Liverpool 2016/17 - Performance and chat thread.

[SwansonsTache]

No doubt, we've got weaknesses like everyone does. I wonder what approach Mourinho will take in the game at Anfield. He's got it in his locker to get a result in a game like that and he knows how we'll play so it'll be about how he tries to counter it.

I reckon he will go 4-3-3.

Herrera, Pogba and Fellaini in midfield. Herrera to counter your energy and Fellaini plus Pogba for aerial bombardment together with Zlatan upfront. Will be hoofball I think. Also Rash and another pacey option as wide forwards to provide pace on the counter when you overcomit in attack, something you often do.

I reckon this match will get decided much by the first 30 minutes or so, if you get paid for your storming then and we go one down we don't have the mentality to turn it around at anfield, if we get the first and get in the stride it will be different. Will very much be a game of two halves with the game taking on a whole different dimension in the second half as opposed to the first due to you guys tiring around 60'. Trick for us is to not be beat by then.

 

[Kraftwerker]

No doubt, we've got weaknesses like everyone does. I wonder what approach Mourinho will take in the game at Anfield. He's got it in his locker to get a result in a game like that and he knows how we'll play so it'll be about how he tries to counter it.

I think he'll try to lure you into the high press, but try to disorganise it and hit on fast counters. Will require passers at the back for us (Blind), and pace in attack (Rashford and Martial).

 

[shaggy]

No doubt, we've got weaknesses like everyone does. I wonder what approach Mourinho will take in the game at Anfield. He's got it in his locker to get a result in a game like that and he knows how we'll play so it'll be about how he tries to counter it.

Hopefully just plays a similar side to the one against Leicester. Don't see a point us trying to play 'defensive', we saw what happened against City, we just don't have the personnel for it. Could be a really entertaining game.

 

[Finn MacCool]

No doubt, we've got weaknesses like everyone does. I wonder what approach Mourinho will take in the game at Anfield. He's got it in his locker to get a result in a game like that and he knows how we'll play so it'll be about how he tries to counter it.

Mourinho has a good record against us (especially in the league) - but a poor one against Klopp. Can't really judge too much by their only prem meeting last season at Stamford bridge - Mourinho was already in deep trouble, Klopp was just starting with us.

Utd will almost certainly play lots of long balls - expect Matip and Fellaini battling it out a lot. As its a night game should be an unreal atmosphere - similar to last years EL tie.

 

[Kraftwerker]

Mourinho has a good record against us (especially in the league) - but a poor one against Klopp. Can't really judge too much by their only prem meeting last season at Stamford bridge - Mourinho was already in deep trouble, Klopp was just starting with us.

Utd will almost certainly play lots of long balls - expect Matip and Fellaini battling it out a lot. As its a night game should be an unreal atmosphere - similar to last years EL tie.

There's a good chance Fellaini won't even play.

Ibra and Pogba could still cause enough carnage though, especially at set pieces.

 

[B20]

I expect mourinho to do his usual. Park the bus, see out the game.

 

[Finn MacCool]

There's a good chance Fellaini won't even play.

Ibra and Pogba could still cause enough carnage though, especially at set pieces.

Possibly you do benefit from Herrera's energy - in a way I would rather he played. We have struggled with Fellaini before.

 

[Finn MacCool]

I expect mourinho to do his usual. Park the bus, see out the game.

yep - can't see it being an open game, will play into our hands.

 

[Dumbstar]

There's a good chance Fellaini won't even play.

Ibra and Pogba could still cause enough carnage though, especially at set pieces.

You don't need Fellaini to cause carnage against us at set pieces, fecking Mata would be enough for that.

Ibra, Pogba and Rashford together would be dangerous for our defence. Conversely I don't rate any of them to have a high intensity game so it would signal ceding the possession stats to us up front.

 

[Minimalist]

Think it's bit early to be shitting our knicks over Liverpool. Klopp is an impressive manager though and nobody should doubt that - he's getting a lot out of that squad currently.

 

[Kraftwerker]

Mourinho has 8 wins in 11 games vs. Liverpool in the league.

He doesn't have a better record against any other side.

