Jose: "There are those who want to be here at any cost and those who suffer with a little pain."

[Pogue Mahone]

FWIW I also think he's a bit of a cnut but that's fine, as he's our cnut. Fergie was a bit of a cnut too and that never bothered me. We might end up viewing all of this with the same sort of indulgent affection we had for Fergie and his occasional cnutishness, so long as Mourinho gets us back up on our perch. If not, well, this will all get very old very fast.

Or to put it another way, would anyone give a shit about him calling out players like this if we were top of the table and cruising towards a title? I know I wouldn't.

 

[gza the genius]

If Jose was the first coach after Sir Alex, or even after Moyes, I think most people would choose option b. I'm sick of seeing our players go out and for the most part look like they couldn't care less whether they're playing and aren't bothered by the shoreline at all. We saw this with Moyes and LvG - I'm at the point now where anything that needs to be done should be done. Something has to change and the players clearly aren't going to do that on their own and there is no point in protecting them. If they can't handle this small bit of unnamed criticism then they shouldn't be here anyway.

 

[JPRouve]

Seemingly there may be more with this attitude but Pogue asked if he mentioned anyone specifically and I'm just saying he did. I don' think he meant the United locker room is like that - if anything he said many in the locker room aren't like that and went on to name his back 4.

His culture point was a general point about how players are today, they either play through pain or they complain from niggles.

And you see that's why I don't like his comments, your interpretation is reasonable but you look at the thread and the players as a whole are blamed by the fans, you even made it a generational problem when half of the players mentioned as examples by Mourinho are from the same generation, everyone makes his little interpretation.

That comment serves no purpose but still creates dissesion, Mourinho is playing games.


Edit: As for the poll, the players need a kick up the bum, that comment serves no purposes other than create the buzz around Mourinho and I'm still trying to not dislike him.

 

[crossy1686]

To those saying that Mou should have kept this in house and had a word quietly instead, how do you know he hasn't done that already and now he's down right tired of the lax attitude some of our players are demonstrating?

I for one am not against a public bashing if it's warranted and Mou actions recently look like a man who is fed up of attitudes around the camp.

I think the line "it's not for me, it's for United" (which he said twice for emphasis) says everything that needs to be said. Some of our players think they've done everything they needed to do, and now they've arrived at the big stage the results and trophies will follow. As Rio once said to a kid who had just broke through to a Premier League first team, "forget everything you did before, now he real hard work starts".

 

[golden_blunder]

right guys
tell me what poll options you want to see added and ill tidy up the poll

 

[djdhrubs]

I'm not on board with any of the options in the poll, in that I think it's fair to publicly criticise a player, since their job is very much in a public arena. However I think it's probably best practice not to, but the only reference I have for saying that is the actions of Fergie.

In reality, some players may respond positively to public naming and shaming, and I hope Shaw is one of them.

The issue of not wanting to play due to a niggle is also very murky. If you want to avoid aggravating an injury, it would be very stupid to want to play. Long term, you'll end up doing more damage to your team-mates and club, particularly as this was a fiarly unimportant game (in the scheme of things) just before another international break.

As long as a joint decision is made with medical staff and manager, I don't have a problem with a player saying to his work colleagues 'I'm worried I might do long term damage to myself and then rule myself out for an even longer time. What are the chances of this happening?' and having a sensible discussion in that manner. If on the other hand he just unilaterally announces he's not up for playing, that's pretty wimpy and not professional.

We don't really know how Shaw or Smalling went about things on this occasion.

 

[Skills]

To those saying that Mou should have kept this in house and had a word quietly instead, how do you know he hasn't done that already and now he's down right tired of the lax attitude some of our players are demonstrating?

I for one am not against a public bashing if it's warranted and Mou actions recently look like a man who is fed up of attitudes around the camp.

I think the line "it's not for me, it's for United" (which he said twice for emphasis) says everything that needs to be said. Some of our players think they've done everything they needed to do, and now they've arrived at the big stage the results and trophies will follow. As Rio once said to a kid who had just broke through to a Premier League first team, "forget everything you did before, now he real hard work starts".

Because we're just 3 months into the fecking season, and this wasn't his first public outburst at individuals? See Mkhitaryan after Man City, Shaw after Watford?

 

[Smores]

But this isn't exactly his first time he's had digs or gos at his players in this very short season so far which has started irritating me now.

