Maguire | he stays!

[Cassidy]

Why would we do that? We pay him 15m and get no sale fees. Better to let him rot training with the reserves. It costs us the same except we don't have 15m sitting in our back pocket right now.

He’ll be sold and we’ll pay him too is what I meant

 

[clarkydaz]

Maguire was a useful cog in Ole's machine for his first two full seasons that saw back to back top 3 finishes. That's clearly not inept for either manager or player.

Ole was then sacked after 5 PL losses into his third season. Everything that's happened to Maguire since then has been under Rangnick (an actual inept manager) and EtH.

He was crap under plenty of Ole, hence the debate about players being undroppable. Shifting the goalposts saying it all unravelled under Rangnick is laughable

 

[Ananke]

Of course it is your right. It just makes you a hypocrite

Booing a player makes someone a hypocrite?

 

[Redlyn]

Of course it is your right. It just makes you a hypocrite

Sure, if you say so, it must be so. I mean we already established your opinion is the only right one.

 

[RedDevil@84]

His contract will be terminated and he’ll get his 15m

Only if we can find a backup.

 

[Cassidy]

Only if we can find a backup.

I think we already had, but we wanted the Maguire fee to cover if and so did want to pay him (rightly so)
I think we’ll give in later in the window and fork out more money like last summer.

 

[Red in STL]

Only if we can find a backup.

If his contract is terminated then we don't get a transfer fee so that makes zero sense

 

[windycityfan]

Good to at least know we’ll be doing everything we can to, at worst not see him sub in again, at best end this charade of a tenure.

How I wish we could go back to when West Ham offered that deal package.

 

[Gandalf]

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that.

So in theory, Maguire's £26m book value and (worst case scenario, assuming Custis isn't a complete lying fat cnut) £15m pay off would still be recorded as a net profit of £9m as we'd be fecking off his £20m wages over two seasons and receiving a transfer fee of £30m from West Ham? It doesn't seem right, we'd surely be mental not to pay him off now?

I think that for the purposes of this season though we would only be looking at 1 years salary saved so back to 30M fee plus 10M wages saved in this years accounts offset by the 26M amoritization hit leaves a positive balance of 14M. If we payoff Harry that comes out of the 14M so anywhere from 7M to 15M depending on who you believe and that is in essence what is killing any chance of a deal.

The Glazers are clearly not willing to sanction any more spending this summer that is not paid for by sales. Presumably a 14M profit on Harry is enough as we can spread the cost of his replacement through amoritization and that is why we said yes to 30M. The request for a payoff though will not leave enough of a positive balance on the trade for us to bring in a replacement so if we pay Harry off we are down to 3 senior CBs plus Shaw.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I think that for the purposes of this season though we would only be looking at 1 years salary saved so back to 30M fee plus 10M wages saved in this years accounts offset by the 26M amoritization hit leaves a positive balance of 14M. If we payoff Harry that comes out of the 14M so anywhere from 7M to 15M depending on who you believe and that is in essence what is killing any chance of a deal.

The Glazers are clearly not willing to sanction any more spending this summer that is not paid for by sales. Presumably a 14M profit on Harry is enough as we can spread the cost of his replacement through amoritization and that is why we said yes to 30M. The request for a payoff though will not leave enough of a positive balance on the trade for us to bring in a replacement so if we pay Harry off we are down to 3 senior CBs plus Shaw.

You also need to account for the fact that if he stays we also amortize 13m of his transfer fee this year, an additional expense on the books.

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[davidmichael]

I’m hoping ETH doesn’t pick Maguire for the remaining games of the transfer window so Maguire sees it’s either he moves on or he spends the season in the reserves thus meaning he’s pretty much certain to lose his England place, either Maguire doesn’t want to leave because he’s money orientated or he has a serious inability to read the room.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Huh? Then why was Maguire in the matchday squad? Keep naming him to squads and of course he's going to think he can fight for his place.

