I agree and would have loved to see the mentioned here and think Griezmann himself would have been very open to a move. Reus and Cavani, I'm not so sure and anything we say about them is pure speculation. What I was trying to say though is that it is LVG picks the targets and if they are also open to a move, we have shown that we are willing to overpay if necessary to get our man(ie Martial, Shaw, Di Maria). I don't think Woody was the problem regarding our transfer negotiations; rather the targets and if they actually wanted to leave or not.
Louis Van Gaal | 2015-16 Performance Thread
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I agree and would have loved to see the mentioned here and think Griezmann himself would have been very open to a move. Reus and Cavani, I'm not so sure and anything we say about them is pure speculation. What I was trying to say though is that it is LVG picks the targets and if they are also open to a move, we have shown that we are willing to overpay if necessary to get our man(ie Martial, Shaw, Di Maria). I don't think Woody was the problem regarding our transfer negotiations; rather the targets and if they actually wanted to leave or not.
It really goes both ways though..those calling him one of the best young players in European having hardly ever knew him 3 days ago are equally as ridiculous..The honest truth is that none of us are sure, it could turn out to be a masterstroke or one of those transfers that will be mocked for years..neither side knows for sure.
But he did a great job at Dortmund..but yes,last season was bad..but they did very well to recover and reach both a cup final and get into Europe..LVG has even worse skeletons in his managerial closet too..Fergie got relegated with St. Mirren.
Yes.No denying that, just saying we should be looking at 3 or 4 candidates not just branding one the messiah.
I agree.. a proper search and interview process..No one should be visiting anybody in their house to tell them that their next United manager with no selection process..I think all candidates will carry some risk , even Pep .
I think this Martial signing may hurt Van Gaal. Martial has obviously got lots of talent but it's asking a lot of him to be effective while between the CBs as Van Gaal seems to want. From the 5 or 6 CL games I've seen of him he looks best right now running at players rather than making clever runs in behind or winning aerial battles or the other things a 9 in our rigid systems seems to be asked to do.
If we have another season where we score 60-odd goals and finish 3rd-4th without being in the title race, then without a deep CL run I would think there will be talk of replacement.
Van Gaal should get credit for apparently going with Martial over Pedro. We've made the better gamble for our future. Going short-term with Pedro would have made more sense for Van Gaal's own interests (Not getting replaced).
If we have another season where we score 60-odd goals and finish 3rd-4th without being in the title race, then without a deep CL run I would think there will be talk of replacement.
Van Gaal should get credit for apparently going with Martial over Pedro. We've made the better gamble for our future. Going short-term with Pedro would have made more sense for Van Gaal's own interests (Not getting replaced).
That was my original point. That at the end of the day no body knows and at the end of the day all he is right now is a talent. Calling him better or worse than others or trying to compare at this stage is ridiculous. I just can't stand conclusive statements such as 'this player is better or shows more promise than the other'. Hence why I said let's wait a couple of years to see how they develop and start making more justified comparisons at that stage, at which they will all still be too young for such conclusive statements.
It's a huge gamble even if you ignore the huge fee we've paid for him. We need a striker / attacker who can go straight in and make an impact. Is Martial that guy? Well he could be but we just don't know. And at 19 is he ready to be a match winner for Manchester United?
Of course a lot comes down to what mission LVG is on. Maybe the club have told him that winning trophies is secondary? The main objective for him is to repair the damage done by Moyes and leave a quality squad in place? And if that is his objective then he's definitely clearing out a lot of the garbage whilst bringing in young players with lots of potential.
I have to give credit to LVG for being so ruthless. He's gotten rid of a lot of dead wood which was needed. But I'm not sure what position he's going to leave us in overall.
I think you/we need to look at him in the context of Memphis. Memphis IMO is much further along the line than Martial, a leading goal scorer and impact player in the Dutch league and yet there is talk that he'll need this season to really adapt to the PL. So to expect a gifted 19 year old to have any kind of meaningful impact straight off I think is asking for a hell of a lot.