The first time or 2 I tried to rationalise them as Mou giving a bit of much needed sticking then it kind of became frequent and I simply can't sing to that tune anymore.

Lets be frank Mou doesn't give a shit if some or our fans dont like the negativity. If we're not doing well then our fans should already be feeling that way. He's got a job to do and he's going to do it.

If it doesn't work then we can judge his efforts but none of us no more about motivating a team than him. There's a yood chance he sees these players arent motivated by internal pressures and need that extra kick uo the arse. The idea that public criticism can never be beneficial is idiotic.

 

[VP89]

And you see that's why I don't like his comments, your interpretation is reasonable but you look at the thread and the players as a whole are blamed by the fans, you even made it a generational problem when half of the players mentioned as examples by Mourinho are from the same generation, everyone makes his little interpretation.

That comment serves no purpose but still creates dissesion, Mourinho is playing games.


Edit: As for the poll, the players need a kick up the bum, that comment serves no purposes other than create the buzz around Mourinho and I'm still trying to not dislike him.

Shouldn't you blame the interpretation of the forum/media rather than the manager? Its obvious enough what he's trying to say to anyone sensible. Alan Shearer isn't the brightest of sparks on MOTD but he seemed to digest it well enough and concurred with Mourinho's point.

 

[Skills]

right guys
tell me what poll options you want to see added and ill tidy up the poll

I think those are good, if you could I'd prefer to get rid of the last option. Makes the poll look a bit of a joke.

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

Look let's be honest, most our players are pussies.

There are very few of them now that are not physical cowards or mentally weak.

You can't point to one truly great player who shirked playing time, yet you can point to hundreds of has been players who will never be rembered for anything because they didn't put it in or didn't turn out.

This is a competition that requires drive, commitment, physical bravery, mental toughness, ability to cope with stress, pressure, expectation and and everything that goes with it.

They can all play football and are all very talented for the most part, but they aren't winners.

My feelings exactly. All in for Jose to try and turn this around anyway he sees fit.

 

[devilish]

There’s nothing wrong in criticizing players over the media. We’re talking about professionals here and they should be able to tank criticism. Its also true that better players then Smalling and Shaw were criticized in the past and they rose to the challenge and proved their manager wrong. Italy won the past 3 world cups after being criticized heavily by the media. Hansen’s famous ‘you can’t win anything with kids’ proved equally effective. So yes, criticism does help at times.

However its also true that players are become more sensitive in time. SAF had written about that in one of his many books and I fully agree with him. The likes of Scholes and Giggs grew up cleaning the veteran players’ boots and were criticized when they didn’t do a sterling job. As they grew older, a I had a Pally shirt was issued and players who were not pulling their weight in training had to wear it. That shirt was horrendous to watch and since the cliff wasn’t exactly fort Knox, there was the risk of journalists peeping in and revealing the names of those who weren’t doing their job well to the world. Its unthinkable to do these sort of things today. I mean, can you imagine having Rashford cleaning Valencia’s boots? That would cause a shit storm of epic proportions

I think the best answer would be I don't know. If carefully planned then this could prove a god sent. It might give Smalling & Shaw the necessary incentive to step up + it could prepare the fans to any imminent changes that might happen in the future. Fans are a sensitive lot. If one of their favourite players ends up being shown the door then they won’t like it. I remember being pissed off when Ince, Kanchelskis and Hughes were sold. So a bit of an early warning sign with some explanation of why it is happening is desirable. Stating that, if this was a spur of the moment thing than Mourinho is risking big. No one, not even Jose Mourinho can afford having a player’s revolt in his hands. For Mou and our sake, I hope that United have 1-2 top quality defenders lined up in January. The last thing we need is having to rely heavily on pissed off players who wants him out of OT.

 

[Ban]

Keep the C option. People who cant stand Jose and wait for his every mistake or try to paint everything as negative do exist. And guys, be honest about it and vote C.

 

[JPRouve]

Shouldn't you blame the interpretation of the forum/media rather than the manager? Its obvious enough what he's trying to say to anyone sensible. Alan Shearer isn't the brightest of sparks on MOTD but he seemed to digest it well enough and concurred with Mourinho's point.

