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The newly introduced changes to the Ofsted framework are a step in the right direction; however, the system is inherently flawed and not a true representation of the quality of teaching and learning within a school. That’s for better and worse, too. There are outstanding primary schools that have not been inspected for a very long time that have been placing minimal focus upon the progression of skills in the foundation areas of curriculum.

The drive to improve attainment data in English and maths has resulted in incredibly narrow curriculums being taught to pupils - the blame for that has to be placed upon Ofsted (and government) and its relentless pursuit of results, irrespective of the socioeconomic issues within many schools. Don’t even get me started on budgetary issues.

The only credit I can give Ofsted is that they’ve finally listened to experienced practitioners that use evidence-based research to improve their practice. The new framework should finally reward these schools, even if they perform below national average.

Of course, I fully expect dickheads in the media (who have never stepped foot inside a classroom) to over simplify this policy idea and pretend that Ofsted is important “so that parents can make informed choices”. Tosh.
 
That poll was commissioned by Ian Austin for his new group "Mainstream" that aims to fight "extreme left and right wing politics" but will probably end up focusing almost entirely on the left. The extreme left wing views he is worried about is seemingly stuff like wanting to abolish the monarchy, meanwhile on the extreme right..
 
nickm said:
As a parent (and husband to a teacher) I wasn’t aware the current system was so broken it needed scrapping.
I’m not unhappy with the information available. My main issue with ofstead was inspection frequency sometimes is too low.
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Which is one of the things they're proposing to change.

I do actually agree with your point of view that not enough people know about what Ofsted materially does for it to be a vote winning policy, but it's definitely the right thing to do. I believe it's also Lib Dei policy to scrap it, and it would probably be Tory policy if they actually gave a shit about anyone else and didn't all send their spawn to private school.
 
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NinjaFletch said:
Which is one of the things they're proposing to change.

I do actually agree with your point of view that not enough people know about what Ofsted materially does for it to be a vote winning policy, but it's definitely the right thing to do. I believe it's also Lib Dei policy to scrap it, and it would probably be Tory policy if they actually gave a shit about anyone else and didn't all send their spawn to private school.
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Like Corbyn and Abbott did?
Out of interest what % of all labour MPs other than Corbyn and Abbott sent their kids to fee paying schools?
 
nickm said:
I’m a parent. Don’t have a problem with ofsted. Not sure this will be a popular policy with anyone other than teachers and failing schools.
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Yeah but the teachers are a pretty big part of our educational system though, don't you think? The vast majority of them dislike Ofsted. The random inspections, the subjectivity and unerliability of them, the rankings that pit one school against another, the effect it has on badly performing schools etc. etc. It's at the very least in need of big reform, if not scrapping, from what teachers tell me.

NinjaFletch said:
Which is one of the things they're proposing to change.

I do actually agree with your point of view that not enough people know about what Ofsted materially does for it to be a vote winning policy, but it's definitely the right thing to do. I believe it's also Lib Dei policy to scrap it, and it would probably be Tory policy if they actually gave a shit about anyone else and didn't all send their spawn to private school.
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Indeed. It was the policy adopted at last year's conference at the proposal of Layla Moran who was a teacher and then school governor herself.

She obviously didn't miss a chance tweeting about it today :D

 
sun_tzu said:
Like Corbyn and Abbott did?
Out of interest what % of all labour MPs other than Corbyn and Abbott sent their kids to fee paying schools?
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You've missed the point there. I was suggesting that the Tories aren't interested in reforming OFSTED because they don't interact with the state school system AND, as they are Tories, don't care about people that aren't themselves, so have no interest in pursuing it as a policy because it doesn't directly enrich them or their mates. I wasn't suggesting that their sending their children to private school was unique.

I've always been a fan of the suggestion that all politicians should be forced to send their children to state school as a means to actually getting politicians to take education policy seriously.
 
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NinjaFletch said:
You've missed the point there. I was suggesting that the Tory's aren't interested in reforming OFSTED because they don't interact with the state school system AND, as they are Tories, don't care about people that aren't themselves, so have no interest in pursuing it as a policy because it doesn't directly enrich them or their mates. I wasn't suggesting that their sending their children to private school was unique.

I've always been a fan of the suggestion that all politicians should be forced to send their children to state school as a means to actually getting politicians to take education policy seriously.
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At gunpoint?...
I mean if for example somebody wins election And their kid is half way through gcse's they should be dragged by force from their existing school and thrown into another because their mum or dad is now a local councillor despite the fact they might be half way through a different curriculum
I'm not sure it sounds that logical a policy if I'm being honest
Abolishing private schools would seem to have more logic than banning some people?
I guess by the same logic people couldn't access private healthcare
Paid legal advice
And do they have to move out if their home into social housing as well... Just curious as to where it ends?
 
sun_tzu said:
Abolishing private schools would seem to have more logic than banning some people?
I guess by the same logic people couldn't access private healthcare
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They're both appalling and should absolutely be ended.
 
sun_tzu said:
At gunpoint?...
I mean if for example somebody wins election And their kid is half way through gcse's they should be dragged by force from their existing school and thrown into another because their mum or dad is now a local councillor despite the fact they might be half way through a different curriculum
I'm not sure it sounds that logical a policy if I'm being honest
Abolishing private schools would seem to have more logic than banning some people?
I guess by the same logic people couldn't access private healthcare
Paid legal advice
And do they have to move out if their home into social housing as well... Just curious as to where it ends?
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Well, I mean, I'd probably argue by legislation, but we can do it your way...

And hell, you're not going to find much argument in the Corbyn thread that we should outright abolish them. They're bastions of privilege that leach off of the state.
 
sun_tzu said:
Like Corbyn and Abbott did?
Out of interest what % of all labour MPs other than Corbyn and Abbott sent their kids to fee paying schools?
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Didn’t Corbyn divorce his previous wife because she insisted on sending their kids to private school and he hated the idea? I’m sure I read something like that ages ago.
 
MadMike said:
Stalin would also agree with you and he was pretty far from Jesus. I think your thinking is more inline with the former than the latter.
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I remind you of Stalin?

EDIT - Shit, I forgot we kicked off at 2. My mild interest in this conversation is unlikely to last until after the match.
 
MadMike said:
Some of your views, like abolishing private healthcare and education, seem very Stalinist yeah. Does that shock you? It really shouldn't.
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Sorry but murdering a few thousand people would be Stalinist. Public education and healthcare is socialist and distinctly reasonable.
Its a pretty outrageous comment imo
 
caid said:
Sorry but murdering a few thousand people would be Stalinist. Public education and healthcare is socialist and distinctly reasonable.
Its a pretty outrageous comment imo
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Entitled to your opinion, but the faux outrage is merely hilarious to me. Stalin was not only known for murdering millions, but also for being a totalitarian Leninist. I'm sure you can tell which dimension of Stalin I'm referring to. As I'm sure you can tell the difference between having a public education and healthcare, and having those exclusively by outlawing private practice.
 
MadMike said:
Entitled to your opinion, but the faux outrage is merely hilarious to me. Stalin was not only known for murdering millions, but also for being a totalitarian Leninist. I'm sure you can tell which dimension of Stalin I'm referring to. As I'm sure you can tell the difference between having a public education and healthcare, and having those exclusively by outlawing private practice.
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I'm not outraged at you, more at the comment. Outraged probably isn't the right term really. Its a dumbass comment
 
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