Luis Nani | 2012/13 Performances

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moses said:
I think isolating 5 things Nani did and don't take into account his 90 minutes and hiw it effects the teams play is pointless. As pointless as saying he was shit if created 5 chances. It's 90 minutes and that's the big picture.

Who thought that we'd score as many goals as we did when Ruud left or that Arsenal would have as many hidden strigs to their bow as we saw when Henry left? You have to step back and see how he effects the team both positively and negatively, not just build a team from a combination of isloated individuals. We all slate Real for that nonsense.

Personally, if I was playing beside Nani on the park I'd be annoyed with him, a lot.
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I agree. And I do think he's probably a frustrating player to play with at times because of the reasons mentioned on here: he's unpredictable and does something out of nothing. But that means it's much harder to know what he's going to do. A lot of what he does is very individual, so players can find it hard to read.

I don't think it's any coincidence the likes of Berbatov and Rooney seem to have Nani as the object of their ire more than any other player. They want to know what he's going to do and to execute it. He, because he tries things, often leaves them guessing and waiting for the ball.
 
adexkola said:
That is a valid point, but why aren't people consistent? Why is all (almost all) the criticism after yesterday evening aimed at one player, who happened to deliver more than all bar one or two players on the pitch?
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Well yeah, of course it's lopsided, but I'd guess he gets it in the neck more for two reasons: the first is that he makes really poor (and often quite strange) decisions on the pitch at times, which feeds into the second reason, which is that everyone knows what he's capable of and can't quite understand how he can go from being a 10/10 to looking like he hasn't got a clue what he's doing in the space of a few seconds.
 
Brophs said:
I agree. And I do think he's probably a frustrating player to play with at times because of the reasons mentioned on here: he's unpredictable and does something out of nothing. But that means it's much harder to know what he's going to do. A lot of what he does is very individual, so players can find it hard to read.

I don't think it's any coincidence the likes of Berbatov and Rooney seem to have Nani as the object of their ire more than any other player. They want to know what he's going to do and to execute it. He, because he tries things, often leaves them guessing and waiting for the ball.
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Everyone agrees that a good understanding is essential on a pitch, we like players to be familiar with each other and be able to read each other, yet because of how Nani playes that seems to be very hard to achieve. And as you say, you can see the frustration in the other players and you can hear it in the crowd and yet people refuse to accept that beyond certain moments there is any analysis needed. Being unpredictable to the opposition is iportant, but really you can only do that as a functioning unit.
 
Sir A1ex said:
But haven't you heard? He shoots too much!
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Which in an absurd statement. Rafael has had 5 shots so far in the PL, which is a shot every 54mins. Is that too much as a fullback? Surely if Nani is shooting too much then you have to look at Valencia and criticise him for not shooting enough, 1 shot every 270mins is pathetic as a winger.
 
moses said:
Everyone agrees that a good understanding is essential on a pitch, we like players to be familiar with each other and be able to read each other, yet because of how Nani playes that seems to be very hard to achieve. And as you say, you can see the frustration in the other players and you can hear it in the crowd and yet people refuse to accept that beyond certain moments there is any analysis needed. Being unpredictable to the opposition is iportant, but really you can only do that as a functioning unit.
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So Nani is the reason the team isn't completely on the same wavelength.

You're very biased against him and it really comes through in your posts.

Do you realize that he's played an important part in some of our best team goals in recent times? (for example Charity Shield vs City and Everton at home) In fact that Everton game was one of our better attacking performances for a long time. And he was right in the thick of it all.
 
moses said:
Everyone agrees that a good understanding is essential on a pitch, we like players to be familiar with each other and be able to read each other, yet because of how Nani playes that seems to be very hard to achieve. And as you say, you can see the frustration in the other players and you can hear it in the crowd and yet people refuse to accept that beyond certain moments there is any analysis needed. Being unpredictable to the opposition is iportant, but really you can only do that as a functioning unit.
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The key is balance, knowing when to keep it simple and when to introduce his flair. That comes with maturity and it's something he should be showing now but he hasn't hit his stride so far this year but if his Second Half last night is anything to go by then it bodes well.
 