I blame everyone and myself. The comment is useless whether he privately talked about it to the mentioned players or not. And I kind of hope that he didn't because to me it's a sign of weakness when the manager can't get through his players without a camera and I hope that it concerns more players than Shaw and Smalling because otherwise he made a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[golden_blunder]

I think those are good, if you could I'd prefer to get rid of the last option. Makes the poll look a bit of a joke.

but does it really, I get the impression from reading certain posters that they are just arguing because they have a serious dislike of Mou

 

[CS@SG]

We have had the same debate in 2014 and it was bullshit at the time, also people forgot that it was Shaw who told LVG that he wasn't sharp enough and requested extra training.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...chester-United-for-Premier-League-season.html

I remember him, together with Adnan, hires personal trainer, and went to Dubai, during the summer after lvg 1st season, and both came back fit. Then later on, the incident happened and his leg broken.

 

[AN17]

Shame we don't have CBJ around

Not exactly sure if Jose woulf be a fan of CBJ's lackadaisicial or carefree attitude on defending.
Wonder how he is doing on his loan ?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Yes. Bust they heads, Jose!

 

[RedPnutz]

But that's the thing, it doesn't matter how long he's been dealing with internal issues, he still has to keep them behind closed door. There is no sale by date on when to stop dealing with issues internally.

We're not the only ones with internal problems. Every clubs have them and take care of their dirty laundries in private which is how it should be done

But when the press and the fans are out in full force (e.g., in the Mhikitayan case) it is ok for them to do so but not for the manager to publicly say why he did not play him?

Also, there is no guarantee handling stuff private will work. LVG seemed to have tried that.

 

[VP89]

I blame everyone and myself. The comment is useless whether he privately talked about it to the mentioned players or not. And I kind of hope that he didn't because to me it's a sign of weakness when the manager can't get through his players without a camera and I hope that it concerns more players than Shaw and Smalling because otherwise he made a mountain out of a molehill.

Given the timings I doubt he'd have had much of a chance to give them a stern talking to. IIRC Smalling/Shaw both complained on the day about their "injuries".

 

[Jazz]

See this is where the board needed to step in - they are too passive. If Jose didn't think of it, I would have called him and said fine Shaw a month's wages for the comments his brother made. Tell him if it happens again, he'll be found 3 months wages. All of this you deliver in a way that the player understands the manager and club aren't joking around. Warn him again that if it gets into the press, you'll make him pay an even bigger fine. Lay the standards from the top. Then we could have dealt with it internally, and then Shaw would have gotten the message and no doubt wouldn't be making excuses about not up to playing - hence avoiding a public dressing down by Jose.
It's like we allow our managers to come under extreme pressure and just sit back and watch the fall out. The club doesn't help itself, so can't blame Jose in this instance for going nuclear, though of course I hope he understands he can't be doing this all the time. Maybe he should have done what I suggested there. SAF did it all the time, and even gave out fines for things that didn't come close to what Luke's brother did.

 

[JPRouve]

Given the timings I doubt he'd have had much of a chance to give them a stern talking to. IIRC Smalling/Shaw both complained on the day about their "injuries".

And he should tell them that if they open their mouths once again he will send them to Antartica. The players should shut up, the manager should shut up and the CEO should shut up(fortunately, he has been quite).

 

[PedroMendez]

FWIW I also think he's a bit of a cnut but that's fine, as he's our cnut. Fergie was a bit of a cnut too and that never bothered me. We might end up viewing all of this with the same sort of indulgent affection we had for Fergie and his occasional cnutishness, so long as Mourinho gets us back up on our perch. If not, well, this will all get very old very fast.

Or to put it another way, would anyone give a shit about him calling out players like this if we were top of the table and cruising towards a title? I know I wouldn't.

I wouldn’t care either, but I don’t see the contradiction.

Being top of the table would probably mean, that we function as team. It would also mean, that Mou’s approach is working. Sadly we are midtable and some of our most talented players are not performing well. The idea that you change the culture in the club by publicly moaning after every match is pretty insane. It makes no sense. Good leadership means, that you handle the daily interactions well. It means that you motivate players, while communicating unpleasant news in a productive way. Good leadership is also about being a role-model. You should live-up to the values/ideas that you preach.

The whole sentiment of this thread is based on the idea that the players are overpaid and pampered cry-babies who need to get their shit together. If they don’t perform they deserve punishment.

It is pretty universally accepted, that this approach doesn’t create a good work-environment.

 

[VP89]

And he should tell them that if they open their mouths once again he will send them to Antartica. The players should shut up, the manager should shut up and the CEO should shut up(fortunately, he has been quite).

