Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Grinner said:
Cos Corbyn would have left it
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Well, he had his reasons and I kind understand his point of view. Sweden has just joined the NATO and I do not like it, one of the reasons I love Sweden is that it kept it's neutrality very well and did not participate directly in a war for 300 years. Joining NATO puts Sweden in a war camp and I do not like that. I do not want my tax money to go fund American wars (via NATO) like in Libya and destroy a country and send it to stone ages killing thousands of civilians.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/mde190032012en.pdf

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/20/nato-killed-civilians-in-libya-its-time-to-admit-it/
 
Giggsyking said:
Well, he had his reasons and I kind understand his point of view. Sweden has just joined the NATO and I do not like it, one of the reasons I love Sweden is that it kept it's neutrality very well and did not participate directly in a war for 300 years. Joining NATO puts Sweden in a war camp and I do not like that. I do not want my tax money to go fund American wars (via NATO) like in Libya and destroy a country and send it to stone ages killing thousands of civilians.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/mde190032012en.pdf

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/20/nato-killed-civilians-in-libya-its-time-to-admit-it/
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Is there an overriding sentiment in Libya that they'd rather not have had NATO intervention?
 
Giggsyking said:
Well, he had his reasons and I kind understand his point of view. Sweden has just joined the NATO and I do not like it, one of the reasons I love Sweden is that it kept it's neutrality very well and did not participate directly in a war for 300 years. Joining NATO puts Sweden in a war camp and I do not like that. I do not want my tax money to go fund American wars (via NATO) like in Libya and destroy a country and send it to stone ages killing thousands of civilians.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/mde190032012en.pdf

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/20/nato-killed-civilians-in-libya-its-time-to-admit-it/
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I don't think you understand how a defensive alliance works - being in NATO doesn't oblige you to join in a NATO member's pet war crimes project, it only obliges you to defend them if they're attacked on home soil. That's why it's such a powerful deterrent to somebody starting a war with a NATO member. So although obviously the US, UK, France or whichever is the warmonger du jour will obviously put pressure on you to join them in a war as their NATO ally, there's no obligation to do so unless they are attacked at home.

Even then, you look at somewhere like Turkey who I believe have been attacked in e.g. the Syria conflict and it hasn't automatically triggered the defence clause - there is some room for nuance and/or doubt as to the origin of an attack.
 
TwoSheds said:
I don't think you understand how a defensive alliance works - being in NATO doesn't oblige you to join in a NATO member's pet war crimes project, it only obliges you to defend them if they're attacked on home soil. That's why it's such a powerful deterrent to somebody starting a war with a NATO member. So although obviously the US, UK, France or whichever is the warmonger du jour will obviously put pressure on you to join them in a war as their NATO ally, there's no obligation to do so unless they are attacked at home.

Even then, you look at somewhere like Turkey who I believe have been attacked in e.g. the Syria conflict and it hasn't automatically triggered the defence clause - there is some room for nuance and/or doubt as to the origin of an attack.
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I understand very well Sir.
 
VorZakone said:
There is literally no formal promise on paper. Whatever some diplomat said in whatever backroom meeting, it's not binding. Note that Gorbachev himself said there was no promise. You can believe that or not.

Putin has violated the Budapest Memorandum by the way but don't let that distract you.
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I appreciate that. However, why is NATO concerned with defending Ukraine which isn’t a member?

from the outside it seems there is more to it than meets the eye.
Rather than take the word of NATO which means absolutely nothing to me, akin to how the words of the UK and US governments mean nothing.

And why is the world so up in arms about Russia invading Ukraine but not Israel’s 76 year old occupation of Palestine?
 
Drainy said:
:confused:
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If you ignore the civilians killed by NATO in Libya (which I will not), but what did the NATO achieve by removing that dictator? replaced him with multiple authoritarians and religious extremists and a far worse country? Libya is far far far worse now than under his brutal regime. There are ffs now literally open air slavery markets in Libya now.

So yes. If you are not fixing it, do not make it worse.
 
Giggsyking said:
If you ignore the civilians killed by NATO in Libya (which I will not), but what did the NATO achieve by removing that dictator? replaced him with another multimple authoritarians and religious extremists and a far worse country? they are far far far worse now than under his brutal regime. There are ffs now literally open air slavery markets in Libya now.
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What about the civilians targeted and killed, and about to be targeted and killed by Gaddafi? He was literally threatening to wipe out Benghazi

One of my best friends had an uncle that was taken away and murdered by Gaddafi's men in Benghazi and some of his other uncles fought in the uprising.

It was the consensus of east Libya that a no fly zone was needed and it wasn't just American interventionism.

What replaced him was a democratic election, but it didn't last..
 
