I think Rodgers is a real world class manager, did wonders at Swansea and is now doing the same at Anfield. Maybe manager is the wrong word; he's a world class coach/tactician.
Liverpool
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Sturridge.. he's a top player, not outstanding IMO. I think Coutinho is the one that actually makes this Liverpool tick, when he doesn't play Liverpool are not quite the same side. He'll get better & better if he stays fit. But he's the natural succesor to Inesta..
Lots of fortune tellers on here:
'When Suarez and Coutinho leave for Spain...'
'You will struggle in Europe with that squad'
'United will definitely be back challenging next year'
I think it's funny when people state what they want to happen as fact as though that makes it more likely.
'When Suarez and Coutinho leave for Spain...'
'You will struggle in Europe with that squad'
'United will definitely be back challenging next year'
I think it's funny when people state what they want to happen as fact as though that makes it more likely.
I don't think it's far fetched to assume that both Suarez & Coutinho will leave within a few seasons, most likely to Spain considering their back grounds and what the Spannish league means in their home countries. Latino no?
I'm not saying that won't happen, I'm saying I think it's funny when people state it as fact as if they know for certain its going to happen.
Welcome to the Liverpool thread
One lads predicting a Fergusonesque rise to dominance then we've another claiming Brendy a World class manager despite never setting foot in Europes highest tier to date.
Suarez won't leave is another one from the mystic ball, not to mention league titles.
It's all good stuff though, I predicted United to finish 3rd about a month ago, must take that crystal ball back next time I go to Liverpool ONE.
Welcome to the Liverpool thread
One lads predicting a Fergusonesque rise to dominance then we've another claiming Brendy a World class manager despite never setting foot in Europes highest tier to date.
Suarez won't leave is another one from the mystic ball, not to mention league titles.
It's all good stuff though, I predicted United to finish 3rd about a month ago, must take that crystal ball back next time I go to Liverpool ONE.
It's not hard to predict you were going to reply with another ridiculous comment.
Arsenal finished higher than 7th once in the 60's, finishing 4th once. I'm not sure how Arsenal are included in that.
We're always predicting something, it's in a fans nature, it's not ever perceived as factual, or rather shouldn't be.
Bet you've predicted Coutinho to be a top player when in actual fact he might turn out shite, or fall foul to injury, we all predict based on bias, perception and probability.
Crystal balls are two a penny on football forums.
I agree with this.
See now I never would have predicted Barney agreeing with me, ever !! 
I predicted, some years ago, that we'd sell Ronaldo as 'he wasn't living up to his potential'.
Nostrodamus I am not.
Nostrodamus I am not.
Rodgers has done a great job. Whenever Theo Walcott was discussed on this forum, people would constantly say that he would never be top class and suggest that Arsenal needed to upgrade on him. I made the point, that also applies to Liverpool now, that you don't need top class players at every position to win things. Unless you are one of the super rich clubs, you can't spend 25 million at every position. You need to buy a bunch of players in the 6-12 million range and hope that half of them work out. The way to overcome resource disadvantages is to have superior scouting and coaching. If they can find players like Sturridge and Coutinho for the prices they have, they will do just fine.
This is the squad I'd have next season if I were in charge (it's probably unrealistic, but who cares, it's enjoyable):
GK: Mignolet, New Keeper, Jones
FB: New RB, Flanagan, New LB, Enrique
CB: Sakho, Agger, Skrtel, Wisdom, Toure, Ilori
CM: Henderson, Gerrard, Lucas, Allen, New Signing, Rossiter
CAM: Coutinho, Suso, Alberto, Texiera
Front 3: Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling, Borini, Ibe, New Striker, New Winger
It's a 30 man squad, but we'll probably need it and a few are youth players that could go out on loan. Probably loan Ilori, Ibe and maybe give Alberto a loan to Almeria similar to Suso.
I'd sell Aspas, Johnson, Assaidi, Coates and Reina.
Comical considering the likes of Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Lampard, Vieira, Fabregas, perhaps a few others. Keane and Scholes are easily the two best midfielders in Premiership history.
Don't want to open this debate up, but Scholes was not better than Gerrard. Vieira and Keane are the only ones who were better than him at their respective peaks.
I think Jones might leave but it's hard to bring a new keeper in when you just know they aren't going to get any games unless Mignolet is injured,
would only get a new one if Brad leaves. I also think Danny Ward could make it as a good back up.
