Based on how they've actually performed, I'd pick TAA, Robertson, VVD, Keita, Salah, Firmino and Mane for a starting spot in a mixed team to start the season. It feels weird to pick TAA though as he is still a bit dodgy defensively and I guess Mourinho wouldn't, but he's great going forwards and constantly improving, whilst Valencia is the opposite. Sanchez ought to get the nod ahead of Mane as he's a better player, but I don't think his performances last season were enough to justify it.
Liverpool's squad now even with United's?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Based on how they've actually performed, I'd pick TAA, Robertson, VVD, Keita, Salah, Firmino and Mane for a starting spot in a mixed team to start the season. It feels weird to pick TAA though as he is still a bit dodgy defensively and I guess Mourinho wouldn't, but he's great going forwards and constantly improving, whilst Valencia is the opposite. Sanchez ought to get the nod ahead of Mane as he's a better player, but I don't think his performances last season were enough to justify it.
Well, Liverpool have certainly adressed their 2 biggest weaknesses. Goalkeeper issue was clear for everyone to see, and if Alisson can replicate his form from Roma, we'll have the second or third best keeper in the league. That's a big upgrade on what we had.
Since VVD signed and Robertson settled in, we've actually had a good defensive record. Lovren does have his nutcase moments, but overall, I'm quite satisfied with the defense. My biggest concern barring GK was the number 6 position. In the midst of Karius losing his marbles in the final, Henderson's performance went under the radar - it was one of the biggest midfield choke jobs I've ever seen. He can't turn to save his life or beat the press (ever). Zidane clearly instructed Benzema and Modic to make sure Henderson doesn't have time on the ball, and we got shattered in midfield (we would have been bossed by them in midfield anyway, but Henderson's limitations being exposed made our task impossible). He kept deferring responsibility to our 19 year old fullback, and barely played the ball forward. It was infuriating - he's supposed to be the Captain, but his lack of confidence in his own ability (sadly, rational given his technical limitations for that poisition) were woefully exposed.
I can't say if Fabinho will take to the league super well, however, he is much better on the ball than Henderson and really good at beating the press - this will adress one of our biggest weaknesses. Margins are thin at the top, and this could be the difference in some games.
Overall, I'm really happy that even though we lost Coutinho, we reinvested that money very smartly in getting the Keita and VVD deals done last year, and now backing the manager with some more key signings. Its also the first time in ages that we've had a pretty good year and not lost our best player (seeing Salah and Firmino comit to long term deals was an added bonus this summer!)
I think Liverpool have a better first 11 than United (not by much), while United have more strength in depth. Its the first time since I have followed football (15 or so years) that I actually think we're pretty neck and neck with United, and I (grain of salt as naturally biased) think that our players suit our system better, and will allow us to outperform United this coming season. A lot will depend on the fintess of Salah for us, and Lukaku for United. Even with the media circus, its never smart to underestimate Mourinho.
I think there should be similar expectations from both teams/managers. Both have spent around 400 million since they joined and have had enough time to create the team in their own image. Should be an exciting contest. What I think will happen is both sides will break 80 points, and battle for second, while City's reserves are destroying teams 11-0.
Since VVD signed and Robertson settled in, we've actually had a good defensive record. Lovren does have his nutcase moments, but overall, I'm quite satisfied with the defense. My biggest concern barring GK was the number 6 position. In the midst of Karius losing his marbles in the final, Henderson's performance went under the radar - it was one of the biggest midfield choke jobs I've ever seen. He can't turn to save his life or beat the press (ever). Zidane clearly instructed Benzema and Modic to make sure Henderson doesn't have time on the ball, and we got shattered in midfield (we would have been bossed by them in midfield anyway, but Henderson's limitations being exposed made our task impossible). He kept deferring responsibility to our 19 year old fullback, and barely played the ball forward. It was infuriating - he's supposed to be the Captain, but his lack of confidence in his own ability (sadly, rational given his technical limitations for that poisition) were woefully exposed.
I can't say if Fabinho will take to the league super well, however, he is much better on the ball than Henderson and really good at beating the press - this will adress one of our biggest weaknesses. Margins are thin at the top, and this could be the difference in some games.