Martial is an exciting player for the long term but we really needed a stopgap player like Pedro who can inject experience and what we're missing on the attack into the team right from the go. LVG might be planning for the future but if things don't improve soon, things might start turning against him and he won't have a future with United to look at.
I think long-term the squad is in a decent place:
---------Martial------ (Wilson)
Memphis-------RWF (Januzaj, Pereira)
-------Herrera------- (Mata)
----CM--Schneiderlin (Blind)
Shaw--------Darmian (Blind, RB)
-----LCB-Smalling--- (Jones)
---------GK---------- (Romero)
Is our 4-5 year depth chart, I figure.
-We will sign a GK or improbably retain De Gea, so that spot doesn't worry me.
-LCB, I think we need to just upgrade from Rojo. Jones will be happy enough as Smalling's backup, but we need another starter.
-CM, we'll need to sign someone soon enough. I could see getting 2 years (including this one) out of Schweinsteiger + Carrick then signing a passer to play next to a 27 year old Schneiderlin in the summer of 2017.
-RWF, we need to do what we did with Memphis, ideally, and sign a young, productive player who can help now and hopefully dominate later.
If just one of Januzaj or Pereira develops into a starter and Memphis and Martial develop as expected, we're basically one RW away from having a good, young attack.
So, I think squad-wise, we are in a decent place. Summer of 2016 will be about replacing De Gea (or retaining him), signing a partner for Smalling and a RW. That's not an unusually onerous summer. The attacker will be very expensive, the CB fairly so and the GK probably a bit less than that. The sort of summer Citeh just had with Sterling/De Bruyne/Otamendi/Delph but no Delph and a GK instead of one of those attackers.
But it's hard to believe we can play this brand of possession football and simultaneously get title-winning production from young attackers Martial and Memphis.
A nice thing about the squad is that the 25 year olds (Schneiderlin, Darmian and Smalling) who make up 3 of our 6 defensive positions (back 4 + DM + GK) will probably be at their peak in 2-3 years (Shaw will be 25, so no worries there either), as they are defensive types, which is when you would think Memphis, Martial and hopefully one (or 2) of Januzaj/Pereira/Wilson are starting to consistently produce. We look set to be a great team in 17-18 as long as we don't completely feck up the development of our attacking talent and find a CB and GK to develop chemistry with the 4 previously mentioned defenders.
TLDR: We should have signed Griezmann/Reus and Laporte/Gimenez, but there's always next summer.
Yeah that's essentially what I've said mate. Maybe martial can make an instant impact but I doubt it. Given that we don't think we will see the best from Memphis until next year. But then again Fergie used to prove that age is just a number. Rooney was having an impact at 19 as was Ronaldo. So if Martial is as good as we are led to believe maybe he can make an instant impact. For LVGs sake he needs to.
The bit I've highlighted is exactly the point we need to get back to. Instead of signing 5/6 players in a summer we need to get back to the point of just 2/3 but I do feel we are getting there. Like you say next summer we need a GK, CB and an attacker of some sorts. That's a much better position than this year when we needed a lot more.
Now that the window is closed and I've had some time to let it sink, I'm just a bit "meh" about it all.
The important thing for me is that I no longer have any worries about the future of the club. Long term (as in 2-3 years) we will be fine. LvG is building a good squad; talented and hungry players in the right age and with the right mentality. I only wish he himself had been a bit younger, so we could see him manage a team of his own making.
The disappointing thing though, is the fact that we are obviously not in a position to challenge for the league. LvG has said that by now we should, and I think most fans expected it as well. What is the reason for this? Maybe LvG himself realizes that he needs more time to understand the league? Maybe buying the right players didn't go as smooth as we'd thought? Who knows.