I wouldn't sell Johnson, him and Flanagan with Kelly also are enough for right back, left back I agree though I thought Cissoko was our best
defender on wednesday. You could also argue McLaughlin and Smith could be back ups too, assuming they are not loaned out.
I can maybe see Wisdom or Ilori maybe having another loan season, 6 centre backs plus Kelly is too many.
Definitely need a centre midfielder, in the Toure mould.
The 4 CAMs on paper looks exciting, but if we do buy another midfielder it's hard to see 2 of them getting much game time, even with hopefully
European football, I can see one at least being loaned out. Brannagan is also one to watch and wouldn't be surprised if he was the next kid to come through.
Assuming Suarez stays we might be ok again assuming Borini returns. I would be very surprised if we don't get a wide left player in.
Assaidi could be a decent option on the bench.
Priorities for me then left back, centre mid, and left wing - 3 quality signings, well in theory anyway.
To be honest with the young players we have coming through, a few improvements in certain areas will give us a very good squad.
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I think this "massive rebuild" is being overplayed. Just because Moyes is doing horrendously we suddenly need 7-8 players.
Who is likely to leave in the Summer? Probably Rio, Vidic and Evra. After this we might see a couple of Nani, Kagawa, Young and Hernandez leaving. All 7 of these player's shouldn't (and mostly aren't) playing when everyone is fit regardless. We are replacing backup and squad players. The reality is we will still need what we needed last Summer: a left back and 2 quality central midfielders. If we manage to find a quality attacking player it will merely be a bonus, as we will go into next season with at least 7 of Mata, RVP, Rooney, Januzaj, Nani, Hernandez, Kagawa, Welbeck, Valencia and Young.
People thinking it is going to be difficult without Champions League Football or with Moyes as manager have obviously been in some sort of coma this last decade. The main thing that matters when signing players is how much money you are going to pay them. This is why Spurs were scraping around for second rate players when they sold Bale: they had lots of cash, but no wage structure to back it up. That is why the likes of Mata, Ozil, Hazard, RVP, Aguero, Nasri etc aren't moving to clubs like Spurs/Everton and even Liverpool. Even if you wanted to talk about trophies, United will still go into next season as 3rd favourites to win any domestic trophy. So unless City and Chelsea are going to be paying every great player £200k a week or more then many a quality player will be available.
If it's Arsenal with Wenger in the Champions League and 150k a week vs Moyes in the Europa League and £200k a week, 9 out of 10 player's will choose the latter (fortunately for us).
The only question mark will be again if Moyes can get one of the best two or three teams in the League into the top four. This is the only "grey" area, but he certainly can't do worse than he has this season.
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You're right not to want to open up a debate anyway. I'd like my bullshit statements to be taken as fact and not challenged either.
Not comical at all for me is the best in Pl history but i'm biased. Is not like i mentioned Djemba Djemba, if you say Scholes is the best i wouldn't describe it as 'comical' because his a top player in his own right. A bit of perspective is needed just because we are rival doesn't mean we shouldn't appreciate each others players.
As for your last statement it just screams bias doesn't it, Keane and Scholes easily better than Gerrard Viera, Fabregas?
So two of your CBs are leaving (both first XI starters in the recent past), but you don't also need to sign a new CB? And you're going to stick with Buttner as LB cover? Are both Rooney and RvP nailed on to stick around for the Europa League? Your minimalist version of the required rebuild is open to question to say the least.
As for the rest, your superior "United quality" attitude is stuck in the past. You dismiss the likes of Paulinho (for example) as "second rate", never mind that he starts for Brazil and would walk into your central midfield. But Mata is lauded, despite the fact that he wasn't wanted by Chelsea and was let go to a team that Mourinho no longer sees as a threat ... and also despite the fact that he's a luxury signing that you didn't especially need (Rooney already plays in his preferred position) and was IMO essentially brought into to appease the fans by showing that the club was "doing something" and spending big.
For all your rhetoric about Spurs "scraping around" to sign players, RvP is the only non-luxury player that United have signed recently who is better than their Spurs equivalent. One player. That's it.
de Gea is not better than Lloris
Neither Smalling nor Jones are better than Vertonghen ... and they are probably not better than even Chiriches.
Central midfield is not even worth making comparisons.
Kagawa is not better than Eriksen
Zaha is not better than Lamela
... and so on.
So the much-vaunted "massive attraction" of Man. Utd and its billy big bucks mega-wages doesn't seem to have done much for you for a good while now. And yet you blithely assume it's all going to get so much better next summer, with Europa League football on offer. Well, good luck with that.