Hectic said:
Now you can't argue it wouldn't be better for him to sort out some of the easier stuff, but why pick up on the frustrating parts from a game like yesterday, which in all come completely second to the numerous chances he created? Maybe he would have had 10 chances created then? I get the frustration at him, I really do, but in the context of a match like yesterday where he puts that many goals on a plate, is it really that relevant?
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I think it is relevant. Firstly they weren't on a plate. And you can't just give someone carte blanche because they created 5 chances. It's not American football where you have players doing jobs in isolation.

Am interesting discussion wouild be the effect of Nani's or anyone else's poor play on the team, a proper conversation about just that, without the 'he created 5 chances' mantra, because poor play does have a effect, the way good play does.
 
Orton said:
He had 3 shots all game, one was a good save, the other was dire and the other was the penalty. You would think he done a Ronaldo and took 10-15 pot shots going by this guys comment.
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:lol: Wut..

Did you watch the game? He had 8 shots most of which just hit a defender. 3 were on target, including the pen.
 
What strange decisions did he make yesterday in his general play? Was it really something exceptional? What about Valencia's million crosses to nobody? Does that not count as bad decision making? I don't quite understand why people are so lazy in their analysis of a player. Against Everton he had these two moments of awful decision making but I'm not seeing much else that's out of the ordinary when compared to our other players. He will always take a few more risks than someone like Valencia but you can't have a team of Valencia's.
 
moses said:
I think it is relevant. Firstly they weren't on a plate. And you can't just give someone carte blanche because they created 5 chances. It's not American football where you have players doing jobs in isolation.

Am interesting discussion wouild be the effect of Nani's or anyone else's poor play on the team, a proper conversation about just that, without the 'he created 5 chances' mantra, because poor play does have a effect, the way good play does.
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Well, we'll settle on chances that could have been put away, as a plate would make it sound like tap-ins, which you're right none were. I'm not giving him carte blanche. He fecked up a few times and turned the momentum of play, however, he also created numerous chances that could have resulted in goals. I know you take the good with the bad, and I don't mean we should only point out his successes, but in the context of just last night, I didn't see all that bad. Or maybe I saw so much good I'm willing to excuse the bad? I don't know, but we do it with every player Moses, particularly Giggs, Valencia and Rooney. It's the same thing but in different areas of the pitch. It would be great if he could cut out the silly stuff altogether, but in the meantime if he is able to provide to the extent he did yesterday, I'm going to overlook that when judging his overall performance. He could have been better yesterday, yes, but at the same time I saw enough positives that far over-shadowed the mess-ups from the first half.

To be fair, I doubt that would be an interesting discussion. None of this is.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
So Nani is the reason the team isn't completely on the same wavelength.

You're very biased against him and it really comes through in your posts.

Do you realize that he's played an important part in some of our best team goals in recent times? (for example Charity Shield vs City and Everton at home) In fact that Everton game was one of our better attacking performances for a long time. And he was right in the thick of it all.
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I never said that at all. I'm just asking for some analysis of why so many players and fans are frustrated by him.

Yes he played well against City in a friendly 13 months ago and aganisnt Everton 5 months ago, but you obverlook how poor he was against them 5 weeks ago, and I'm being biased?

I just remembered now the football forum rule that you can only love or hate a player. As neither apply I'll leave ye to it.
 
moses said:
I think it is relevant. Firstly they weren't on a plate. And you can't just give someone carte blanche because they created 5 chances. It's not American football where you have players doing jobs in isolation.

Am interesting discussion wouild be the effect of Nani's or anyone else's poor play on the team, a proper conversation about just that, without the 'he created 5 chances' mantra, because poor play does have a effect, the way good play does.
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The Hernandez chances were pretty great ones. Even the Kagawa one was a pretty good chance. What did the other players create in comparison barring Kagawa's touch for Carrick's goal?

You make Nani out to be Bebe in the buildup. The worst bit of play in the whole half which could have cost us was Valencia giving the ball away which led to a quick break by the opposition with us completely exposed. I didn't see this great harm Nani did to our play yesterday. He made a few mistakes like all our players did. He just generally takes a few more risks than most of them (like Giggs does) but more than makes up by being very productive, as he was yesterday as well. I personally think it's great to have that one player with so much flair.
 