In the case of Shaw it might well be an accumulation of things though. From defensive errors to the "people surrounding the player" ie. his brother. It may be the case that Shaw's seemingly childish request not to play was the straw breaking the camels back for the manager and it was time to call him out.

Obviously I'm just speculating. I don't really want to defend Jose to no end - but we all knew the players & fans were in for a reality check in signing him so I can't say this suprises me.

 

[ghagua]

There seems to be too much focus on the injuries.

He's questioning everything about the professionalism of the players at the club. And rightly so.

It still relates to the way a player feels about his body. Only the individual would know how his body is feeling. I think it's very professional for a player to speak up if he is not 100%.

 

[Freak]

Mourinho is bang on about some of those mentally weak players. I look at players like Depay, Shaw etc and I see players who are more interested in their phones and fashion statements rather than Football.

 

[jojose]

Dearly loved and respected? Lol. No United squad that finishes outside the top 4 is going to be dearly loved.

Exactly!!
Carrick and Rooney aside, arguably De Gea, I have no loyalty to any of the current lot. None. I have no reason to trust them and defend them to the hilt because time and time again over the last 3.5 years, I have been embarrassed by their attitudes and performances.

Pogba and Zlatan take responsibility. Mata and Herrera also.

Those players are appreciated by match going fans and it is their names that are are regularly sung. Its also those 4 players plus Bailly that Jose has spoken positively about.

Shaw, Mhikitaryan, Fellaini, Memphis, Darmian, Shcniderlin and Martial all have a hell of a long way to go before they come close to being “dearly loved and respected”

 

[Varun]

I wouldn’t care either, but I don’t see the contradiction.

Being top of the table would probably mean, that we function as team. It would also mean, that Mou’s approach is working. Sadly we are midtable and some of our most talented players are not performing well. The idea that you change the culture in the club by publicly moaning after every match is pretty insane. It makes no sense. Good leadership means, that you handle the daily interactions well. It means that you motivate players, while communicating unpleasant news in a productive way. Good leadership is also about being a role-model. You should live-up to the values/ideas that you preach.

The whole sentiment of this thread is based on the idea that the players are overpaid and pampered cry-babies who need to get their shit together. If they don’t perform they deserve punishment.

It is pretty universally accepted, that this approach doesn’t create a good work-environment.

Tbh, my biggest issue with all of this is not how hurt Shaw would be, Smalling would be or whoever. I couldnt care less if I tried. The simple thing is, these players are our assets. We've paid solid money for them and pay them a substantial wage to play for us. Now, its in our interest to get the absolute best out of them. If we think that a word in private will achieve this, that's what we should be doing. If we think benching them for a while achieves this, that's what we should be doing. If we think calling them out in an interview and inviting all sorts of nonsense will achieve this, that's what we should be doing. Imo, the 3rd is least likely to work and thus the worst way to go about it.

This is exactly how I feel about the Mkhi issue as well. We seem determined to shoot ourselves in the foot and create more problems which would be ok if we were cruising along in other aspects but we're not. We have enough problems to deal with to add more of our own.

Also, I find it incredible how people simply say "Mou can do what he wants and player X can feck off if he doesnt like it". Good luck replacing these guys with others who'll love to be called weaklings in the media. The worst thing is, if he loses the dressing room, not only will we lose top players in the window, Mourinho will inevitably be sacked too. Like it or not, no club can afford to replace the squad if it becomes a manager vs players thing. Its always the manager that gets the boot.

 

[Unmutual]

Also, I find it incredible how people simply say "Mou can do what he wants and player X can feck off if he doesnt like it". Good luck replacing these guys with others who'll love to be called weaklings in the media. The worst thing is, if he loses the dressing room, not only will we lose top players in the window, Mourinho will inevitably be sacked too. Like it or not, no club can afford to replace the squad if it becomes a manager vs players thing. Its always the manager that gets the boot.

Players are no doubt softer than the good ol' days, but generally they're still a pretty determined bunch. I seriously doubt that any player interested in joining for Man United, and who Jose was also interested in signing, would worry about being called out in the media for not trying. For the simple reason that they imagine it won't apply to them because they're better than that. The players who do worry about that kind of thing don't end up at the biggest clubs.

 

[CS@SG]

Mourinho is bang on about some of those mentally weak players. I look at players like Depay, Shaw etc and I see players who are more interested in their phones and fashion statements rather than Football.