That's pretty phenomenal. Liverpool are to him what Aston Villa used to be for us in the league.

 

[arthurka]

Klopp has done brilliantly with Liverpool.. Mou is going to struggle with Klopps high intensity football.. Just hope we will get a great game..

 

[montpelier]

Amazing either LFC or United ever find any young talent really. They are the 2 most successful UK clubs ever, have huge scouting networks & may or may not offer attractive deals to the parents of the top schoolboy players in their area.

Which ones turn out to be the very best is reputedly quite hard to tell. I like Pogba being factually designated as home grown though, that's a relief is that, .

 

[redman5]

Amazing either LFC or United ever find any young talent really. They are the 2 most successful UK clubs ever, have huge scouting networks & may or may not offer attractive deals to the parents of the top schoolboy players in their area.

Which ones turn out to be the very best is reputedly quite hard to tell. I like Pogba being factually designated as home grown though, that's a relief is that, .

It's the strong Mancunian accent that gives him away. That & the fact that Greater Manchester now seems to stretch across the English channel.

There's certainly been a sharp decline in the amount of talented local youngsters coming through the ranks at both our clubs. I suspect Rashford has been deprived of x boxes & other games consoles. I imagine he's had to play his football the old fashioned way.

 

[bleedred]

That's one...

for a start

 

[criticalanalysis]

You don't need Fellaini to cause carnage against us at set pieces, fecking Mata would be enough for that.

Ibra, Pogba and Rashford together would be dangerous for our defence. Conversely I don't rate any of them to have a high intensity game so it would signal ceding the possession stats to us up front.

I'm not sure about tbh. Ibra sure because of his age but he's certainly up for a fight and won't get bullied on or off the ball. He won't be pressing and running around iike a mad man but he will definitely contribute positionally. His pride and professionalism won't allow him to just mop about and sit between the centre backs.

Pogba and Rashford though, although the sample size is small, imo they are definitely up for a kick and rush/high intensity game. I would say Rashford, to his detriment and probably one his best attributes, is his willingness to go full pelt every time (chasing, pressing, running for and off the ball).

Pobga won't get bullied by the press or be afraid to put himself about too I reckon. Those 3 are not lazy in terms of work rate by any stretch of the imagination. How it pans out with tactics etc though is an altogether different matter of course.

 

[B20]

Curtis Davies talked about what it was like to play against Liverpool. Interesting contrast of how it was different against Arsenal, even though they went down to 10 against both.

“When you play against a Liverpool team that is vibrant, exciting and enjoying itself it is tough,” said the centre-half. “They are a side which literally plays with (Jordan) Henderson and the two centre-halves at the back and the rest can go where-ever they want.

“That is not ill-discipline, it’s organised. The inter-changing, the good football, the passing - they are a very, very tough team to deal with when they are on their game.

“It is hard to lay a glove on anyone, put it that way. When there is so much inter-changing you cannot put your mark on one person.

“It is tough to try and get in and try and make a tackle which makes them think again because literally one second Mane will be in that hole, then Lallana and then Coutinho.

“With the full backs playing like wingers it becomes very difficult because you end up with backs against the wall.”

“Last week against Arsenal, we had 10 men but it was a different performance,” he said. “We were good. We kept hold of the ball but Liverpool, with their pressing game, they weren’t going to be satisfied with 3-0.

“They weren’t satisfied with 4-0 or scoring five. They wanted six, seven, eight and that is the difference. Arsenal were like, ‘We will sit, we will let them have the ball and then we will have it for another five minutes’.

“But Liverpool didn’t give you a chance to breathe to be honest.

“Arsenal are a very good passing team, but a lot of their stuff is on front of you. Nice little passes.

“Liverpool have that mix of nice little passes and then people who will run and run at you and beat you as well. Like Mane. Like Coutinho.

“They will open the game up just on their own by making runs and beating people. It is very difficult to take.