Brophs said:
Well yeah, of course it's lopsided, but I'd guess he gets it in the neck more for two reasons: the first is that he makes really poor (and often quite strange) decisions on the pitch at times, which feeds into the second reason, which is that everyone knows what he's capable of and can't quite understand how he can go from being a 10/10 to looking like he hasn't got a clue what he's doing in the space of a few seconds.
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Fair enough. I still think that is true for every player who played on the pitch last night fits into those categories. I'll agree that Nani's decision making is "huh?" more frequently.

Amol, Moses is right, in that football isn't like American Football, where if a player rushed for 100 yds, passed for 350 yds, and scored 4 TDs, you'd be an utter spastic to mention the 2 turnovers he had in the game. The good has to be analyzed with the bad in football, it's a continuous game, it's perfectly valid for me to criticise Rooney for being shit all game even if he scored the match winner. The same applies to Nani. The "Nani is shit and needs to go" posts are different.

But if we were to look at the game, I don't think Kagawa or Evra had problems with Nani's decision making, they linked up very very well. So I don't think his overall play on the team was detrimental (it was at times, but who's wasn't?).
 
moses said:
I think the Liverpool comparison is good, as they too are creating chances, like Nani's saving grace?.
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It's an absolutely fecking awful comparison.

If we were saying, RVP hit the post 4 times, he must have played well, then you'd have a point. But we're not, if RVP hits the fecking post 4 times then he's not doing his fecking job is he, which is "get the ball on target".

Nani creating clear cut chances for others = doing his job.
 
moses said:
I never said that at all. I'm just asking for some analysis of why so many players and fans are frustrated by him.
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Fans are fickle. They see a player do one frustrating thing that matches a perception of him that stuck which was true at one point despite him actually doing things pretty well.

I'm not sure why you think so many players are frustrated with him. Immediate frustration, sure. All players like a team man who will always play the "correct" ball. But a team generally does need the ones that take some more risks as well who play a higher risk/higher reward game. Nani is that player for us. Certain types of players like Nani and Robben will do things that will annoy fans and players but that just comes with the package and it's a very very good package.

moses said:
Yes he played well against City in a friendly 13 months ago and aganisnt Everton 5 months ago, but you obverlook how poor he was against them 5 weeks ago, and I'm being biased?
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It seems you are. Because I didn't overlook anything. I clearly wasn't going through his every performance of the last 13 months. I was merely pointing out that two of our best team goals of late have involved him and using that as an example to my general point that our cohesiveness doesn't suffer due to Nani. I'm not sure why a woeful performance at City where Nani was poor but so was Rooney and everyone else matter to the point I'm making? Everyone has off days? It didn't help that we chose the wrong team which was bound to lose.

moses said:
I just remembered now the football forum rule that you can only love or hate a player. As neither apply I'll leave ye to it.
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That's your wish. I don't think anyone is saying one needs to only point out positives. Nani, like all our players, has negatives. He can work on his urgency of play for me. He, at times, comes across as too laid back in his approach on the pitch. Then, of course he can work on his decision making. Possibly consistency as well. But I do think that all of this is bloated by a certain section of fans to being out of the ordinary. Loads of our players suffer from similar issues.
 
I'm always right said:
It's an absolutely fecking awful comparison.

If we were saying, RVP hit the post 4 times, he must have played well, then you'd have a point. But we're not, if RVP hits the fecking post 4 times then he's not doing his fecking job is he, which is "get the ball on target".

Nani creating clear cut chances for others = doing his job.
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OK, I'm just saying that if pool are creating chances they are a good side? So all 'doing their job' except the striker? The same no?
 
I'm always right said:
It's an absolutely fecking awful comparison.

If we were saying, RVP hit the post 4 times, he must have played well, then you'd have a point. But we're not, if RVP hits the fecking post 4 times then he's not doing his fecking job is he, which is "get the ball on target".

Nani creating clear cut chances for others = doing his job.
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no, it equals him doing a part of his job.
 