And there is another pne who is more interested in his head colour

 

[LonelyFire]

Just as an aside, when did the myth that Ferguson never criticized players in public start? This type of behaviour isn't exclusive to Mourinho, Ferguson done it plenty of times in his career and nobody questioned it.

The reality is this an excuse for the Pro-Mourinho/Anti-Mourinho brigades to face off again. FWIW, if players cant accept criticism (public or not) from their manager and not respond accordingly, then they do not have the temperament to play at the highest level.

 

[CS@SG]

Players are no doubt softer than the good ol' days, but generally they're still a pretty determined bunch. I seriously doubt that any player interested in joining for Man United, and who Jose was also interested in signing, would worry about being called out in the media for not trying. For the simple reason that they imagine it won't apply to them because they're better than that. The players who do worry about that kind of thing don't end up at the biggest clubs.

How about Mikhi?

 

[PedroMendez]

Tbh, my biggest issue with all of this is not how hurt Shaw would be, Smalling would be or whoever. I couldnt care less if I tried. The simple thing is, these players are our assets. We've paid solid money for them and pay them a substantial wage to play for us. Now, its in our interest to get the absolute best out of them. If we think that a word in private will achieve this, that's what we should be doing. If we think benching them for a while achieves this, that's what we should be doing. If we think calling them out in an interview and inviting all sorts of nonsense will achieve this, that's what we should be doing. Imo, the 3rd is least likely to work and thus the worst way to go about it.

This is exactly how I feel about the Mkhi issue as well. We seem determined to shoot ourselves in the foot and create more problems which would be ok if we were cruising along in other aspects but we're not. We have enough problems to deal with to add more of our own.

Also, I find it incredible how people simply say "Mou can do what he wants and player X can feck off if he doesnt like it". Good luck replacing these guys with others who'll love to be called weaklings in the media. The worst thing is, if he loses the dressing room, not only will we lose top players in the window, Mourinho will inevitably be sacked too. Like it or not, no club can afford to replace the squad if it becomes a manager vs players thing. Its always the manager that gets the boot.

I agree 100% with this statement. Just to clarify. I think in the long run a good/pleasant work environment is crucial for the performance of the players. Just like it is in every job. I don’t want to see the caf-meltdown if we sell Micki, Shaw and Martial next summer to use “tough-guys” like Young, Jones and Lingard as starter.

Especially the comments about Shaw are getting ridiculous. Nothing suggests, that he is a trouble maker. He is a young lad, who suffered from terrible injuries. He is incredibly talented and it is the job of the manager to get the best out of him. That really shouldn’t be that hard. That said, someone who is unable to make good use of Filipe Luis – one of the best and most rounded LBs in the world – has probably not a good eye for fullbacks.

 

[Varun]

Just as an aside, when did the myth that Ferguson never criticized players in public start? This type of behaviour isn't exclusive to Mourinho, Ferguson done it plenty of times in his career and nobody questioned it.

The reality is this an excuse for the Pro-Mourinho/Anti-Mourinho brigades to face off again. FWIW, if players cant accept criticism (public or not) from their manager and not respond accordingly, then they do not have the temperament to play at the highest level.

Comparisons with SAF are quite pointless. He was untouchable in every sense of the word and no player would stand up against him because they'd be fecked off no questions asked. Mourinho doesnt have the same standing.

Players are no doubt softer than the good ol' days, but generally they're still a pretty determined bunch. I seriously doubt that any player interested in joining for Man United, and who Jose was also interested in signing, would worry about being called out in the media for not trying. For the simple reason that they imagine it won't apply to them because they're better than that. The players who do worry about that kind of thing don't end up at the biggest clubs.

I didn't mean players wouldnt want to join. I'm saying these mythical hard men wouldnt like it either if the same was done to them down the line and we'd have posters here again saying they should be fecked off and replaced.

 

[Badunk]

If the man thinks that this is the right thing to do, I fully support him. He knows best.

This could be a motivational technique for all we know.

 

[Manny]

The fact this thread has 900 posts (most of them calling our players wankers), after an important after a difficult week pretty much tells what a dreadful way this was to handle it.

There was a chance to put all the negativity away for a bit, with people forgetting the bad results/shit over the international week. But no, we just fecking invite more shit on ourselves for no reason at all.

Yeah, let's not kid ourselves. Based on current form, we get one good win then embarrass ourselves in the next game.

It would have been reported as bigger crisis if we lost and he then moaned. Albeit he would have had marginally more support from fans.