 

[MackRobinson]

Fixed it for you.
Not really owed per se since he hasn't yet earned it. That's why is negotiated. By the way why don't these contracts just have clear separation clauses to avoid much ado.

He should give up guaranteed money b/c the fans are being mean to him? I know I sure wouldn't.

That's called a non-guaranteed contract and no player would sign that when they can get a guaranteed one.

 

[Leftback99]

Jac Talbot from transfersdotcom would know.

 

[Redlyn]

He should give up guaranteed money b/c the fans are being mean to him? I know I sure wouldn't.

That's called a non-guaranteed contract and no player would sign that when they can get a guaranteed one.

I don't even know what that means. I think you are barking up the wrong tree. My issue is him wanting far more overall (pay off + new contract) while getting huge cash upfront. What has he given up in that case? Instead he is looking to gain massively. So the options are fleece the club or stay and stink up the place. I guess we are going with the latter. So be it.

Release clauses exist for player to exit. So I was wondering if there any win win clause that allows the club to exit without one party necessarily being the big winner (as harry would be in this case if his demands are met). Does this exist anywhere.

 

[Alemar]

Jac Talbot from transfersdotcom would know.

Why wouldn’t he? Entire Caf knows it just the same, it’s blatantly obvious for those who watch United

 

[MackRobinson]

I don't even know what that means. I think you are barking up the wrong tree. My issue is him wanting far more overall (pay off + new contract) while getting huge cash upfront. What has he given up in that case? Instead he is looking to gain massively. So the options are fleece the club or stay and stink up the place. I guess we are going with the latter. So be it.

Release clauses exist for player to exit. So I was wondering if there any win win clause that allows the club to exit without one party necessarily being the big winner (as harry would be in this case if his demands are met). Does this exist anywhere.

First Bolded: How do you know you figure he wants more money overall?
Second Bolded: I already told you. It's called a non-guaranteed contract.

 

[Redlyn]

First Bolded: How do you know you figure he wants more money overall?
Second Bolded: I already told you. It's called a non-guaranteed contract.

No one knows anything more than reports. If 15m being reported is true then I hold the position I have made. So it's a more of an academic/hypothetical discussion than a factual one. Eventually the facts will come out.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

You’ve got feck all evidence he’s requesting £15m other than the Scum newspaper. If you want to start believing stories and calling him a wanker for it at least back them up with reliable sources.

It doesn't matter whether it is £7m or £15m as the negotiation broke down in the end. May be £15m was the figure used by Maguire's party in the initial phase of negotiation, who knows? In the end both parties failed to make a deal. The quoted figures are all rumors anyway.

 

[Alemar]

The quoted figures are all rumors anyway.

There is no smoke without fire. Even if exact figures are incorrect, it doesn’t change much - the principle is the same.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Jac Talbot knows everything

 

[ThierryHenry14]

Fair point, in my figures I failed to account for the amortization that would occur if he stayed, so in reality the net benefit from selling him would be even larger.

Stay:
-23m this season (-13m amort, -10m wage)
-23m next season
Total: -46m

Leave, assuming one-time payoff of 7m:
-3m this season (-26m writedown, -7m payoff, +30m transfer fee)
0m next season
Total: -3m

Net benefit of 20m this season and 23m next season.

Leave, with worst-case scenario of recurring 15m payoff:
-11m this season (-26m writedown, -15m payoff, +30m transfer fee)
-15m next season
Total: -26m

Net benefit of 12m this season and 8m next season.

Selling him and paying him off is a no-brainer.

Disclaimer: I am dumb, somebody please check my numbers

This math doesn't include the loyalty bonus, and assume he will rot in reserve and play sparely in the next 2 seasons. Again I am surprised by this as it makes so much sense for both parties to make this deal happen.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

No idea who this guy is but I believe him.

 

[JediSith]

Maguire was a useful cog in Ole's machine for his first two full seasons that saw back to back top 3 finishes. That's clearly not inept for either manager or player.

Ole was then sacked after 5 PL losses into his third season. Everything that's happened to Maguire since then has been under Rangnick (an actual inept manager) and EtH.