“When we went down to 10 men then, if I am being honest, as a Liverpool I would be thinking, ‘We can give them a hiding. Let’s be ruthless. And they were ruthless.”​

 

[Treble]

Think Liverpool are flying now and won't have much problems vs Swansea. City put in their worst performance so far vs them and still won. And the main reason why City struggled was that they were a bit sluggish, nothing like the sharp team they were in previous games, maybe they underestimated Swansea and thought about the next games. Can't see Liverpool being sluggish as there are question marks about their performances vs small teams. Klopp is building a very good side, no doubt about that.

 

[PickledRed]

He has perhaps not seen Dortmund, with far better players than Liverpool, getting undone with that tactic. It's almost like Burnley never happened. Teams which sit back and are half decent defensively will actually show them up quite a lot like Dortmund faced. When you don't have space to exploit behind the defense, I expect them to flounder.

Chelsea sat deep and got the run around. Hull sat deep and were dragged all over the field resulting in conceding early and losing any control of the game. Even with 11 men Hull were lost out there with the nature of Liverpool's approach.

It's become an odd narrative - suggesting Klopp can't beat teams with a low block approach isn't backed up by evidence. Burnley is a small sample to use at this point.

After 8 games last season Liverpool had scored 6 goals. It's now 24 after Saturday. Strewth...

 

[devips]

That LVG first season match where we clobbered Liverpool should be our model for the coming encounter. That Liverpool was also a high pressing, high possession side. But LVG out-pressed and out-possessioned them thoroughly, didn't allow them the opportunity to re-organise, at least in the first half. And the match was decided in that half. Defensive approach won't get us anywhere.

 

[Treble]

That LVG first season match where we clobbered Liverpool should be our model for the coming encounter. That Liverpool was also a high pressing, high possession side. But LVG out-pressed and out-possessioned them thoroughly, didn't allow them the opportunity to re-organise, at least in the first half. And the match was decided in that half. Defensive approach won't get us anywhere.

Unfortunately, they were nothing like this side intensity wise. The game's going to be very difficult, it will be hard to match the intentsity of their play, at least in the first half anyway. The strategy should be to survive that first half when they will run and press like mad.

 

[NK86]

Chelsea sat deep and got the run around. Hull sat deep and were dragged all over the field resulting in conceding early and losing any control of the game. Even with 11 men Hull were lost out there with the nature of Liverpool's approach.

It's become an odd narrative - suggesting Klopp can't beat teams with a low block approach isn't backed up by evidence. Burnley is a small sample to use at this point.

After 8 games last season Liverpool had scored 6 goals. It's now 24 after Saturday. Strewth...

I am not saying you won't beat any team sitting back but Dortmund were found out exactly that way. And it took a wonder goal from Henderson for you to win 2-1. Chelsea were all over you in the last 20-25 mins. As for the evidence, Dortmund's last season is ample evidence that the approach works very well against a side wanting to press you and play on the counter.

 

[johnny boy]

I am not saying you won't beat any team sitting back but Dortmund were found out exactly that way. And it took a wonder goal from Henderson for you to win 2-1. Chelsea were all over you in the last 20-25 mins. As for the evidence, Dortmund's last season is ample evidence that the approach works very well against a side wanting to press you and play on the counter.

I wouldn't say they were all over us, around the 78 > 82 minutes (approx) it took a Cahill block and a fine Courtois save to keep it at 1-2.
No doubt Chelsea grew stronger in the second half especially after Costa's goal but it was certainly a deserved victory and given their impressive home record it's logical for them to have some period of possession where they are on the attack.

Not sure what you mean by the Henderson comment - we scored twice irrespective of the nature of the goal, just because it was a wonder goal, what's the difference?
If United had beaten Leicester just 2-1 and the winner was a 30 yard cracker we would be a bit daft claiming it took a wonder goal to beat them! It would be more a case of a fine goal sealing the win.
Besides we were 2-0 up it wasn't like it was a late winner.

 

[PickledRed]

I am not saying you won't beat any team sitting back but Dortmund were found out exactly that way. And it took a wonder goal from Henderson for you to win 2-1. Chelsea were all over you in the last 20-25 mins.

Incorrect. Chelsea had two good chances in the second half - a goal and then a shot on the turn by Costa. Aside from a mild flurry of pressure from 60-70 minutes Chelsea were spent and offered little. In fact Liverpool went the closest to adding another goal and finished comfortably.