 

[Tincanalley]

I think the poll should have asked
(1) Is the manager right about some players (and their associates) being essentially too soft?
(2) Will Jose's public comments regarding the committment of certain identifiable players benefit MU?

Me, I think, maybe yes, he is right. I like Smalling, though, I have seen him give plenty of committment. Maybe he really is injured? Jose doesn't have a great record with trusting doctors. And Shaw, as we all know, has had a rough time. No excuses for Shaw's brother though. Disgraceful. What a prat. Damages Shaw's standing big time. Question 2 is the most important one though. I would have mixed feelings about the answer; a kind of definite maybe. I don't think Mou is doing all this for self-serving reasons, though, as some are saying. And I certainly hope that players respond in the right way. You can draw some encouragement that Luke Shaw seemed to respond well to similar criticism by him by SAF after he joined first. One other thing on this; I would not be over-the-top hard on the guys when you are talking about the Turkish away game. They were really kicked the shit out of, and the oppos played like their lives depended on it. That level of intensity should not be expected - not in that particular setting - in the course of a long season; footballers are human you know, and after all we did beat them four one or whatever over here. For me the big demand is can you turn it on? A successful manager has to choose, very wisely, the moments when to play like your lives depend on it. You can't do it week in, week out; of course you cant. You would just burn out, attract endless injuries, suspensions, etc. You need to be able to motivate that as a manager, when it is needed. Big games, turning points. SAF did have that ability, he was a finely tuned, cunning motivator/manipulator. He had bang on timing, he played the long game really well. Does Jose? Can he bring the team/(or any team, nowadays) with him? Not at all sure. Talvez.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

Just as an aside, when did the myth that Ferguson never criticized players in public start? This type of behaviour isn't exclusive to Mourinho, Ferguson done it plenty of times in his career and nobody questioned it.

The reality is this an excuse for the Pro-Mourinho/Anti-Mourinho brigades to face off again. FWIW, if players cant accept criticism (public or not) from their manager and not respond accordingly, then they do not have the temperament to play at the highest level.

Exactly. United is not the fecking maffia with some kind of omerta, and the last time I checked we're not in China either, where half of the culture seems to revolve about saving 'face' to the outside world. If you take the effort to watch back the video to see what he actually said, there's not much wrong with what he said or the manner in which he said it.

Remember this?



Now giving some critisicm in a post-match interview like Mourinho did is one thing, publicly humilating a player in front of 80000 people with millions watching live on TV on top of thatis another.

The only problem with Jose is the 'Boy who cried Wolf'-scenario, or however that fairy tale is called in English. You saw it in his interviews last year, he had whined so much about everything that no one took him seriously anymore. It's the same with these type of games, I think his comments were spot on, but obviously these type of motivational tricks can't be used as a magic solution.[/MEDIA]

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

FWIW I also think he's a bit of a cnut but that's fine, as he's our cnut. Fergie was a bit of a cnut too and that never bothered me. We might end up viewing all of this with the same sort of indulgent affection we had for Fergie and his occasional cnutishness, so long as Mourinho gets us back up on our perch. If not, well, this will all get very old very fast.

Or to put it another way, would anyone give a shit about him calling out players like this if we were top of the table and cruising towards a title? I know I wouldn't.

I'm glad someone pointed this out because that's my only concern about the whole situation. Maybe he thought that he would hit the ground running but since that didn't happen (in fact we don't even have a settled starting lineup which is one of his characteristics as manager) he's trying to stir things up in order to provoke reactions and see which players he can really trust to build his siege mentality. But it's always "safer" to do these things when you're in total control of the situation and your authority in the dressing room is nearly unquestionable. Otherwise all kinds of hell may break loose and right now we don't look convincing. Not to win the title but even to make top four.

It's the reason why Klopp didn't receive the same bad treatment as Jose for hanging Sturridge out to dry a few weeks ago. Liverpool have gone through some pretty tough fixtures and they're currently topping the league and they have some fantastic performances to show for. He also got them very close to winning two cup titles last season. That's when the fans are behind you all the way and that's the best time for radical changes... or comments. If Klopp wins them the title after a quarter of a century, he may as well go on and change their whole squad each summer, so to speak, and no one would complain.