Let’s not change history.

Rojo’s interview where he said he went to speak to Ole because Maguire was always making mistakes but still starting and and he felt he deserved a start only to be told by Ole “we paid a lot for him so he has to play”

 

[Big Ben Foster]

This math doesn't include the loyalty bonus, and assume he will rot in reserve and play sparely in the next 2 seasons. Again I am surprised by this as it makes so much sense for both parties to make this deal happen.

Yes I mentioned the playing time assumption in the original post. If we're weighing up a replacement, any associated costs will also have to be factored in.

Loyalty bonus, from what I've heard, is included in the 7-15m payoff figures that have been thrown around.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

Loyalty bonus, from what I've heard, is included in the 7-15m payoff figures that have been thrown around.

There is still 2 weeks left in the window. In my opinion Man Utd is lucky to have West Ham interested in his service as it is probably not a very good investment for them to bring in a 30 year old CB with no resale value.

 

[AneRu]

This math doesn't include the loyalty bonus, and assume he will rot in reserve and play sparely in the next 2 seasons. Again I am surprised by this as it makes so much sense for both parties to make this deal happen.

I think he was set to leave but Bayern's demands for Pavard threw a spanner in the works resulting in us recognising that whatever we would end up getting from West Ham for Harry wouldn't pay for his replacement given that we also want more signings. ETH's 'leave if you aren't confident of fighting for a place' sort of emboldened Maguire, gave him belief that there was a chance and he upped his demands.

This way he can face his critics and say the manager wants me and I want to fight for my place, I am one of the leaders, longest serving Captain since Rooney. ETH will always maintain that Maguire is a valued first team player, he is one of us and remains committed to fight for his place. One or two good performances and the negativity will die down, we see through the season and review the issue next summer.

 

[ThierryHenry14]

I think he was set to leave but Bayern's demands for Pavard threw a spanner in the works resulting in us recognising that whatever we would end up getting from West Ham for Harry wouldn't pay for his replacement given that we also want more signings.

This argument doesn't quite stand as he will rot in reserve, not allow to enter training facility, and never wear Man Utd jersey in the field again if he stays according to redcafe. You don't need to replace someone who will never play.

 

[Katy Cat]

First post here, extended from what I wrote in the newbie forum...

Gosh, Harry Maguire, where to start? I'm not wild about him - he's not a terrible player (really, he's not) but he was a terrible signing. He's a textbook example of the hype that too often surrounds England (E-N-G-E-R-L-A-N-D?). Hype fuelled by the usual suspects in the tabloid media. Like The Sun. Honestly, savvy recruiters should always have red flags on newbie, now 'world class', England players. All the more as, outside of tournament end stages, international games are low-grade.

Harry was the exception to the Tarkowskis, the Dan Burns and the Ben Mee types - for the record, all pretty decent players - because he got picked, stayed put and scored headers, all at a time when England got better and became likeable. Unfortunately for us, it coincided with a time when were desperate to be seen to get the next Big Thing as a central defender, someone who chose Utd, someone we could style as the next VVD. Our very own transformational leader.

He's been bit a bit unlucky with the manager churn, the shift in systems and the whole captaincy thing, but the reality is that he's never had much pace and is devoid of any mobility. His confidence has disintegrated - he very obviously lacks trust in other players - and we're now at the liability stage.

It's on him and his advisors from here but you hope he goes and there's a deal to be done. It's right for us (we get something back on a rapidly declining asset); right for a team like WHU (he'd be OK for them); and right for him (a chance to repair his reputation and retain favour with Gareth).

 

[united_99]

When I read the thread title Harry vs Sun Readers I thought Maguire was arguing on social media with fans who would be abusing him after believing the Sun article.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

I don't even know what that means. I think you are barking up the wrong tree. My issue is him wanting far more overall (pay off + new contract) while getting huge cash upfront. What has he given up in that case? Instead he is looking to gain massively. So the options are fleece the club or stay and stink up the place. I guess we are going with the latter. So be it.