As for the evidence, Dortmund's last season is ample evidence that the approach works very well against a side wanting to press you and play on the counter.

So in 7 seasons at Dortmund it's best to use the 1 season that wasn't as successful. Can I use his 6 more successful seasons as my sample?

 

[Sphaero]

I am not saying you won't beat any team sitting back but Dortmund were found out exactly that way. And it took a wonder goal from Henderson for you to win 2-1. Chelsea were all over you in the last 20-25 mins. As for the evidence, Dortmund's last season is ample evidence that the approach works very well against a side wanting to press you and play on the counter.

Our last season was first and foremost an example of a coach not reaching his team anymore and having his methods worn out. That was after seven seasons, four of them overperforming and two performing to the expected standart. That is an eternity in modern football and a longer time span than most top managers ever coached a single team. The thing is that our problems were not only systematical but also simply down to execution. We did not play our best style to the usual standart anymore.

The "Klopp was tactically found out after six (!) seasons" argument is nothing more than a myth and has been proven wrong several times on here.

 

[Treble]

I am not saying you won't beat any team sitting back but Dortmund were found out exactly that way. And it took a wonder goal from Henderson for you to win 2-1. Chelsea were all over you in the last 20-25 mins. As for the evidence, Dortmund's last season is ample evidence that the approach works very well against a side wanting to press you and play on the counter.

If fans on football forums know how it is effective to play vs Klopp, so should also Wenger, Poch and Conte. But their tactics didn't quite work out. I think that Swansea won't achieve much in the next game too. And it is not because their manager knows less about Klopp than football fans on the Cafe.

IMO, the solution vs Klopp is not to sit back but to match the movement and the fluidity of his sides: easier said that done. Just sitting back and trying to counter them will help a team as much as it helped United vs Cty. The drawback to his tactics is a possible fatigue later in the season and more injuries to the players. But they don't have Europe this season, so we must count them as a genuine threat, and not dismiss them just because Klopp had 1 bad season. If anything, Mou had a very bad season even more recently.

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

In either of our home games thus far, Leicester and Hull have sat back. Both have been demolished 4-1 and 5-1 respectively.

I am not saying you won't beat any team sitting back but Dortmund were found out exactly that way. And it took a wonder goal from Henderson for you to win 2-1. Chelsea were all over you in the last 20-25 mins. As for the evidence, Dortmund's last season is ample evidence that the approach works very well against a side wanting to press you and play on the counter.

Origi very nearly made it 3-1 actually.

 

[Kasper]

I am not saying you won't beat any team sitting back but Dortmund were found out exactly that way. And it took a wonder goal from Henderson for you to win 2-1. Chelsea were all over you in the last 20-25 mins. As for the evidence, Dortmund's last season is ample evidence that the approach works very well against a side wanting to press you and play on the counter.

Sorry but that's incredible revisionism, Chelsea looked threatening for 5 minutes after they scored their goal (which came out of nowhere) but from then on Liverpool took back control and actually should've scored a third. I also don't buy into this 'Klopp has been found out by teams sitting deep' narrative as that didn't seem to bother Dortmund in the 2 years when they were cruising the league.
He certainly has difficulty forming a defence tho, there's no doubt about that.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

The thing that's most impressive about Klopp so far is how he has the likes of Lallana playing as if they're actually somewhat decent footballers. If you can improve those who drastically under perform and get expected performances from your bigger players, you always have a chance of winning things. I think the title is beyond them (thankfully), but looking very good for top four and a decent cup run. The top four race this year is actually way too close to call, and not because it's still September (obviously), but because I sense that Liverpool, Arsenal and ourselves are still improving with each game. Easily the most competitive -- in terms of big clubs actually performing as you'd expect them to -- league since about '09.

 

[Harry190]

They're playing crazy football. Again, just like City, I don't understand how it's sustainable. It is very demanding on the body. They're everywhere. Hate to say it, but they're better than us. And they're doing it with less.

 

[fcbforever]

They're playing crazy football. Again, just like City, I don't understand how it's sustainable. It is very demanding on the body. They're everywhere. Hate to say it, but they're better than us. And they're doing it with less.