Pav1878 said:
I appreciate that. However, why is NATO concerned with defending Ukraine which isn’t a member?

from the outside it seems there is more to it than meets the eye.
Rather than take the word of NATO which means absolutely nothing to me, akin to how the words of the UK and US governments mean nothing.

And why is the world so up in arms about Russia invading Ukraine but not Israel’s 76 year old occupation of Palestine?
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I've repeated this before. Two things can be true at the same time: the Ukrainians deserve support. The Palestinians deserve support.

I feel no need to throw in irrelevant arguments to diminish the Palestinian cause. You on the other hand seem to let your judgment be clouded. Am I wrong on this? Feel free to correct me.

The Western hypocrisy is real. It's an absolute disgrace how they've handled Israel. But they were right to help Ukraine defend itself against an illegal invasion.

Also, something funny about the words of the UK & US government meaning nothing to you but apparently Russia's words do.
 
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Back to Corbyn: he also wants nuclear disarmament. Noble, but unrealistic. No one is giving up their nukes now. Not entirely anyway. Countries might agree to a reduction but no one is gonna throw away their whole nuclear arsenal.

Quite the contrary, China is expanding their nuclear arsenal.
 
VorZakone said:
I've repeated this before. Two things can be true at the same time: Ukraine deserves support. The Palestinian people deserve support.

I feel no need to throw in irrelevant arguments to diminish the Palestinian cause. You on the other hand seem to let your judgment be clouded. Am I wrong on this? Feel free to correct me.

The Western hypocrisy is real. It's an absolute disgrace how they've handled Israel. But they were right to help Ukraine defend itself against an illegal invasion.

Also, something funny about the words of the UK & US government meaning nothing to you but apparently Russia's words do.
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I think you misunderstand me.

The words of Russia mean nothing to me either. My point is should we be believing the rhetoric from either side?

the conduct of the US in aiding and abetting Israel’s onslaught in Gaza and the gaslighting associated with it, surely leaves open the possibility they may be gaslighting us on Russia too?

and I agree that there has been an appalling double standard when it comes to Ukraine and Gaza. Ukraine flags flying all over the UK and on government buildings but not one Palestinian flag.

I’m not trying to diminish the Ukrainian cause at all, although I do take exception to the fact that Ukraine seems to support Israel which makes no sense to me when they should feel most affinity for the Palestinians.
 
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VorZakone said:
It actually is as simple as Putin being an evil dictator.
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A bit of a simplification don’t you think?
IMO there is evil leadership at the top of every ‘major’ country, be it Biden, Sunak, Satanyahu or Putin. They can all take that prize.
 
Pav1878 said:
I think you misunderstand me.

The words of Russia mean nothing to me either. My point is should we be believing the rhetoric from either side?

the conduct of the US in aiding and abetting Israel’s onslaught in Gaza and the gaslighting associated with it, surely leaves open the possibility they may be gaslighting us on Russia too?

and I agree that there has been an appalling double standard when it comes to Ukraine and Gaza. Ukraine flags flying all over the UK and on government buildings but not one Palestinian flag.

I’m not trying to diminish the Ukrainian cause at all, although I do take exception to the fact that Ukraine seems to support Israel which makes no sense to me when they should feel most affinity for the Palestinians. Maybe because they side with them because they are white too? Who knows?
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It's because the Israelis are in a proxy war with Iran (and by extension Russia) just as Ukraine is. It's actually not at all complicated and a perfectly reasonable position to take when you're in an existential war.

To not believe anything any government says doesn't make you clever, even when they're all lying. They all say true things sometimes, what makes you clever is picking out the bits that are true and knitting them together.
 
Pav1878 said:
A bit of a simplification don’t you think?
IMO there is evil leadership at the top of every ‘major’ country, be it Biden, Sunak, Satanyahu or Putin. They can all take that prize.
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No, I don't think it's a simplification. Putin has agency and made a very deliberate choice to invade Ukraine, a sovereign country.
 
Pav1878 said:
I think you misunderstand me.

The words of Russia mean nothing to me either. My point is should we be believing the rhetoric from either side?

the conduct of the US in aiding and abetting Israel’s onslaught in Gaza and the gaslighting associated with it, surely leaves open the possibility they may be gaslighting us on Russia too?

and I agree that there has been an appalling double standard when it comes to Ukraine and Gaza. Ukraine flags flying all over the UK and on government buildings but not one Palestinian flag.

I’m not trying to diminish the Ukrainian cause at all, although I do take exception to the fact that Ukraine seems to support Israel which makes no sense to me when they should feel most affinity for the Palestinians.
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Zelensky came out recently offering aid to Gaza and said he supports two states, Israel and Palestine: https://www.yahoo.com/news/zelensky-ukraine-recognizes-both-israel-101710116.html

One might argue it's optics. You're free to make that argument. I don't know his true intentions here.
 