Hectic said:
Well, we'll settle on chances that could have been put away, as a plate would make it sound like tap-ins, which you're right none were. I'm not giving him carte blanche. He fecked up a few times and turned the momentum of play, however, he also created numerous chances that could have resulted in goals. I know you take the good with the bad, and I don't mean we should only point out his successes, but in the context of just last night, I didn't see all that bad. Or maybe I saw so much good I'm willing to excuse the bad? I don't know, but we do it with every player Moses, particularly Giggs, Valencia and Rooney. It's the same thing but in different areas of the pitch. It would be great if he could cut out the silly stuff altogether, but in the meantime if he is able to provide to the extent he did yesterday, I'm going to overlook that when judging his overall performance. He could have been better yesterday, yes, but at the same time I saw enough positives that far over-shadowed the mess-ups from the first half.

To be fair, I doubt that would be an interesting discussion. None of this is.
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A very good appraisal, shame countless others are able to do the same.
 
moses said:
OK, I'm just saying that if pool are creating chances they are a good side? So all 'doing their job' except the striker? The same no?
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No, it means someone in that team is doing well, whoever is providing all these fecking assists that are then smashed against the post, not the entire team.

But my bet is, Suarez assists himself more often than not and then his crap finishing lets him down.
 
last nite was typical Nani

wasteful at times, silly penalty but laid on two superb passes for Hernandez towards the end.....

That's Nani and even with this inconsistency he's still a better player than Young

Valencia is more steady and consistent but at his best Nani is the most talented winger in the team...

Ronaldo was very wasteful the other night for Madrid after skinning Maicon/Kompany on plenty of occasions - He still grabbed the winner though
 
I'm still waiting for the Valencia thread to be bumped btw considering how poor he was yesterday and all season. Yet Nanis is the thread that gets the debate. What about discussing why RvP and Kagawa couldn't muster a shot on goal yesterday?

People see what they want to see I suppose without actually looking at the facts.
 
moses said:
this thread

Satement - "Nani has facets of his play I don't like"

Counter - "No he doesn't and so has Rooney"
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I don't think that's really what's happening here moses, at least to claim the whole thread is of people saying that is rubbish. But if you like, you can search the Rooney or the Valencia thread and see the same thing in reverse? Of course there will be stupid and idolized arguments, but I don't think that's being made either exclusively or overwhelmingly here.
 
moses said:
Satement - "Nani has facets of his play I don't like"

Counter - "No he doesn't and so has Rooney"
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Not really.

Even the biggest fan of Nani would be stupid to not understand that there are parts of his game that other fans don't like, in fact most of us realise that these "facets" are what cause fans to be overly negative when talking about him.

Put it this way, some of the negative comments after last night are just down right retarded and something Valencia would never get aimed at him despite his horror show yesterday.

Nani just gets on some people's tits, we know that.
 
Hectic said:
Taking just yesterday's game alone, it's a good example of how he's perceived in general. Yes, with more discipline and consistency in the basics, Nani wouldn't have frustrated as much, but at the same time, he produced more clear-cut goal scoring oppertunites than anyone on the pitch. Surely the parts where he frustrated take a back seat to the chances he made? I can't see that much room for criticism to be honest, he wasted some oppertunities going forward, but he also provided about 5 chances for goals, I accept that return.

Just like with Giggs and his final ball, or Valencia and his crossing, usually he puts in a lot of crosses, and some of them aren't effective, but obviously he needs to put in the attempts for at least one to come off. Yesterday none of those came off for Valencia, but you see nothing of that frustration, because it's afforded to him. I see the same thing with Nani, except it's not with crossing but decision making. At times, first half in particular it was very poor, however overall, his decision making yesterday could have resulted in five goals....

Now you can't argue it wouldn't be better for him to sort out some of the easier stuff, but why pick up on the frustrating parts from a game like yesterday, which in all come completely second to the numerous chances he created? Maybe he would have had 10 chances created then? I get the frustration at him, I really do, but in the context of a match like yesterday where he puts that many goals on a plate, is it really that relevant?

Would we still have the frustration talks if he had 5 assists yesterday? It seems a strange thing to focus on the frustration side of it when there were so many highlights to his game. Again, if yesterday was a typical example of how he could play, would that not be incredible? You would ignore the times he frustrates because of the overall contribution he gives, we saw this in countless games last year with Rooney for example and how his end product overshadowed the fact he was missing in many of those games. It didn't seem to matter though, because the goals were what counted, and I agree with that.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I think frustation is very valid, but I just don't see it in yesterday's game, because Nani did create so many chances. If he hadn't, then I'd whole-heartedly agree, but given it is over 90 minutes, not the first half, he finished the game as someone who should have been the provider of at least 3-4 goals, which all it all is pretty good. I'd get this criticism from some of his other recent games, where poor decision making resulted in very few or wasted chances for others.
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Agreed.