Overall, I'm really happy that even though we lost Coutinho, we reinvested that money very smartly in getting the Keita and VVD deals done last year, and now backing the manager with some more key signings. Its also the first time in ages that we've had a pretty good year and not lost our best player (seeing Salah and Firmino comit to long term deals was an added bonus this summer!)
I think Liverpool have a better first 11 than United (not by much), while United have more strength in depth. Its the first time since I have followed football (15 or so years) that I actually think we're pretty neck and neck with United, and I (grain of salt as naturally biased) think that our players suit our system better, and will allow us to outperform United this coming season. A lot will depend on the fintess of Salah for us, and Lukaku for United. Even with the media circus, its never smart to underestimate Mourinho.
I think there should be similar expectations from both teams/managers. Both have spent around 400 million since they joined and have had enough time to create the team in their own image. Should be an exciting contest. What I think will happen is both sides will break 80 points, and battle for second, while City's reserves are destroying teams 11-0.
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I'm not sure you were following the media last season, but most was saying last season was a failure for united. Why would we expect it to be different for Liverpool? You are now the only contenders to city and I do not think it is acceptable for Liverpool to be 19 points off city come end of season. Do you?
IMO, they have the better team. They had obvious issues and they improved on that. Plus, their attacking play has always been much stronger than us, so I expect them to be a bit stronger than United this season
Don't care what the media said. The media are full of hyperbole and generalities. Even ex players analysis at times barely scratches the surface.
I don't think United getting 81 points was a failure by any means. You were second most of the year, and finished there deservedly - the table doesn't lie.
You invested heavily last year, but still some way short of Pep. Second was the expectation, and you got there. Reasonably good season, but should have done better in the CL, where I would say QF would have been a reasonable expectation, however margins are small in knockout football.
Similarly, now that we have invested heavily, I expect us to finish second and have a good cup run - Klopp should win a trophy. However, given what Klopp and Mourinho inherited squad wise, and that they've both been comfortably outspent by Pep, its not rationally reasonable for either to be expected to win the league. Doing so would be a tremendous achievement by either, as this City side is one of the most dominant and complete squads I've ever seen.
LOL. So many united fans who are trying to wish into existence the kind of self-sabotage on us that they inflict on themselves.
We're very happy with our manager and he has our full support for the longterm. If we find ourselves in 2nd behind a city gunning for another 100 point season, we will not be losing our shit the way you did.
United still have a much deeper squad with top quality players like players like Martial, Rashford, Mata (assuming Lingard starts at RW) as back and other decent backups like Rojo, Jones and Shaw also available. The gap in the first XI has certainly decreased with Liverpool's signings though, maybe theirs is better.
Over a long season, a deep squad is more important than a high quality first team so still expect United to come above Liverpool come the end of the season.
Over a long season, a deep squad is more important than a high quality first team so still expect United to come above Liverpool come the end of the season.
Considering how you started the season last year - 7 wins & a draw in your first 8 games - the season never met the expectations that would have materialised after such a start, so it's understandable why some people would see it as a failure. You showed during those first 8 games, & in periods throughout the season, that you have the players to put in a challenge. It's a clean slate for everyone right now. Jose needs to get his players performing at the level we saw 12 months ago, & more importantly, ensure it's kept up right through the campaign. Klopp's key tasks are to have the new lads fit into his system more or less from the off. A similar sluggish start to what we witnessed last season, & any sort of title challenge will be extinguished before it even catches fire.
There are lots of probabilities in football, but there are no certainties. That's why we fans keep coming back for more, & that's why managers get paid to try & make our dreams come true.
You misunderstand. I care not if you support your manager or not. Its just that if klopp achieved the same result as Mourinho last season, shouldn’t we (including neutrals) label klopp as a failure like we all did with Mourinho, seeing that the expectation for Liverpool this season is the same as for United last season? Or does it work differently?
Depends on what different people think. Given that Mourinho had spent 150 m+ on average over his time at United as of last summer, a better quality of football and a deeper CL run was certainly expected. The biggest gripe your own fans seem to have is the quality of football.
Now that Klopp has spent similar amounts, anything other than 80+ points, 2nd (at worst 3rd), CL QF and a strong domestic cup run will be failure. The scenario I mention is what I'd consider par, alongisde good football. Given United's similar overall investment since Jose took over, I'd say the same should be expected of Mourinho.