My guess is that, for the first time since Ferguson, in this on going power struggle between managers and players the balance tips in favor of the manager. Mourinho is one of the top three managers in the world, he's neither inexperienced nor an old feck who wants to teach continental football. He has every right to set his standards and he has every right to expect from everyone to try and meet them. In this sense i agree with those saying that 1000+ comments for the manager criticizing a couple of unbelievably bad performances, even in public, are agenda driven more than anything else. To me it's pretty obvious that the players had their way in the last three seasons with both Moyes and LvG being anathematized and held fully responsible for our struggles.

Now, i don't believe that he will hold any grudges, especially if the players work hard and give him what he wants. I may be proven wrong but that's how i see it and that's why i'm on his side atm. But we're treading a thin line here not because of Mourinho but because we're still trying to recreate an authoritarian managerial figure in the image of Ferguson. The problem here is that Ferguson had actually earned his "empirical" privileges within the club. And i'm not okay with giving any manager absolute control over the club since he's proven he is worthy of it. Not as a top professional (at United it can't be otherwise, normally) but for his actual work at the club. Had Mourinho not been sacked at Chelsea but gone for a big clear out, most of Chelsea fans would have stood by him. Despite being a cnut, he has offered them lots of good moments and he's one of the two men, the other one is Roman, who shaped the club's identity in modern times. The same applies for his work at Porto and Inter, he's associated with Porto's finest period in the club's history and with Inter's second most successful period. As a result he has many friends at those clubs. It wasn't the same in Madrid and his antics ended with his image tarnished despite setting the team back on track and playing good football. United are closer to Real Madrid, bigger than Porto and not as desperate as Inter yet.

So right now he can choose to go down that route, i have no problem with that. But for the good of everyone at United the results on the pitch should start matching the manager's cnutishness sooner than later.

 

[noodlehair]

You could be right if shaw actually did it though like telling his brother to post shits.

If you were playing for United would you be dumb enough to have your family members posting shit about your tem mates on twitter? It's a very easy situation to avoid. If it does happen it's on Shaw to sort out. He'll just have to have words with his brother and tell him not to do it again. I suspect your stance would be somewhat different if one of Wayne Rooney's family members went on twitter to slag off the manager and one of his team mates. It just shouldn't happen.

Shaw also has form for fitness issues and generally just being a feckwit...even dumb things like posting a topless selfie of yourself in the mirror to prove that you're "fit"...as if not having a beer belly automatically makes you fit enough to be a professional athlete, in spite of the managers of both your club and country telling you you're not fit.

All Shaw is being asked to do really is what he should be doing anyway. Getting on with it and not causing stupid problems for himself.

Nothing worse than someone using the phrase "man up" in this context. Essentially Shaw has to ignore whatever his body is telling him and not bother with it. In spite of the fact he's just come back from a terrible injury, he needs to fight through his current condition because it shows that he's a "man". Said it in the Shaw thread as well but I may as well repeat it here: a man is a male who puts his own judgement ahead of what others might think of him. I don't care about the hard on some have over "toughness" and how high they get when players play with an injury. It's asinine.

Really, there's NOTHING worse? Nothing at all?

What injury is this that Shaw currently has or has "just" come back from which you are referring to? Is it the broken ankle that he doesn't have anymore and hasn't had at any point this season?

Getting over a serious injury has a mental barrier, and it takes most people a while to come to terms with that. I don't think anyone is saying that isn't the case...but the way to get over it isn't by hiding from it.

If you left footballers to make their own judgements on things rather than listening to managers, medical staff, etc. what do you seriously think would happen?

Are you making him responsible for what his brother says on twitter? Until it's proven that he's the one behind those comments himself that is a new low. Fecking hell, just imagine being held responsible for all the shit your stupid family members writes on twitter...

None of my family would be stupid enough to post nonsense like that on twitter. If they did, I would certainly feel embarrassed by and responsible for it. His brother certainly wouldn't be whining if Shaw himself was happy not to be playing...and yet now it comes out that he asked not to play in a game. I can see why Mourinho might be slightly miffed/unimpressed, because it is unimpressive/baffling behaviour.

No one's arguing against him trying to weed the nonsense out. The entire discussion is about the need to do this publicly.

Well yeah but why is it a surprise. Mourinho has always done this. He does it when things are going well. He does it when they aren't. He used to dedicate an entire section of every interview to slagging off Joe Cole...then also had Joe Cole playing like one of the best players in the league. He also came out and basically claimed all the players he'd signed for Chelsea one year were shite...while he was still managing them.

This is Mourinho. It's not some new aspect of his character. It's always been there. Since day 1.