Hate to adopt the Liverpool slogan, but I suspect we will have to postpone our hopes for the title until next year. I think we all agree that we still need 2-3 players (attacker, defender and goalkeeper). For the last years we've been buying 2-4 players each summer, so I guess we will have to wait until the transfer window in August 2016 closes. Unless LvG pulls a rabbit out of his hat in January.
The important thing for me is that I no longer have any worries about the future of the club. Long term (as in 2-3 years) we will be fine. LvG is building a good squad; talented and hungry players in the right age and with the right mentality. I only wish he himself had been a bit younger, so we could see him manage a team of his own making.
The disappointing thing though, is the fact that we are obviously not in a position to challenge for the league. LvG has said that by now we should, and I think most fans expected it as well. What is the reason for this? Maybe LvG himself realizes that he needs more time to understand the league? Maybe buying the right players didn't go as smooth as we'd thought? Who knows.
Hate to adopt the Liverpool slogan, but I suspect we will have to postpone our hopes for the title until next year. I think we all agree that we still need 2-3 players (attacker, defender and goalkeeper). For the last years we've been buying 2-4 players each summer, so I guess we will have to wait until the transfer window in August 2016 closes. Unless LvG pulls a rabbit out of his hat in January.
The end of this season will be the real test of him. The position of the squad is largely his doing now. I think a lot of us would say that we needed to change up the squad and remove some of the players who didn't look like they were going to become stars or as good as they once were but I think the key is they needed replacing not removing. RVP wasn't at his best for the last 2 seasons but to think that he's done as a PL level striker doesn't work for me, if we didn't have another established striker to come in then why let him go? I'd be happy with him as backup to Rooney to no back up. Ditto Hernandez. Nani had a good season on loan, I'd get selling him if Pedro or someone was coming but with no replacement we look lacking in wide attackers to me. Januzaj is the same, what's most odd is he went from starting to just being shipped out. I get maybe LVG was testing him, although it worries me that he doesn't seem to think he can contribute out wide.
He's made some good signings as well so far so it's not all bad but I think we've been overly aggressive with shipping people out and not really replacing them. I see a lot of people saying Fergie used to fall out with players and it's true but I think there is a difference in that Fergie with important players, even if he maybe wasn't getting on with them as he used to, made the relationship work until he could move them on, either having a replacement ready or able to bring one in shortly after. LVG seems to very aggressive on this front which is fine but the players out aren't matching the players in and currently we're left with an attack where Rooney has to get c30 goals, something he's not done for a very long time even if that's not all his fault.
He's made some good signings as well so far so it's not all bad but I think we've been overly aggressive with shipping people out and not really replacing them. I see a lot of people saying Fergie used to fall out with players and it's true but I think there is a difference in that Fergie with important players, even if he maybe wasn't getting on with them as he used to, made the relationship work until he could move them on, either having a replacement ready or able to bring one in shortly after. LVG seems to very aggressive on this front which is fine but the players out aren't matching the players in and currently we're left with an attack where Rooney has to get c30 goals, something he's not done for a very long time even if that's not all his fault.
Although I am not that happy with out Football atm my respect for LvG has grown. He might not be the best Coach from the Point of view of a lot of Players but as a supporter I am glad that he has the balls to walk the hard route.
Not that I agree with all his decisions (selling Nani for such a small amount, not going for Pedro, paying such a crazy amount for our new Teenager) but looking at the whole Picture he did more or less what most of us have been asking for. He has built the Backbone for a younger and more balanced squad. There are still some issues left but if we are able to solve them as well we will be fine after a Transition period of 1 or 2 years.
Not that I agree with all his decisions (selling Nani for such a small amount, not going for Pedro, paying such a crazy amount for our new Teenager) but looking at the whole Picture he did more or less what most of us have been asking for. He has built the Backbone for a younger and more balanced squad. There are still some issues left but if we are able to solve them as well we will be fine after a Transition period of 1 or 2 years.