It's not really a problem. Dortmund have done this for years.
Sorry to say this, but you are experiencing just how backwards the coaching in the Premier League has been.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

They're playing crazy football. Again, just like City, I don't understand how it's sustainable. It is very demanding on the body. They're everywhere. Hate to say it, but they're better than us. And they're doing it with less.

Yeah, I agree. The common denominator, as you point out, is a very intensive pressing game. Makes me wonder how each side will cope after Christmas.

 

[NK86]

In either of our home games thus far, Leicester and Hull have sat back. Both have been demolished 4-1 and 5-1 respectively.



Origi very nearly made it 3-1 actually.

We demolished Leicester 4-1 without breaking a sweat. Says a lot about their defense this season tbh. I am again not saying you won't win matches with that style but that style is based on intense pressing and counter attacking with pace. A team with a good defense can actually counter balance that pretty well if they are well organized. When you cut out the space behind the defense, pace won't be nearly as effective as it is. We will have to wait and see if Klopp has actually turned Liverpool around.

 

[GlastonSpur]

It's not really a problem. Dortmund have done this for years.
Sorry to say this, but you are experiencing just how backwards the coaching in the Premier League has been.

I agree.

Spurs also play a high intensity pressing game and some tried to blame this for our fall-off towards the end of last season. But the real reason was not to do with being knackered. Instead it was purely psychological - both during and after the match away to Chelsea.

Spurs were 2 - 0 up in that match and playing Chelsea off the park. But then the players got sucked in by the antics of the Chelsea players - Costa especially - into engaging in a tit-for-tat, foul-ridden, dirty game, and so it became not about football anymore. Chelsea knew it was the only way they would get back into the game and their tactic worked. We lost our shape, our discipline and mental strength, conceded two goals and failed to get the win we needed to really stay in the title race.

And after that, with any chance of the title realistically gone, Spurs just fell apart in the remaining games, losing at home to S'hampton and totally collapsing in the final game away to Newcastle.

Our energetic playing style had nothing to do with it.

 

[11101]

It's not really a problem. Dortmund have done this for years.
Sorry to say this, but you are experiencing just how backwards the coaching in the Premier League has been.

Dortmund have 6 weeks off every winter. No-one has yet made a season long success of a pressing game in England.

 

[MartialsBeard]

No club has ever sustained that level of pressing over a season, City and Liverpool alike, they will have to manage their expectations especially when they come up against teams that also do the same.

It will be interesting to see who drops first because as with other teams that play this way and drop off, the come down can be quite spectacular.

 

[SwansonsTache]

But then the players got sucked in by the antics of the Chelsea players - Costa especially - into engaging in a tit-for-tat, foul-ridden, dirty game, and so it became not about football anymore.

Spurs were far worse than Chelsea in that match behaviour wise. You were about the only team last season that managed to let Chelsea and Costa leave the pitch looking like the lesser cnuts.

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

We demolished Leicester 4-1 without breaking a sweat. Says a lot about their defense this season tbh. I am again not saying you won't win matches with that style but that style is based on intense pressing and counter attacking with pace. A team with a good defense can actually counter balance that pretty well if they are well organized. When you cut out the space behind the defense, pace won't be nearly as effective as it is. We will have to wait and see if Klopp has actually turned Liverpool around.

We had 72% possession against Hull on the weekend - there was no counter attacking.

 

[johnny boy]

Sorry but that's incredible revisionism, Chelsea looked threatening for 5 minutes after they scored their goal (which came out of nowhere) but from then on Liverpool took back control and actually should've scored a third. I also don't buy into this 'Klopp has been found out by teams sitting deep' narrative as that didn't seem to bother Dortmund in the 2 years when they were cruising the league.
He certainly has difficulty forming a defence tho, there's no doubt about that.

That's the way I saw it too - crazy to say we were hanging on.

The thing that's most impressive about Klopp so far is how he has the likes of Lallana playing as if they're actually somewhat decent footballers.

Maybe that's because he is actually a good player?

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Maybe that's because he is actually a good player?

That's my point. Klopp has him playing to his actual level.