While the media are a bunch of lunatics, I do believe a better style of football would allow Mourinho a lot more breating room - it doesn't help that your ex players and legends say pretty damning stuff about the quality of football played. Sexy football and 81 points wouldn't have got the media reaction that Mourinho-ball and 81 points did. Regardless, that season with 81 points was certainly not a failure. Played to par in the league and bit below in the CL.
At the end of the day, trophies are king, but good football is important to some degree too. I can't think of a big in team in Europe that played the style of Mourinho's football last year - it was really dull. Now if a manager gets the same results playing better football, he will certainly get more leeway from the media and his own fanbase. Its quite logical. At the same time, Mourinho has lost the 'media darling' situation he had going on when he joined Chelsea in 2005. The media do target him unfairly at times - some of it he brings on due to his personality, but a lot of it is plainly unfair.
Happens though, they're (media) all a bunch of sheep. Benitez was labelled a failure for winning multiple trophies, getting Liverpool to be ranked 1 in the UEFA coefficients while spending far less than Ferguson, Mourinho etc. The narrative and expectations from him to win the league with the garbage he inherited, and less money to spend than his challengers was bewildering. I don't think his cold personality, or the bland football helped his case, either! At the time he was a figure of derision with United fans, especially when we brought up the spending argument - I think Ferguson being a demi-god skewed the judgement of your fanbase, and now you have to experience the harsh realities of being managed by merely very good managers, and realize, unless you're an all time great manager, its really hard to win the league without spending the most. I've gone on a weird tangent, sorry for that, but its still true ha!
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The morale of the story is that united fans spat their dummies out during their best season since Ferguson left, having no sense of proportion to their relative improvement or the fact that City were simply uncatchable. The media were just riffing off the overwhelming vibe off the fanbase. And all of it was silly.
So no, "we" should not do that. Whataboutism is a terrible precept for behaviour, really.
This is a fair point. There is little clemency for trophyless and shit football.
World cup winners?
Who is claiming that? He runs more, but that's about it.
It's a different thing though for cup competitions, where especially at the later stages you meet a lot of teams of similar quality to yours. In the league you need to be able to dominate games against most opposition. I think Fergies teams at times could do that to perfection, beat the mid table teams in the league with attacking football and switch back to defensive football in the cup competitions. Also even defensive football can look entertaining in parts if you attack at neck breaking pace once the chance opens up, France did that great at times and so did our team back when we had Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo up front.
The problem with Mou's team at the moment is that they are defensive, super slow and thus almost all the time fecking boring, especially if they completely stop any attacking play once they are 1 goal up, it's fecking infuriating.
It's a fair bit of a grey zone. Keita is touted as someone who could potentially be the best midfielder in the world, but it's an open question and certainly as he is joining a new league. Pogba had a good shout for being the best midfielder in the world at juventus. He hasn't been at united, but everyone knows he has the ability for it although he is not delivering on that so far.
On balance, I'd still say Pogba is the better player in this league until proven otherwise.
Theyre the main threat to city this season in my opinion. Just hope they slip up in the lesser fixtures again - and us!
2003 they didn't. Same manager, same players etc.
They'd won 3 trophies in 01, finished 2nd in 02 and for all the world it seemed they'd be be big title challengers in 03. And instead they were shite.
Same thing in 07 actually.
The management is a big difference, but the first 11 is better imo. The manager makes them close down and run, but they have better technique on the ball.
Get your point, fair enough.
And so it has been decided. Liverpool will win the league. Shall we cancel tonight's match?
So much of how you determine an answer depends on how much importance you put on different factors. For example, United has pretty quality depth at center back, But VVD provides a steady presence and makes any partner much better. Do you go with Liverpool and hope vvd stays healthy, or assume there will be injuries and take united's group.
The advantage Liverpool has is that its players clearly fit with what Klopp wants to do, while areas of united's squad, especially fullbacks, provide a drag on the whole team and limit what Mourinho can do tactically. This doesn't really have much to do with squad strength, although it does influence how likely the team is to play to its potential as a unit.