Four of the stories featured on Football365's site today:
Pedro criticises van Gaal over Valdes
LVG Called A 'Scoundrel' Over 'Inhumane' Treatment
Keown Blasts 'Embarrassing Soap Opera' At United
Good grief...
Pedro criticises van Gaal over Valdes
LVG Called A 'Scoundrel' Over 'Inhumane' Treatment
Keown Blasts 'Embarrassing Soap Opera' At United
Good grief...
This talk of how van Gaal inhibits creativity...
First of all, I don't think the performances we've seen so far are acceptable. We haven't been good enough so I don't intent to make excuses for the fact that we've looked toothless in the final third. With that out of the way, I don't think it is entirely fair that we make this assertion. You don't win titles like van Gaal has done if your team wasn't creative or if your manager doesn't incentivise risk-taking.
Van Gaal plays football in a very controlled environment. His focus is on teamwork. He gives certain roles to his players: 4 defensive players (Smalling, Blind, Schweinsteiger/Carrick and Schneiderlin) and attacking roles for the front 4. The front 4 are the players who are allowed to take the risks. This isn't something alien to modern football, but it is alien to Manchester United. However, it is time that fans forget the way United 'should play". That way is the past, the club needed the posession based approach that van Gaal brings.
The most common complaint against van Gaal's system is that there isn't enough pace in the game. Well, van Gaal agrees, as the Martial signing shows. Football is a beautiful sport. There are many ways to play the game. One may have a preference for a certain way of playing the game but one has to appreciate the diversity in it instead of boxing your preferences into one particular system and saying that must be the only way. This direction that van Gaal brings is exciting, it is new for us.
If one looks at his CV, there shouldn't even be a discussion on the merits of van Gaal's style of play. When it comes to United, I think it's only fair that we judge his philosophy only when he has the team set in his image; not when there is a gaping hole up front and a complete lack of pace.
First of all, I don't think the performances we've seen so far are acceptable. We haven't been good enough so I don't intent to make excuses for the fact that we've looked toothless in the final third. With that out of the way, I don't think it is entirely fair that we make this assertion. You don't win titles like van Gaal has done if your team wasn't creative or if your manager doesn't incentivise risk-taking.
Van Gaal plays football in a very controlled environment. His focus is on teamwork. He gives certain roles to his players: 4 defensive players (Smalling, Blind, Schweinsteiger/Carrick and Schneiderlin) and attacking roles for the front 4. The front 4 are the players who are allowed to take the risks. This isn't something alien to modern football, but it is alien to Manchester United. However, it is time that fans forget the way United 'should play". That way is the past, the club needed the posession based approach that van Gaal brings.
The most common complaint against van Gaal's system is that there isn't enough pace in the game. Well, van Gaal agrees, as the Martial signing shows. Football is a beautiful sport. There are many ways to play the game. One may have a preference for a certain way of playing the game but one has to appreciate the diversity in it instead of boxing your preferences into one particular system and saying that must be the only way. This direction that van Gaal brings is exciting, it is new for us.
If one looks at his CV, there shouldn't even be a discussion on the merits of van Gaal's style of play. When it comes to United, I think it's only fair that we judge his philosophy only when he has the team set in his image; not when there is a gaping hole up front and a complete lack of pace.
We aren't "too safe", it is just a different way to how we were playing under Sir Alex. How is giving roles to players and focussing on teamwork rigid and overthought? It seems that most of the criticism of van Gaal is because he isn't Sir Alex and his ideas are different to that of Sir Alex.
To be fair it's not a reaction to one game, but to the general standard of our play continuing on from last season. It's a cumulative thing - we may have been unbeaten up to last week but nobody (except apparently Van Gaal) was happy with what was being served up in our previous games.
Any improvement against Liverpool will be taken as just that - one game, and the vast majority of people will, I believe, wait to see if that improvement can be maintained. Sooner or later Van Gaal will have to demonstrate tangible improvement to an acceptable extent, not just keep wittering on about "process" and "philosophy".