VorZakone said:
Zelensky came out recently offering aid to Gaza and said he supports two states, Israel and Palestine: https://www.yahoo.com/news/zelensky-ukraine-recognizes-both-israel-101710116.html

One might argue it's optics. You're free to make that argument. I don't know his true intentions here.
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I would wager it’s nothing but optics.

the Ukrainian people I’ve seen interviewed outside of Ukraine seem to support Israel. I think race and the fact there is a large Jewish population in Ukraine has something to do with it.

and quite possibly because Islamophobia is inherent in Western societies
 
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TwoSheds said:
It's because the Israelis are in a proxy war with Iran (and by extension Russia) just as Ukraine is. It's actually not at all complicated and a perfectly reasonable position to take when you're in an existential war.

To not believe anything any government says doesn't make you clever, even when they're all lying. They all say true things sometimes, what makes you clever is picking out the bits that are true and knitting them together.
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I don’t think your average Ukrainian is thinking of who is in a proxy war with who. I think it comes down to ethnicity and Islamophobia. Also, even if proxy wars came into the thinking of the Ukrainian government, why would they not show solidarity with a people who are facing their own existential threat in the Palestinians? Why wouldn’t they support those who are suffering a genocide? In my book proxy wars go out the window when it cometo humanitarian matters.

I didn’t say not believing what governments say makes me clever. Knitting together the truth would be great, but how do you know for sure that what you are picking out is the truth?
 
Pav1878 said:
And what are your thoughts on Western leaders?
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I'd say I'm not impressed by leaders of the big Western nations. Sunak, Scholz, Biden, Macron, it's all meh. I've been somewhat warming up to Macron lately though, some recent speeches and statements of his have been good IMO.

Biden has generally been good on domestic economic policies but he's been one of, if not the most pro-Israeli US president in modern history going far beyond what was necessary or reasonable. And it'll be a dark page in his legacy.
 
Pav1878 said:
I would wager it’s nothing but optics.

the Ukrainian people I’ve seen interviewed outside of Ukraine seem to support Israel. I think race and the fact there is a large Jewish population in Ukraine has something to do with it.

and quite possibly because Islamophobia is inherent in Western societies
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But there's also this.

More than 300 Ukrainian scholars, activists and artists express their solidarity with Palestinians in an open letter.
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https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/11/8/ukrainian-letter-of-solidarity-with-the-palestinian

But it doesn't necessarily matter in the grand scheme of things, there'll be varied opinions in all countries on a particular issue. It doesn't have to mean that one resorts to explaining away Russian or Israeli aggression. Not saying you do that by the way.
 
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Pav1878 said:
I don’t think your average Ukrainian is thinking of who is in a proxy war with who. I think it comes down to ethnicity and Islamophobia. Also, even if proxy wars came into the thinking of the Ukrainian government, why would they not show solidarity with a people who are facing their own existential threat in the Palestinians? Why wouldn’t they support those who are suffering a genocide? In my book proxy wars go out the window when it cometo humanitarian matters.

I didn’t say not believing what governments say makes me clever. Knitting together the truth would be great, but how do you know for sure that what you are picking out is the truth?
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On the first bit, it's easy to say until the bad guy offers to help you not get bombed.

On the second, you don't, that's just how life goes. Nobody ever said it would be easy or nice all the time, you just have to do your best to understand it all and hope you're doing a good job.
 
You'd think Corbyn is the reincarnation of Hitler and Pol Pot with the obsession there is with denouncing him as some terrible plight on British political history.

Never mind the fact that both the Tories and the current Labour party are filled with genuine bigots.
 
Kaos said:
You'd think Corbyn is the reincarnation of Hitler and Pol Pot with the obsession there is with denouncing him as some terrible plight on British political history.

Never mind the fact that both the Tories and the current Labour party are filled with genuine bigots.
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No, just a marxist from long-dead era of British politics that has no place in modern Britain or the world.
 
Kaos said:
You'd think Corbyn is the reincarnation of Hitler and Pol Pot with the obsession there is with denouncing him as some terrible plight on British political history.

Never mind the fact that both the Tories and the current Labour party are filled with genuine bigots.
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The gutter/corporate press have a villain that a lot of the public dislike as well and will use him as a punching bag till the end of time. That he represents the far left is a great coincidence or the reason they hate him depending on how you see it.
 
Kaos said:
You'd think Corbyn is the reincarnation of Hitler and Pol Pot with the obsession there is with denouncing him as some terrible plight on British political history.

Never mind the fact that both the Tories and the current Labour party are filled with genuine bigots.
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They just want the good days back.