Also, it remains to be seen how well pool's new signings perform, but they have attempted to address some of their bigger issues from last year (goalkeeping, cutting out opposing counters with a real dm, controlling the game through midfield, and attacking depth). Fred and dalot are nice signings, but dalot isn't likely to contribute much in the next year or two, and fred won't help provide width in the attack.
The advantage Liverpool has is that its players clearly fit with what Klopp wants to do, while areas of united's squad, especially fullbacks, provide a drag on the whole team and limit what Mourinho can do tactically. This doesn't really have much to do with squad strength, although it does influence how likely the team is to play to its potential as a unit.
Also, it remains to be seen how well pool's new signings perform, but they have attempted to address some of their bigger issues from last year (goalkeeping, cutting out opposing counters with a real dm, controlling the game through midfield, and attacking depth). Fred and dalot are nice signings, but dalot isn't likely to contribute much in the next year or two, and fred won't help provide width in the attack.
LFC have edge over where their stars and key players have a strong understanding, interlinking plays. And the manager can get the best of the average players (Robinson, Henderson). Whereas Man Utd have edge in big matches, and winning under pressure especially their manager. LFC lack winners and thus they always have bottled it.
Yeah i agree. To be honest, players like Fred and Keita are very difficult to rate because most of us haven't seen them play before, or have only seen highlight reels.
I think Henderson is very underrated on these boards. Most people don't include him in their lists. But he's actually a good player.
I wonder if Pool fans are losing their shit about Klopp trying to lower expectations from a title challenge despite all the investment.
I bet there isn't the same nonsense as on here about his players feeling hurt or him making excuses. Same with Spurs and Poch.
I bet there isn't the same nonsense as on here about his players feeling hurt or him making excuses. Same with Spurs and Poch.
We still lack attacking depth. Fekir would have been a massive help.
I think a lot is being disregarded for the fact Liverpool's new signings still need to bed in.
Replacing two CM with players who have never played in the Premier League, that is a massive change to the main spine of the team.
Personally I don't think Liverpool will perform as the media and their fans seem to think. The season hasn't even started and they are as arrogant as ever. Ultimately for them if they finish second can that really be seen as an achievement these days?
We finish second and all United fans are miserable. Liverpool have the potential to finish second this season and their fans start getting cocky. Just about sums them up.
Replacing two CM with players who have never played in the Premier League, that is a massive change to the main spine of the team.
Personally I don't think Liverpool will perform as the media and their fans seem to think. The season hasn't even started and they are as arrogant as ever. Ultimately for them if they finish second can that really be seen as an achievement these days?
We finish second and all United fans are miserable. Liverpool have the potential to finish second this season and their fans start getting cocky. Just about sums them up.
They will need time to gel. On paper United's squad is deeper and first 11 individually is at least equal too. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they finished 3rd-4th. Next season they should be very close to City though, no doubt about that.
They have a stronger set of players at their disposal. Always thought their midfield was underrated but now with Keita they are certainly better. Mane and Salah are top players. Their defence is also superior to United in every position.
Of the two cm's we bought, i think only Keita will be a regular starter at first.
I Think Henderson and Fabinho will rotate a bit at first, so it wont be such a big upset as one might expect.
I was referring to the situation after the transfer window. Last season we had the better squad. We were good defensively and individual quality got us the points most of the time. Whereas, they were very unbalanced before signing VVD as far as I remember and after CL QFs they prioritized that competition.
I believe the additions have made them more balanced. We'll know whose players are better as the season progresses. However, their system allows them to potentially score more goals, while ours depend on individual brilliance.
Any trio of Pogba, Matic, Fred, Pereira looks like a dominant midfield and hopefully will allow more opportunities for the attackers. We'll have to wait and see.
Liverpool have strengthened the weakest areas of their team and I expect them to finish above us.
Individually there might not be a great difference between the squads but they have an identity and way of playing and they play to win every game which is what you will have to do to compete withCity.
I don’t think can say the same about United, we don’t seem to be building towards anything and I think we might struggle to get as many points as last season.
Individually there might not be a great difference between the squads but they have an identity and way of playing and they play to win every game which is what you will have to do to compete withCity.
I don’t think can say the same about United, we don’t seem to be building towards anything and I think we might struggle to get as many points as last season.
If JM instilled *some* confidence in his players I believe we still have the better squad.