I don't think that's it at all. It certainly isn't for me. I'm judging him solely on his choice of playing style.
We are too safe, I don't know how anyone can argue against that. It is definitely a different of way of playing football but calling it that doesn't make it any less conservative. He's not conservative because he gives roles to players, every manager does that. It's what he expects from his players. He clearly prefers his players to be so disciplined it sucks all possibility of high tempo attacking football on a consistent basis. He seems to think that so long as we've kept majority of the possession while looking toothless, it's a good performance. Mind you for all his rigidity we still get teams opening us up on a consistent basis.
Could see this happening. Someone like Pep or Klopp comes in, creating a similar impact to the one Heynckes had at Bayern after LvG.
That is exactly what I see happening..even if the style of football is completely different..It was cringeworthy when Richard Keys was crediting Moyes for Mata and Fellaini doing well as they were "his signings" ..Its more different when you leave a squad that was winning, and someone takes over and continues winning with them.
anyone has sub to post the full article?
Most top teams have a reasonably stable back room. Moyes destroyed Fergie's and LVG has destroyed Moyes back room. Wonder what is going to be the state in 2 years time. We want consistency in that area as well.
Personally, I like every thing that has been done, bar the loss of attacking intent. I have seen bits of that, so I am also open to suggest it is also players having the confidence to play the system.
I can't think of one player that has been brought in that has not been better than what we had. I think the balance in age and experience is also good.
Personally, I like every thing that has been done, bar the loss of attacking intent. I have seen bits of that, so I am also open to suggest it is also players having the confidence to play the system.
I can't think of one player that has been brought in that has not been better than what we had. I think the balance in age and experience is also good.
A club with these financial powers is bound to return to the top. It will have little to do with van Gaal if that happens after he is gone.
And you really believe that if and when Giggs gets the job?
As for Richard Keys, he's a knob. Hairy hands hasn't a notion. Only reason he credited Moyes with anything is because Moyes went on Bein sports when he was unemployed. Before that, cousin Richard was tearing him apart!
That is simply not true and especially not apparent in the games so far this season unless your memory is only capable of stretching back to one game. There are a lot of things you can criticise Van Gaal for but that is not one of them. Although I still see more positives that negatives regarding LVG(I am an optimist), the possession whilst looking toothless thing is really beginning to irk me too. However your last statement is just absurd.Whatever the method, we are a hard team to beat and currently one of the most defensively organised teams in the PL. We got 99 problems, but that ain't one.
Giggs isnt getting the job!..he's not right?!?
And yes, Richard Keys is a knob, but Im showing how facts can easily be twisted to suit a particular agenda
Leaves an excellent squad? He bloody damn well should considering the amount he'll have spent.
That is simply not true and especially not apparent in the games so far this season unless your memory is only capable of stretching back to one game. There are a lot of things you can criticise Van Gaal for but that is not one of them. Although I still see more positives that negatives regarding LVG(I am an optimist), the possession whilst looking toothless thing is really beginning to irk me too. However your last statement is just absurd.Whatever the method, we are a hard team to beat and currently one of the most defensively organised teams in the PL. We got 99 problems, but that ain't one.
Teams have had clear cut chances against us that they didn't take. The same amount of chances that we've created for ourselves barring the Newcastle game. Swansea exposed that flaw pretty ruthlessly.
Newcastle had 2. Tottenham had 0 as did Aston Villa and we've allowed the least shots on targets from any team in the PL thus far. Swansea did cut us up and I even argued how bad we looked in that game on several threads with posters who claimed we were in control. But one game hardly means teams are cutting us up at will. If it continues, I will agree with your point but it was a one-off in my opinion.
Well if possession football isn't for you, then I'm sorry you're going to be disappointed for some time now. If you are going to judge him on his philosophy, surely you should do so when he has the time to put his ideas across and have a proper squad; not having to sign 6 players every year and still have no pace going forward. His biggest concern right now seems to be pace going forward and the GK situation.