Also there is no doubt Nani is one of the most disliked United player for United fans for some reason.

There is no doubt Nani can improve parts of his game but when it comes to Nani, one or two poor crosses or decisions and he gets crucified. Haven't seen this happen here with other players.

So in short, Nani should have a 100% shot, pass, cross record?

Also one thing if it frustrates me for Nani which are the corners.His corners are fecking awful I agree. Why doesn't anyone from the coaching staff see this?
 
jdmufc said:
I've had enough of this, Nani is tearing the Caf apart, sell the underperforming fecker so we can have Caf harmony again.
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Nooooooooooo! I'd have to dismantle my shrine to Nani, and the accompanying statue then. It took ages to glue all that mashed potato together.
 
moses said:
this thread

Satement - "Nani has facets of his play I don't like"

Counter - "No he doesn't and so has Rooney"
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I think it's more the snide comments and sentences you mix inbetween your arguments that get picked up (in my case, it was your "nani creating chances for others to miss is like Liverpool hitting the post analogy), which give people the impression you are disliking him more than the sensible point you claim you are making.
 
moses said:
this thread

Satement - "Nani has facets of his play I don't like"

Counter - "No he doesn't and so has Rooney"
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:lol: I'd say this...

moses said:
this thread

Satement - "Nani has so, so, so many!1!! facets of his play I don't like"

Counter - "so has Rooney"
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is a little bit more accurate :D
 
People seem to be defending Nani over some imaginary criticisms. Where are all the posts slating Nani? Reading the thread seems like around 75% thought he was very good and the rest that he was okay but made some shit decisions, which he did.
 
moses said:
this thread

Satement - "Nani has facets of his play I don't like"

Counter - "No he doesn't and so has Rooney"
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I'm not sure who you're referring to. Either someone else has said that or you're just grated people aren't agreeing with you. Look at my response to your last post aimed at me. I clearly acknowledge his flaws and even state them out.

My general point is that despite his flaws he is a class player. And that I don't agree with some of your criticisms regarding him such as him being bad for our cohesiveness. People can't disagree with your criticisms? Or people can't disagree with your evaluation of the impact of those flaws on his overall level as a player?
 
Cold_Boy said:
Agreed.

Also there is no doubt Nani is one of the most disliked United player for United fans for some reason.
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Which I've always found baffling. He has that special spark that very few players have. I love watching him play football, the good, the bad and the ugly. When he's on form he's one of the top 3 players in the squad, with Rooney/RVP ahead of him.
 
Theon said:
People seem to be defending Nani over some imaginary criticisms. Where are all the posts slating Nani? Reading the thread seems like around 75% thought he was very good and the rest that he was okay but made some shit decisions, which he did.
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Name names.

I've only defended Nani when quoting people so there's no chance of imaginary criticisms.
 
And we really need to find someone else to take over corner duty. Nani is terrible at it.
 
RedSky At Night said:
Which I've always found baffling. He has that special spark that very few players have. I love watching him play football, the good, the bad and the ugly. When he's on form he's one of the top 3 players in the squad, with Rooney/RVP ahead of him.
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a lot of it stems from his first few seasons with us where all he did was dive/fall over and then sit there moaning for ten minutes, tbf to the ugly fecker he has to a huge extent cut this out of his game.


but when he's off form he's one of the bottom 3 players in our squad.


we either have to take the good with the bad or much to steves mash potato statues dismay, get rid.

i wouldn't be too upset either way.
 
Theon said:
People seem to be defending Nani over some imaginary criticisms. Where are all the posts slating Nani? Reading the thread seems like around 75% thought he was very good and the rest that he was okay but made some shit decisions, which he did.
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So then 25% said he was shite! And that's what we're defending, not the fact that he played very well and made a couple of poor decisions, cause anyone with that view is well, correct.
 
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