The likes of Sanchez need to up their game though, one of the top 10 players in the league, Pogba needs to bust a gut like he does for France and Rom needs to capture some of his Belgium form.
Klopp seems to have all his individuals playing above their natural level, whilst JM has our players playing well below.
The likes of Sanchez need to up their game though, one of the top 10 players in the league, Pogba needs to bust a gut like he does for France and Rom needs to capture some of his Belgium form.
Klopp seems to have all his individuals playing above their natural level, whilst JM has our players playing well below.
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Not losing my shit nor I haven't seen anyone to lose their shit either in scouser fan base.
The way the results are achieved matters a great deal to both United and Liverpool. Both clubs value greatly attacking, dominating football. United got a great result last year by finishing second, but cost of it was very, very depressing season emotionally. Boring football and going out with a whimper in CLs. Whining manager to top it off. And the FA final was just bending over too. The only time caf had a feeling of old United and enthusiasm was when you won against us and City. Everything else was bad mostly.
Where Liverpool's season result-wise was weaker it was achieved through a nail-biting thrill ride of epic meltdowns mixed with nirvana like victories. Liverpool's fans (and most of the neutrals) loved the drama. It was thoroughly entertaining and frustrating at the same time.
If Klopp can deliver the same kind of ride Liverpool fans will be happy. And there is a sense of forward movement as a club and as a team.
I would say which comes out on top depends entirely how United's season starts. If the wheels come off at United then Liverpool will cruise pretty comfortably relative to the United but it's going to get real ugly real fast for United if the team struggles.
They have a better squad than us now. In terms of the first XI, they are ahead of us two. In my opinion, they have the second best team behind Man City. If they don't finish ahead of us and the rest of the chasing pack, then they should quite rightly be scoffed at. No excuses now.
So lets get this straight. Some fans argue United were rubbish last season and have a terrible squad - finished 2nd, comfortably. Meanwhile, those same fans claim Liverpool were superb and have a great squad thats now become a world class squad to rival Man City - finished 4th, 6 points behind the "awful" United, and 25 points behind City.
All this suggests Liverpool have a "much better" squad than United?
Doesn't really add up, does it.
All this suggests Liverpool have a "much better" squad than United?
Doesn't really add up, does it.
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Hi all. Liverpool fan here and I thought i'd dip in here as its an interesting discussion.
Squad comparison? Not for me as I believe its extremely difficult thing to do plus I don't believe there actually a huge gap between the two, if any. However, I will say that the two squads are probably closer now than they have been in the past. Many of us Liverpool fans are mainly happy that we've actually manged to have a transfer window where we've really addressed key areas of the squad. It wasn't a perfect window (we pulled out of the Fekir deal and opted against a Plan B for example) but at last we've bought players that play in the positions that needed strengthening, we've got some quality and most importantly they seem to fit the way Klopp wants them to play. I do feel that we may have a better squad balance in that regard.
I think its fair to say that we are a stronger team this year than we were last year and leave it at that. City are still clear favourites for me.
Squad comparison? Not for me as I believe its extremely difficult thing to do plus I don't believe there actually a huge gap between the two, if any. However, I will say that the two squads are probably closer now than they have been in the past. Many of us Liverpool fans are mainly happy that we've actually manged to have a transfer window where we've really addressed key areas of the squad. It wasn't a perfect window (we pulled out of the Fekir deal and opted against a Plan B for example) but at last we've bought players that play in the positions that needed strengthening, we've got some quality and most importantly they seem to fit the way Klopp wants them to play. I do feel that we may have a better squad balance in that regard.
I think its fair to say that we are a stronger team this year than we were last year and leave it at that. City are still clear favourites for me.
What is shocking is not that the statement is true (that remains to be seen) but that it can even be a viable talking point given that three or four years ago the only Liverpool players that would have looked worth a place in our XI were Coutinho and….um….that's it. I"m still not convinced that their players are now better but - and I say this through gritted teeth - their football is a damn sight more entertaining.
I can't believe what a bargain Robertson was at 8m (?). That's fecking value.
On paper they're about equal but I'd even give theirs the nod ahead tbh. The past 3 transfer windows have been good for them. Time to see (hoping for failure bien sur) if it'll work out as everything suggests on paper.