PS. It's not just Man. City and Chelsea you'll be competing with for signings. It's also PSG, R.Madrid, Barca. B. Munich etc
Yep I meant Sturridge. You may not think he will have the longevity of an "outstanding player" but he is certainly an outstanding player right now. Feel free to downgrade him if and when he slacks off but at present there should be no doubt whatsoever. Only 1 game away from equalling old horsehead's record too I think for scoring in consecutive games.
I love him citing Uniteds massive rebuild and the lure of Europa league as reasons for Uniteds future failing, all the while comparing his massively rebuilt Europa league side as better player for player than Uniteds current champions league one.
All we need now is for this to be in a Liverpool thread ..........
Keane and Scholes body of work speaks for themselves, with Lampard and Vieira right there in the mix. Gerrard has been a fantastic player but he's not the best midfielder the league has ever seen.
Coutinho surpassing Gerrard would still put him a ways off the aforementioned players. Jumping the gun with such a ridiculous assertion. We've seen it before with Liverpool fans claiming Hyypia better than Stam, Finnan as the best RB in the league, Agger as good as Rio, and on and on.
Welbeck as good as Sturridge, Rvp as good as Suarez, Kagawa better than Coutinho, Cleverley better than Henderson and on and on. We've seen it before with United fans. Gerrard was better than Scholes, with Lampard a distance behind both.
It's easy to make an argument when you set all your own rules. What is a "non-luxury" signing and why are your comparisons ignorant of Mata, Soldado, Capoue, Sigurdsson, Chadli and Dembele?
I think it might be because you are a tit.
Nice leap there, Barney Fife. Flavors of the month versus all-timers (RVP and Suarez the only legit all-timer debate). Haven't heard of the Kagawa/Coutinho debate, which prior to 2013 would have leaned towards Kagawa considering his body of work with Dortmund. Coutinho's form in 2013 compared to Kagawa's benchwarming should end that for now. Cleverley/Henderson, neither are quality, and simply overrated Englishmen. Until this season, Henderson had been garbage and suddenly he's top class (not really). Sturridge never performed until he got his run of games. Revisionist history here. Many of those comparisons started months/years ago prior to recent/present form.
Liverpool fans have for years claimed to have this world class squad, the best players in their position in the league, and constantly failed to win the league. A side full of the best players in the league should have won at least one league title. Oh that's right, they did in the form of Arsenal, Chelsea, City, and United.
Suarez has become a better player than van Persie this season. Sturridge has passed Welbeck by a mile. Coutinho is in good form, but the jury is still out for me. Could be a top player though. Henderson has had a revival this season. Even a poor Cleverley was better than him up to now, but again, Henderson has progressed this season where Cleverley has regressed. Just because those statements may not be true anymore because some of your players have improved doesn't mean they were not true at the time.
Welbeck was as good as Sturridge, if not better. He was unfortunate to not get as much time up front as he would have liked. Sturridge has had a fantastic Season to pass him out though. RVP was consistently and considerably better than Suarez, until about this time last year when Suarez began to find his world class form. Henderson was Shite, Cleverley was alright. Now Henderson is alright and Cleverley is shite. They are pointless examples as they don't illustrate the point you're making, they just show how much some of your players have improved.
The one thing that is as sure in my head as the contrary is in yours is that Scholes was the better player between him and Gerrard. It's not even a contest. But I know I'm not going to change your mind on this matter.
Ah MrMarcello seems to have made a similar point while I was typing there. Glad we're on the same page Marcello!
They're all out today!
The thing you're forgetting is that you also had by far the best manager in the league. Playing devil's advocate, it is entirely possible that a better set of players under a poor manager will not perform as well as an inferior set of players under a better manager.
Otherwise how would you explain your current predicament where the same team who walked the league last year + £70m is floundering, while others with supposedly inferior players are flourishing? And I'm not just talking about Liverpool but Spurs & Everton also.
Management plays a part of course, but so does progress of other clubs as well as decline of your own players. It's not just as simple as saying: title winning squad + 'improvements' (debatable) = will do better. Loads of factors come into play, but yes management is a part of it.
I recall plenty of Liverpool fans claiming Rafa was better than SAF, and if not for the bent officials and refs, Liverpool would have won more.