Release clauses exist for player to exit. So I was wondering if there any win win clause that allows the club to exit without one party necessarily being the big winner (as harry would be in this case if his demands are met). Does this exist anywhere.

Just on the contract part.

In pro football contracts, they basically boil down to:

- on the club side, once the player signs on the dotted line, he gives up his time for the duration of the contract to the club, that includes training sessions, football matches, travel, etc..., Regardless of his status, whether he is a regular starter, rotation, bench player or sent to the u21.

- on the player side, he is entitled to every penny in the contract as long as the contract is valid, no such thing as eerned not earned, once the club and player sign that contract, the player is entitled to the entirety of the money stipulated in that contract

From there, everything is then negotiable, if the club wants a player to leave, he is entitled to ask for every penny of the current contract, if the player wants to leave, the club is entitled to ask for any fee, so to facilitate an exit, both sides (club and player) must negotiate, sometimes a player would be getting a bigger contract in the next club so normally he wouldn't ask for the reminder of his contract to be paid upfront because the selling club can say no and he would risk losing the bigger contract, on the flip side, a club may offer an upfront of reminder of the contract (or part of it) to incentivise the player to move on to another club that is offering less money, and sometimes a player who could be moving to lesser team and will surely get lesser money might ask his current club to let him go for free or small fee, there are also other possibilities, but purely on principles of agreement in the contract, both sides have entitlements and a negotiation is needed to reach a compromise.

Now back to Maguire, not sure what's true but on principle, he is entitled to demand the money that remains in his current contract (or at least the difference) if he is going to a club that will pay him less than what he currently earns.

 

[Paul778]

First post here, extended from what I wrote in the newbie forum...

Gosh, Harry Maguire, where to start? I'm not wild about him - he's not a terrible player (really, he's not) but he was a terrible signing. He's a textbook example of the hype that too often surrounds England (E-N-G-E-R-L-A-N-D?). Hype fuelled by the usual suspects in the tabloid media. Like The Sun. Honestly, savvy recruiters should always have red flags on newbie, now 'world class' England players. All the more as, outside of tournament end stages, international games are low-grade.

Harry was the exception to the Tarkowskis, the Dan Burns and the Ben See types - for the record, all pretty decent players - because he got picked, stayed put and scored headers, all at a time when England got better and became likeable. Unfortunately for us, it coincided with a time when were desperate to be seen to get the next Big Thing as a central defender, someone who chose Utd, someone we could style as the next VVD. Our very own transformational leader.

He's been bit a bit unlucky with the manager churn, the shift in systems and the whole captaincy thing, but the reality is that he's never had much pace and is devoid of any mobility. His confidence has disintegrated - he very obviously lacks trust in other players - and we're now at the liability stage.

It's on him and his advisors from here but you hope he goes and there's a deal to be done. It's right for us (we get something back on a rapidly declining asset); right for a team like WHU (he'd be OK for them); and right for him (a chance to repair his reputation and retain favour with Gareth).

All very well and I agree from a purely football perspective.

However, his next contract will be his last big one. He clearly knows that United will not renew at anything near his current terms. So I'm sure his agents have advised him to run down his current contract and move on a free in the hope of getting one last big payday.

Of course this is completely delusional. His pace (or lack of it) is already on the decline and being a bit part player for two seasons will shoot this wonderful plan in the foot. West Ham will offer him, what, 120k/week right now. Two years older with little game time and more and more meme time, he could very easily end up in the boat that Lingard is in right now.

It feels like he's listening to unreliable voices in his entourage be it his agents or maybe just his ego.

 

[Kellyiom]

Harry may well have concluded that he’s already lost his place in the NT and if that’s the case all he’s got left is a vacuum cleaner that specializes in hoovering cash.

And it’s hard to see Harry having any kind of future career in management, punditry or consulting.

I could see him doing the old, retro style thing of owning a gastropub with guest craft ales at £10 a pint and ploughman's lunches for £25.