1D4C7EB700000578-0-image-a-7_1417751815368.jpg


Grinner said:
So you're quite sure Corbyn would have supported Ukraine?
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German exports have increased to the countries the surround Russia. Britain is doing the same with things like drone equipment and heavy machinery

The average age of a Ukrainian solider is 40 if not older and they have loss lots of ground that they will unlikely be able to take back. Western “support” was increasing arms sales, destroying Ukrainian labour and pushing more privatisation in that economy.

On the Corbyn point. Ex British military talked about a coup if Corbyn won and serving British soldiers used pictures of Corbyn as target practice. Had Labour won in 2017 or 2019 then the British state and the capitalist class would have wholly shat their brains out and caused a political and economic crisis.

With a Corbyn led Labour government we wouldn’t have never got to stage of pretending a prime minster job is deciding how many times to hit help Ukraine button.
 
Sweet Square said:
They just want the good days back.

1D4C7EB700000578-0-image-a-7_1417751815368.jpg



German exports have increased to the countries the surround Russia. Britain is doing the same with things like drone equipment and heavy machinery

The average age of a Ukrainian solider is 40 if not older and they have loss lots of ground that they will unlikely be able to take back. Western “support” was increasing arms sales, destroying Ukrainian labour and pushing more privatisation in that economy.

On the Corbyn point. Ex British military talked about a coup if Corbyn won and serving British soldiers used pictures of Corbyn as target practice. Had Labour won in 2017 or 2019 then the British state and the capitalist class would have wholly shat their brains out and caused a political and economic crisis.

With a Corbyn led Labour government we wouldn’t have never got to stage of pretending a prime minster job is deciding how many times to hit help Ukraine button.
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Have you seen the state of the British military lately? It's laughable to suggest that a coup was a reality. It was far more real in the 70s when there were actual meetings about it and organisations set up.

Is it a PMs job to hit the help Palestine button?
 
Grinner said:
Have you seen the state of the British military lately? It's laughable to suggest that a coup was a reality. It was far more real in the 70s when there were actual meetings about it and organisations set up.

Is it a PMs job to hit the help Palestine button?
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I think he just meant to say 'no' but threw a lot of extra in there.
 
Grinner said:
Have you seen the state of the British military lately? It's laughable to suggest that a coup was a reality. It was far more real in the 70s when there were actual meetings about it and organisations set up.
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Thankfully the British army is shite but outside help is always available and it wouldn’t have gone up against any armed forced. Left winger getting into power and a political/economic crisis following is a repeating story. At the very least a economic crisis would have been very likely.

Grinner said:
Is it a PMs job to hit the help Palestine button?
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Help has to actual mean something.

There’s political pressure which a PM or a political party can push - recognising a Palestine state and voting in favour of Palestine or material help like stopping arms contracts to companies who sell to Israel. It should of course do all of these things but all of this requires going up against established/powerful political forces. Which tbf I think Corbyn and those around him somewhat understood but well there are big structural reasons why he didn’t win and why his policy platform would have faced immense pressure.

I’m not sure anyone wants to discuss it because it’s nerdy/boring and most just want to cosplay Fukuyama.
 
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Grinner said:
Have you seen the state of the British military lately? It's laughable to suggest that a coup was a reality. It was far more real in the 70s when there were actual meetings about it and organisations set up.

Is it a PMs job to hit the help Palestine button?
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No one is even suggesting giving the Palestinians a fraction of the help the Ukrainians are receiving. What we would expect however is to perhaps cease selling arms to a quasi-genocidal state guilty of war crimes, and not to politically purge anyone outspoken about the horror unfolding quite openly. Wonderful if we can actually join the international community in recognising a Palestinian state too. Is that too much to ask?
 
Kaos said:
No one is even suggesting giving the Palestinians a fraction of the help the Ukrainians are receiving. What we would expect however is to perhaps cease selling arms to a quasi-genocidal state guilty of war crimes, and not to politically purge anyone outspoken about the horror unfolding quite openly. Wonderful if we can actually join the international community in recognising a Palestinian state too. Is that too much to ask?
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Are Palestinians still committed to the abolition of Israel as a state?
 
Sweet Square said:
Thankfully the British army is shite but outside help is always available and it wouldn’t have gone up against any armed forced. Left winger getting into power and a political/economic crisis following is a repeating story. At the very least a economic crisis would have been very likely.


Help has to actual mean something.

There’s political pressure which a PM or a political party can push - recognising a Palestine state and voting in favour of Palestine or material help like stopping arms contracts to companies who sell to Israel. It should of course do all of these things but all of this requires going up against established/powerful political forces. Which tbf I think Corbyn and those around him somewhat understood but well there are big structural reasons why he didn’t win and why his policy platform would have faced immense pressure.

I’m not sure anyone wants to discuss it because it’s nerdy/boring and most just want to cosplay Fukuyama.
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Is your argument that help to Ukraine hasn't meant anything?
 
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