United walked the league partly in thanks to subpar coaching and player performances from Chelsea and City. RVP carried the side for parts of 2012-13 and his contributions were the primary reason the club ultimately won (contrast with say City having signed him instead, I doubt United would have won the league). This season, he's been MIA with injuries, and in matches where points have been lost while he was out, he may have rescued the side, pushing them up a few spots in the table. No Scholes/proper replacement and a horrendous defense, be it subpar performances or coaching or both, also a difference from last season. Moyes is crap though. Other clubs have upped their performances this season.
That 70m is a figure and does not show the entire picture. The signings of a) Valera (age 20, earning his bones in the Reserves), b) Fellaini (wasted) and b) Mata (not even a month at the club). Fellaini was the wrong player for this club and a certain panic buy. They could have signed a better player with a brighter future for half the cost (McCarthy).
Two of our centre backs are leaving. I imagine Vidic will essentially be replaced by Jones (currently midfield) and someone like Michael Keane will replace a barely playing Rio. It's possible that we'll get an experienced decent defender as back up to Evans, Jones & Smalling, but I think essentially replacing Vidic with Jones and Rio with Keane wouldn't leave us with a particularly worse defence than we currently have. Likewise we might buy or promote a young player to warm the bench as our new LB's deputy, but to be honest Buttner is no worse than the majority of back up full backs who see only a few games a season (the likes of Rose, Kelly, Flanagan, Boyata).
Mata was Chelsea's player of the season for the past two years. Of course he's a different "level" than Paulinho. You act as though Paulinho wouldn't have come to United if we were interested, but obviously we weren't (although I'd have him over Fellaini certainly). You are clearly slightly delusional if you feel any of Spurs' recent signings are in the same stratosphere as Mata (illustrated by the fact that he probably earns 50% more than your highest paid player).
The reason our "billy big bucks mega-wages" haven't attracted world class player's (apart from RVP and now Mata), is because we haven't needed these player's. Why would Ferguson spend hundreds of millions on top class player's when we were already winning the League 5 times out of 7?
I'm not really sure what you are suggesting with your comparisons? That Spurs can also sign young players with potential or second tier established players? Of course they can, I'm pretty sure my point was that these are the only kind of player's that Spurs can sign. United (like Chelsea, City and in the future probably moreso Arsenal) can in addition to these, also target top tier players: the likes of Aguero, RVP, Mata, Ozil, Toure, Hazard, Torres (lol).
Again in Football money is King. That is why Chelsea and City are currently the best teams in the League. Fortunately United (particularly now that the debt is under control) are very, very rich. We can afford to throw money at any problem in a way that only a few clubs can. These are Chelsea, City, PSG, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, United and Real Madrid. So even if after one season you optimistically put United at the bottom of this list, they will still be favourites to land every player who isn't being chased by the aforementioned 6 (and bearing in mind most of those teams will not be looking for central midfielders and left backs I'd say we should feel optimistic).
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I'm not downgrading Sturridge and I guess it depends what your definition is of an outstanding player.
In my opinion Suarez is one of the best players in the world (I predicted he would be when I first saw him playing for Groningen), and I think Coutinho has the potential to be one of the best players in the World.
I don't regard Sturridge in that bracket, although I do consider him a very good player.
I'm actually being very complementary towards Liverpool, especially considering I'm a United fan.
But if I was a scouser I would still be concerned about the long term future because Liverpool desperately need investment in a larger capacity stadium or they simply won't consistently be able to compete with the big guns in the Premier League or Europe. The chances of finding the 'next Suarez' on the cheap are very small, no matter who you are.
Of course.
I imagine there were a few Liverpool fans who proclaimed Rafa a better manager in European competition perhaps and that necessarily is not a preposterous suggestion, but I can't imagine anyone being able to back up such a suggestion in the league. The rest of your post is pretty spot on and I can't argue with any of it.
I was just throwing the managerial issue out there as a possible explanation as to why fans of other clubs can now suggest that their players are now better than yours. Your stars were being managed by the best manager in the world so looked like world beaters in a winning team. Other teams' players are now arguably being better managed in a team which is certainly performing better and so will obviously look like better players. The proof will of course be in the longevity of this position.
As a "scouser" I can confirm that I am concerned about all of that which is why I am more worried about not finishing in the Top 3/4 than I am about not winning the league. We won't win the league this season. In fact, mathematically we have more chance of finishing outside the Top 4 than we do finishing top. Champions' League money is vital to us if we want to continue the progression.
Did I really just read that Glaston rates Lloris over De Gea?
Yes. But then again you read that GLASTON rates him over De Gea. Don't really know why that'd baffle you