 

[USREDEVIL]

I could see him doing the old, retro style thing of owning a gastropub with guest craft ales at £10 a pint and ploughman's lunches for £25.

No greeks allowed.

 

[clarkydaz]

He's been bit a bit unlucky with the manager churn, the shift in systems and the whole captaincy thing, but the reality is that he's never had much pace and is devoid of any mobility. His confidence has disintegrated - he very obviously lacks trust in other players - and we're now at the liability stage.

It's on him and his advisors from here but you hope he goes and there's a deal to be done. It's right for us (we get something back on a rapidly declining asset); right for a team like WHU (he'd be OK for them); and right for him (a chance to repair his reputation and retain favour with Gareth).

Which makes you wonder why he didnt start afresh and resurrect his career somewhere he is wanted. Why stay where the manager doesnt really rate you, and will do his best not to use you

 

[USREDEVIL]

Harry Maguire, the Charlie Brown of English Football. good grief.

 

[Redlyn]

Just on the contract part.

In pro football contracts, they basically boil down to:

- on the club side, once the player signs on the dotted line, he gives up his time for the duration of the contract to the club, that includes training sessions, football matches, travel, etc..., Regardless of his status, whether he is a regular starter, rotation, bench player or sent to the u21.

- on the player side, he is entitled to every penny in the contract as long as the contract is valid, no such thing as eerned not earned, once the club and player sign that contract, the player is entitled to the entirety of the money stipulated in that contract

From there, everything is then negotiable, if the club wants a player to leave, he is entitled to ask for every penny of the current contract, if the player wants to leave, the club is entitled to ask for any fee, so to facilitate an exit, both sides (club and player) must negotiate, sometimes a player would be getting a bigger contract in the next club so normally he wouldn't ask for the reminder of his contract to be paid upfront because the selling club can say no and he would risk losing the bigger contract, on the flip side, a club may offer an upfront of reminder of the contract (or part of it) to incentivise the player to move on to another club that is offering less money, and sometimes a player who could be moving to lesser team and will surely get lesser money might ask his current club to let him go for free or small fee, there are also other possibilities, but purely on principles of agreement in the contract, both sides have entitlements and a negotiation is needed to reach a compromise.

Now back to Maguire, not sure what's true but on principle, he is entitled to demand the money that remains in his current contract (or at least the difference) if he is going to a club that will pay him less than what he currently earns.

Ok thanks for this. I guess it doesn't really happen for a club to have an exit clause. The only way is to reach an agreement for the player to leave.

 

[Redlyn]

I was just thinking of another angle here. Lets assume united is paying him 10m a year, so 20m over 2 years. Now west ham is offering 6m so basically 12m for the same period. If he was paid out the difference it would be 8m. However in 2 years the scenario would be different if he stayed as he would leave as a free agent and maybe get a sign on bonus to sign elsewhere say 7m bringing his total package to 27m at the start of the 3rd season.

While if he moved now for a fee he would lose that sign on bonus opportunity in 2 years and basically be stuck with his 20m payout+salary. To compensate, the club would need to pay up say 15m now instead of 8m. So in short this whole thing is more complex than we think probably.

 

[adexkola]

I was just thinking of another angle here. Lets assume united is paying him 10m a year, so 20m over 2 years. Now west ham is offering 6m so basically 12m for the same period. If he was paid out the difference it would be 8m. However in 2 years the scenario would be different if he stayed as he would leave as a free agent and maybe get a sign on bonus to sign elsewhere say 7m bringing his total package to 27m at the start of the 3rd season.

While if he moved now for a fee he would lose that sign on bonus opportunity in 2 years and basically be stuck with his 20m payout+salary. To compensate, the club would need to pay up say 15m now instead of 8m. So in short this whole thing is more complex than we think probably.

Good point. I'm sure his advisors are considering more angles than we are (and who knows whether Maguire has an assurance from Southgate regarding Euro 2024 in the back pocket already).