I argue against it because of a simple point. This is a guy who has won titles everywhere. He's been at the biggest clubs, some of the best players of our time have blossomed under him. You don't have that on your CV if you're conservative or don't take risks as a manager.
What does discipline have to do with attacking football? Sir Alex valued discipline, anybody who is anything in the world values discipline.
Well, the point of being a possession based team is to retain possession, of course he's going to value possession. His basic idea is you keep possession, you have control of the game because if you don't have the ball, you won't be able to do the most basic thing in football which is put the ball in the net.
No he doesn't value games where we dominate posession but look toothless. Check his remarks after the Villa game, the Spurs game or even the Everton game last season. He clearly said that he wasn't happy despite having majority of the possession. Seriously, sometimes it seems like fans are being deliberately obtuse when it comes to van Gaal.
We've conceded 3 goals in 4 league games, 4 in 6. That clearly isn't true.
I can count the number of times we were in danger of conceding in all games except the Swansea game on one hand. You're going to have 2-3 chances a game for the opposition. The Swansea game was the first game this season where we looked on the backfoot for a considerable period of time.
Are you going to give van Gaal credit for anything? This is really quite bizarre, this negativity towards the manager. I can understand if the guy isn't meeting his targets but he's got us back in Europe and it has been 4 games.
Agreed. It was impossible to address every area in just one transfer window. We've done a good job of covering most areas and now we need a CB, GK, and a forward. Although I do think we'll be needing another midfield player in case Schweini proves to be ineffective and because he is 31, as well as due to Carrick being 34. Morgan is a great asset in the team and Herrera too but I'd like to see someone like Pjanic in our midfield
Regardless of how it ends with LVG in the future, I am glad that he was brought in after the Moyes debacle. I think the management clearly had an idea to improve the quality of the squad, which meant weaning out the unwanted players. I may be wrong here, but I doubt a Klopp would have been able to handle the egos of Rooney and RVP in the squad. I think giving LVG another transfer window might set it up nicely for the likes of Pep or Klopp to take over. It would relatively be smooth transition to a newer manager with a freshly assembled squad.
United are a bit like a kid locked in toy shop at the moment. Guessing it will settle down eventually.
A very significant point. We've always taken for granted that LVG's objectives were to get us back to being a top club by competing for trophies and Europe, but what if that is not his first objective? What if his objective is to just rebuild the base of the club by leaving behind a team which can consistently finish in top four and compete for trophies over the next few years? If his targets are to create the foundation for a strong team first, and then compete for silverware if possible, then the way we judge him changes completely.
If the latter is true, then he is doing a marvellous job.
Shaw, Smalling, Blind, Darmian, Schneiderlin, Herrera, Mata, Depay, (Martial? De Gea?) are all players who will perform at the top level for quite a few years. You can build a decade around this core, and with the addition of a superstar or two (que our pursuit of young WC players like Di Maria, Neymar, Muller, Bale) and some temporary fixes (que our signing of Schweini), we will surely be up there at the top again, in due time.
Maybe we don't want another Moyes-esque debacle every time a manager retires, and hence the club wants a strong foundation of players rather than immediate results, so that there is scalability. That would explain why we are reluctant to make big signings which make immediate impacts but have less future value (like Pedro, or replacing Rooney with anyone other than a young WC player). We're willing to be a top four club for now, as long as we save up our big signings for the future.
In the wake of this perspective, LVG is doing a brilliant job.
Alan shearer was a great player but he's a shit pundit.
Why do you think LVG was afforded the time that Moyes wasn't Alan? Could it be that LVG met the minimum target that Moyes failed to meet? Nah...
You might agree with his overall sentiment but he's made the point terribly.
Will be interesting to see what he does with the 10 position.
Lol, I'm not happy with some of the shit recently, but fook me the media and ex-players are putting LVG to the sword. Will not be very long until the masses start lapping it up and turn on him, especially if it carries on at this intensity.